New Naim NDX

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Originally posted by Peter Dinh:

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Originally posted by AMA:

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So it works like a Logitech Transporter but better?

I can't see where it is better than Logitech TP (designed 7 years back BTW).

It can make a better sound? No?

I doubt NDX sounds better than TP->nDAC (Naim suggest nDAC as an upgrade to NDX).
Possibly NDX->nDAC can be a rival to my current setup. There is only one way to check this up.

I was at the show in Manchester, for me the highlights were the Audio Note, Pure Sound and Naim rooms.

I am quite new to Naim, hence not able to make direct comparisons between sources. The room was certainly not ideal, being L-shaped. The choice of components was interesting - an HDX (in a cupboard) was used as a server for the NDX, and this fed into the DAC. An XPS powered the NDX, suprisingly not the DAC. Then a bare 202/200 and the new S-400's, powerlines were used throughout it think.

IMO it all sounded very good, if a bit forceful at times, but when I returned for a second listen it seemed more analogue (maybe the music, or the effects of lunch). All the usual Naim attributes were certainly there and detail never got in the way of music making. It would have been nice to hear the NDX without the DAC.

I'm not sure how the NDX and HDX compare, but at some point in the distant future I plan to complete my system with a Naim source it seems confusing and not an easy choice, but based on simplicity I'd go with an HDX or CDS3!

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Originally posted by jon_jh:
I was at the show in Manchester, for me the highlights were the Audio Note, Pure Sound and Naim rooms.

I am quite new to Naim, hence not able to make direct comparisons between sources. The room was certainly not ideal, being L-shaped. The choice of components was interesting - an HDX (in a cupboard) was used as a server for the NDX, and this fed into the DAC. An XPS powered the NDX, suprisingly not the DAC. Then a bare 202/200 and the new S-400's, powerlines were used throughout it think.

IMO it all sounded very good, if a bit forceful at times, but when I returned for a second listen it seemed more analogue (maybe the music, or the effects of lunch). All the usual Naim attributes were certainly there and detail never got in the way of music making. It would have been nice to hear the NDX without the DAC.

I'm not sure how the NDX and HDX compare, but at some point in the distant future I plan to complete my system with a Naim source it seems confusing and not an easy choice, but based on simplicity I'd go with an HDX or CDS3!

Did anybody from Naim give any indication of when it may be available?

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Originally posted by jon_jh:
The choice of components was interesting - an HDX (in a cupboard) was used as a server for the NDX, and this fed into the DAC. An XPS powered the NDX, suprisingly not the DAC. ... I plan to complete my system with a Naim source it seems confusing and not an easy choice, but based on simplicity I'd go with an HDX or CDS3!

Naim should demo the NDX with off the shelf UPNP servers just the same as Linn would with their devices.

Were they using an iPod touch?

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Originally posted by jon_jh:...An XPS powered the NDX, suprisingly not the DAC....

Hi Jon_jh -

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the report!

Did you ask anyone why this was so? Seems like a major oversight to me.

Using the HDX as an example, and given it is only being used to stream digital output to the DAC, my understanding is that the PS upgrade would do nothing for the NDX.

Hook

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Did anybody from Naim give any indication of when it may be available?

Forgot to ask that one!

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Naim should demo the NDX with off the shelf UPNP servers just the same as Linn would with their devices.

The representatives implied that the NDX would not sound as good when fed from a NAS UPNP server. Why this would be I don't know, but maybe indirectly could have something to do with the 'superior' ripping ability of the NDX?

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Were they using an iPod touch?

Not as a digital source, but iPhone and iTouch were used to control the NDX. Apparently, an iTouch specific app is in the pipeline.

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Did you ask anyone why this was so? Seems like a major oversight to me.

Using the HDX as an example, and given it is only being used to stream digital output to the DAC, my understanding is that the PS upgrade would do nothing for the NDX.

Thanks for the welcome Hook.

I did ask about the XPS placement and the answer given was that using it to power the NDX removed power supply noise from upstream of the DAC. They found it to be more beneficial on the NDX than the DAC in that particular room. As you say, I don't understand why this goes against experience with the HDX, DAC and PS.

Jonathan

Thanks for the followup Jon.

Hi! Did you mean to say iPad-app is in the pipeline?

From a developers POV there is no diff between iphone and ipod touch for this class of application. It will be the same app in both source and binary for both iphone and ipod touch.

Sorry for the nitpicking but I'm just curious about support for the iPad from Naim!!

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Originally posted by jon_jh:
Not as a digital source, but iPhone and iTouch were used to control the NDX. Apparently, an iTouch specific app is in the pipeline.

Sorry for the confusion, I did mean iPad-app!

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Originally posted by jon_jh:
...
I did ask about the XPS placement and the answer given was that using it to power the NDX removed power supply noise from upstream of the DAC. They found it to be more beneficial on the NDX than the DAC in that particular room. As you say, I don't understand why this goes against experience with the HDX, DAC and PS.

Jonathan

Thanks again Jonathan! Did you notice how the NDX was connected to the DAC? Am guessing BNC? Might have been more practical using the Toslink connection if noise was such an issue.

Am I the only other person that finds this extraordinary? Cannot imagine too many going for the maximum config: NDX/555PS/DAC/555PS.

This has to be one of the boldest statements yet made about sources for the Naim DAC having the ability to sound different!

Hook

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Originally posted by Plinko:
Naim should demo the NDX with off the shelf UPNP servers just the same as Linn would with their devices.

Why do that when you make (as an actual server) a superior product?

We showed a bare NDX fed by a UnitiServe (75 ohm BNC as well as over the network) and it more than acquitted its performance versus a CDX2.

because not everyone who buys a NDX is going to use a HDX or Unitiserve and the reasons there should be obvious...just get an HDX and skip the NDX, no? (that can of worms was probably discussed already)

and because it would be nice to know how well off-shelf UPNP serving products are working with Naim streaming products. demoing this at a show with it's inherent publicity breeds confidence.

and btw, yes CDX2 is a nice bar for such a product as the NDX, which offers superior functionality. no small achievement!

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Originally posted by Plinko:
can of worms

Love my HDX

Regards,
Michel

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Why do that when you make (as an actual server) a superior product?

So David, if we take ripping out of the equation as that's a whole different ball game ...

Say you have a downloaded album from the Naim labal and it resides on a NAS are you saying ( on pure SQ grounds) that the HDX serving this file to the NDX would be a superior UPnP server to say Twonky (or any other UPnP server) serving this album out to the NDX. I'm sure you're not but i just wanted to check ?

James

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Did you notice how the NDX was connected to the DAC? Am guessing BNC?

Pretty sure it was BNC

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Originally posted by james n:

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Why do that when you make (as an actual server) a superior product?

So David, if we take ripping out of the equation as that's a whole different ball game ...

Say you have a downloaded album from the Naim labal and it resides on a NAS are you saying ( on pure SQ grounds) that the HDX serving this file to the NDX would be a superior UPnP server to say Twonky (or any other UPnP server) serving this album out to the NDX. I'm sure you're not but i just wanted to check ?

James

Yep–you fell into that one–if you look at the files downloaded from the Naim Label download store, you will notice that there are additional metadata files included which, when installed into the same directory as the audio files, provide the Naim servers with extended metadata that you will NOT get with an out-of-box configuration of Twonky, sorry.

The structure of the server utilizes these additional relational arguments to provide a browse tree that requires no additional "custom trees" to be created on the part of the end user, i.e., it just works. (Of course, disc ripping works in the same way.)

Unlike Twonky, files which are located elsewhere from the internal storage pool can also be added (without re-location), embedded tags parsed and added to the searchable relational database–simply by enabling Network Share access to the files' location (as a shared folder) from the Naim server (can be performed using a web browser).

Again–and I've said this before on another post–ease of use is a buyer's consideration that (in spite of one's own capability to create cost-effective workarounds) differentiates products within the outer market, especially as a complete out-of-box solution.

That is the reason why the Naim servers make great demonstration tools for UPnP streaming players, and, as such, I see no reason to demonstrate using a less-suitable tool.

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Originally posted by jon_jh:

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Did you notice how the NDX was connected to the DAC? Am guessing BNC?

Pretty sure it was BNC

Not sure about the Manchester Show, but ours was connected to the NDX digital inputs via BNC – system given below:



We did three or four different demos, depending on the crowd:

1. CDX2 via Hi-Line DIN connected to analogue outputs
1b. CDX2 via DC1-BNC connected to NDX digital input
2. UnitiServe-SSD via DC1-BNC connected to NDX digital input
3. NDX playback of UnitiServe UPnP stream across the network (wired Ethernet)

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Originally posted by ghook2020:
Using the HDX as an example, and given it is only being used to stream digital output to the DAC, my understanding is that the PS upgrade would do nothing for the NDX.
Hook

Unlike the HDX, the NDX can be fully operated off an external XPS or 555PS supply without requiring a persistent mains connection (i.e., just like a CDX2), "brains" style (i.e., can be set on rack with externally-powered preamp).

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From James n:-
So David, if we take ripping out of the equation as that's a whole different ball game ...

Say you have a downloaded album from the Naim labal and it resides on a NAS are you saying ( on pure SQ grounds) that the HDX serving this file to the NDX would be a superior UPnP server to say Twonky (or any other UPnP server) serving this album out to the NDX. I'm sure you're not but i just wanted to check ?

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Reply from David Dever:-
Yep–you fell into that one–if you look at the files downloaded from the Naim Label download store, you will notice that there are additional metadata files included which, when installed into the same directory as the audio files, provide the Naim servers with extended metadata that you will NOT get with an out-of-box configuration of Twonky, sorry.

The structure of the server utilizes these additional relational arguments to provide a browse tree that requires no additional "custom trees" to be created on the part of the end user, i.e., it just works. (Of course, disc ripping works in the same way.)

All well and good David but...excuse me if I am being thick here but extended metadata does not affect the bits in a streamed file and the resultant sound surely.

In which case James is right...correct?

regards
Geoff

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Originally posted by AllenB:...
As this is the NDX thread, can anyone see any advantages of an NDX over the Qute in my proposed set up (with Serve and all through the nDAC), I have looked very hard at it, weighed it up and see none, but I would be interested to hear other views.

Allen

Hi Allen -

To quote DD above: "...the NDX can be fully operated off an external XPS or 555PS supply without requiring a persistent mains connection (i.e., just like a CDX2), "brains" style (i.e., can be set on rack with externally-powered preamp)."

And to quote Jon_jh above: "...I did ask about the XPS placement and the answer given was that using it to power the NDX removed power supply noise from upstream of the DAC."

Sorry to keep harping on this, but unless someone corrects me, it is the closest thing I have seen to Naim suggesting that sources for the DAC can sound different. And in your case, Allen, it would suggest that an externally powered NDX's digital output could (should?) sound better than the UniQute's.

Hook

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Originally posted by ghook2020:
Sorry to keep harping on this, but unless someone corrects me, it is the closest thing I have seen to Naim suggesting that sources for the DAC can sound different. And in your case, Allen, it would suggest that an externally powered NDX's digital output could (should?) sound better than the UniQute's.

Hook

So as we have discussed many times since spdif conversion can be affected by psu quality a pure streamer with upgradable psu would make sense. But this reminds me again that the best approach would be integrating the streamer in the dac (a la Linn) because this way the spdif conversion is not needed (jitter-free network data is converted directly into a digital audio signal in order to be processed by the DAC).

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Originally posted by ghook2020:
And to quote Jon_jh above: "...I did ask about the XPS placement and the answer given was that using it to power the NDX removed power supply noise from upstream of the DAC."

I thought the 75 ohm BNC did that or provided a good decoupling (white paper). Goldfinch, is this wrong?

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Originally posted by goldfinch:
...
So as we have discussed many times since spdif conversion can be affected by psu quality a pure streamer with upgradable psu would make sense...

And as was discussed for weeks on multiple Naim DAC threads:

"...And all this "noise" translates into jitter - which is removed at the DAC as it reclocks."

Three guesses who I am quoting (hint: initials are AS).

Hence the reason why I am surprised to see the NDX being demo'ed with an external power supply while feeding a digital signal to the Naim DAC.

If the NDX's analog outputs were being used, then it makes sense (in the same way that adding an external PS to the DAC makes sense).

Hook

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Originally posted by Geoff P:

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From James n:-
So David, if we take ripping out of the equation as that's a whole different ball game ...

Say you have a downloaded album from the Naim labal and it resides on a NAS are you saying ( on pure SQ grounds) that the HDX serving this file to the NDX would be a superior UPnP server to say Twonky (or any other UPnP server) serving this album out to the NDX. I'm sure you're not but i just wanted to check ?

quote:

Reply from David Dever:-
Yep–you fell into that one–if you look at the files downloaded from the Naim Label download store, you will notice that there are additional metadata files included which, when installed into the same directory as the audio files, provide the Naim servers with extended metadata that you will NOT get with an out-of-box configuration of Twonky, sorry.

The structure of the server utilizes these additional relational arguments to provide a browse tree that requires no additional "custom trees" to be created on the part of the end user, i.e., it just works. (Of course, disc ripping works in the same way.)

All well and good David but...excuse me if I am being thick here but extended metadata does not affect the bits in a streamed file and the resultant sound surely.

In which case James is right...correct?

regards
Geoff

Hmm, I smell FUD. Surely James was asking about superior sound quality (please correct me if not). I think David's answer was something to do with convenience of setting up your music collection.
I'm no computer wizz, but Twonky with one of Brian's custom trees works for me, and was as easy to set up as HDX

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Originally posted by goldfinch:
But this reminds me again that the best approach would be integrating the streamer in the dac (a la Linn) because this way the spdif conversion is not needed (jitter-free network data is converted directly into a digital audio signal in order to be processed by the DAC).

Blimey, an epiphany. Can we make this a sticky?

Sorry, a bit in grumpy mode today - bloody parking wardens.......

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And as was discussed for weeks on multiple Naim DAC threads:

"...And all this "noise" translates into jitter - which is removed at the DAC as it reclocks."

Which is proven to be wrong and all the heralds of "transport-does-not-matter" message have disappeared after the first serious trials.