New Naim NDX

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or does a Linn DS needs a MajicServe, AkurateServe or KlimaxServe in order to sound 100 percent?

John, the forum members get very nervous when I rave about KDS

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Instead it can attack other components in the DAC - for example the analog stage.

I think we better stop here as I'm not well trained in magic and mystic.

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I think we better stop here as I'm not well trained in magic and mystic.

Could I second that suggestion? ....Lossing the will to live here guys.

Anyone heard when the NDX will be available?

Peter

I agree Peter.....November.

Justin

I think i meant Julember

Justin

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Originally posted by Justin9960:
I think i meant Julember

Justin

Thanks for that Justin......I fear I know what you mean. Oh well, I guess the government needs even more of my money.

Peter

PS. Seems I can't spell 'Loosing'

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John, the forum members get very nervous when I rave about KDS Winker

Well yeah!!!! The thing is like $18K or something. Bound to make people edgy.

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Originally posted by jerryct:
can someone explain me the benefit of the audio chain at manchester hdx->ndx->dac versus hdx->dac regarding sound quality? what is the added value of the ndx?

The NDX allows input and volume control of Naim preamplifiers and DAC. If you thought the R-COM was expensive think again

I can understand that you have feature benefits but my question was regarding sound quality.

I only wonder as this seems to be one of the first ndx demos if one can really "hear" the ndx in such an audio chain (... or do i miss something?).

O.K. I have not listened to the NDX but Naim are pitching it against CDX2 in both price point and preformance level, with the same upgrade paths.

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Mmh, but this does not prove your theory. Maybe its another influence and the audio signal shows otherwise differences!?

Does it matter why? Transports can sound different through the nDAC. It could be mains issues, RF, ground loops, jitter, errors, effects on the analog output, etc..... Who cares why?

Demo one versus another and make up your mind.

correct

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Or alternatively Naim units could all sound the same through the nDAC? (CDP's excluded)

You tell us

This NDX is sure getting some notice. If it is a very good Dac w/ 3-4 inputs, has an internet radio tuner, can find and stream any UPnP server, play iPods back at 24/192, and sound superb while doing it I may have to get one of these.

I can't imagine needing something else if it's as good as a CDX2 with normal files and better with 24/96 and cheaper to boot! All the fuss about if sounds like the Dac, etc. seems to be missing the point.

It is a 21st century source. Hook your computer up, stream files, plug in your iTouch, you name it, and it can be upgraded with a power supply if you feel. Simply attach to moderate priced seperates, say 202/200 and I can't imagine it wouldn't be sublime into a pair of S-400s. Maybe add a Serve someday somewhere on your network and voila! Nice, clean, no fuss system with huge performance for not stupid money.

I have not visited this post for a while and now this post has become too long for me to plow through.

From memory I believe the following were determined WRT nDAC and NDX:

1. The internals of the NDX is of similar design and grade to the nDAC
2. The NDX can be further improved by the nDAC, mostly due to further separation of the electronic components and power supplies
3. If connected that way (NDX+nDAC), supplying both units with XPS or even Supercap would further improve the performance.

If the above is correct, is it just me that find the above absurd and wasteful. What Naim is telling us is to buy the NDX with similar internals to the nDAC, connect it to the nDAC so all the expensive digital electronics and power supplies can be put to sleep, and get marginal improvements? Aside from the fact that Naim is asking customers to pay for expensive components only to disable most of it and pay for an “upgrade” with similar parts inside, isn’t this awfully wasteful of the planet’s resources?

If the separation is required for even better sound, why not do it right the first time and make the NDX and nDAC a kit without the redundant parts?

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If connected that way (NDX+nDAC), supplying both units with XPS or even Supercap would further improve the performance.

JYOW, you can't use SC to power either nDAC or NDX. But overall I agree with you -- NDX has a strong commercial agenda. I don't think there is technical issue to equip it with the same quality built-in DAC as external nDAC. And I don't think it relates to the cost increase.

But see what the others do -- like Linn. Do you know that the difference between ADS and KDS is just a pair of 200$ Lundhal transformers at the output and 2,000 $ aluminium casework. The circuit boards are identical. Even if doubled this can't explain the price difference between these two gears with KDS being seriously overpriced.

Yes Linn's product strategy is ridiculous. The Klimax casework cannot be worth that much, heck my Macbook Pro has nice unibody aluminum casework and costs not even $2K

Are we sure that the Klimax DS is a Akurate DS in disguise though except for the two pats you mentioned though?

One thing though, at least with the Linn DS you know what you are paying when you purchase the products.

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Originally posted by AMA:

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If connected that way (NDX+nDAC), supplying both units with XPS or even Supercap would further improve the performance.

JYOW, you can't use SC to power either nDAC or NDX. But overall I agree with you -- NDX has a strong commercial agenda. I don't think there is technical issue to equip it with the same quality built-in DAC as external nDAC. And I don't think it relates to the cost increase.

But see what the others do -- like Linn. Do you know that the difference between ADS and KDS is just a pair of 200$ Lundhal transformers at the output and 2,000 $ aluminium casework. The circuit boards are identical. Even if doubled this can't explain the price difference between these two gears with KDS being seriously overpriced.

You are wrong here, the KDS is not just a re-cased ADS - and remember, if you would not be so wilfully foolish - that the KDS was the very first streamer Linn released. The ADS was released well after the KDS.

Also, from what I'm gleaning is that the KDS still ultimately sounds better than the ADS-2. And Linn will obviously upgrade the KDS, it's just not clear when.

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heck my Macbook Pro has nice unibody aluminum casework and costs not even $2K

JYOW, the product price is an exponential function of production volume.
Production of Macbooks is thousand times higher than KDS
I figured this value out of the price difference between Akurate and Klimax cases for Radikal -- which we know differ in casework only I'm OK to accept 2 K$ cost of KDS box -- but it still does not explain the 12 K$ difference between KDS and ADS.

IMHO - and yes I have listened to MDS (because I'm a pauper) and ADS (because I'm aspirational) but not KDS (I'm not stupid) - Linn kit is overpriced and fussy.

Next - In the real world £3000 is high end and some of you need to get a grip.

Finally - since few have heard the NDX what are you all goin on about?

Tog

According to the Stereoplay Referenz review, quoted on the Linn website:

"When it came to the electronic innards, Stereoplay had to look very closely to discern the differences. Power supply: identical. Circuit board layout: identical twins ... In the population of the board, there are hardly any differences either. Both boards work with a Wolfson WM 8741 D/A converter (up to 192 kHz / 24 bits)...There is, however, one big difference: Klimax DS uses two high-end audio isolation transformers by Lundahl in its output stage"

I can't see how the isolation transformers can account for the huge price difference, and I can't believe that wastefully overengineered case is worth it either.

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I can't see how the isolation transformers can account for the huge price difference, and I can't believe that wastefully overengineered case is worth it either.

Exactly, Lundhal transformers provide a very sweat effect on the output stage -- they reduce noise (especially high freq grain and harshness) but possibly lose on transients. They are very well-known in SET setups and those upgrades cost something like 200 $ for a pair -- let it be 1 K$ in the production unit. The rest is the marketing -- Linn makes much more out of it

So that's how you make top class equipment?
Just open the case of a piece and copy it?

So you compared every component? All the same values and tolerances?

Could you spot the Dacs that NAIM for instance, reject as not being up to spec or for use in a lower quality product? I don't think so.

You mean the bits in the Akurate DS are below spec? Rejects? Second-rate? Duff? The case doesn't screen adequately? You mean the DACS have wide production tolerances? So they might drift off in use after they've been selected? If they wasted more machining time and material and machined the case from an even bigger lump of solid would it be even better? Hmmmm... I doubt the fancy casework made any difference to the CD12 either, except to make it unaffordable for more people.

In fairness I think that Linn/Naim do make a thorough selection of all parts in the top-end gears and this does translate into a musical performance. I know DIY engineers who build tube gears and the longest and the most complicated part of the building process is the selection and matching of the components. The labor cost could be very high -- just think how much are we ready to pay for a 15-years-experience engineer to complete 4 working days assembling one piece of KDS, passing through dozens of test points? The same for 552 or 500.