New Naim NDX

All those of you claiming that the KDS is so over priced and that it is virtually the same player as the ADS (based on some secondary descriptions of the electronics in some hifi magasine) have you actually listened to the KDS and the ADS and made a comparison of how the two players are able to play music?

My second question is to those who make is seem sooo easy and cheap to make a KDS (and comparisons with laptop from Apple etc), how come not all the other firms (and there are many of them out there) have already made much cheaper and better server based players if it is so easy and cheap technology? According to the comments above, you just put together some components and then Linn spends the rest on marketing. It just seems so easy that all hifi firms would just have to start up the assembly lines and collect the cash and make enormous profits.

If the KDS were in a cheaper case more people could afford it, and the performance wouldn't suffer in the slightest. And the people that can afford it would be able to have two!

quote:

Originally posted by naken janne:
All those of you claiming that the KDS is so over priced and that it is virtually the same player as the ADS (based on some secondary descriptions of the electronics in some hifi magasine) have you actually listened to the KDS and the ADS and made a comparison of how the two players are able to play music?

I did make a comparison of KDS with a stock Transporter with a friend who is a much more articulate listener than me. It was inconclusive, both my friend and I thought the KDS had a slightly "blacker" background. other than that, I brought my Transporter home with a smile on my face.

quote:

My second question is to those who make is seem sooo easy and cheap to make a KDS (and comparisons with laptop from Apple etc), how come not all the other firms (and there are many of them out there) have already made much cheaper and better server based players if it is so easy and cheap technology? According to the comments above, you just put together some components and then Linn spends the rest on marketing. It just seems so easy that all hifi firms would just have to start up the assembly lines and collect the cash and make enormous profits.

I do not think it is very easy to make a KDS case, but is it $15K+ difficult? Granted Linn is a smaller manufacturer without the economy of scale, but does it cost that much more? And if it does, does the sonic improvement equate to the price differential? Some manufacturers charge hundreds of dollars for a simple remote control which I assume has no impact on sound, I don't care if they lost money making that remote, it is just not worth it sonically, unless one considers the remote control jewelry.

In the KDS case, the aluminum structure should have impact on sound, but I think much of the price differential is based on market positioning. In this industry people associate price with quality, if a gear is not sufficiently priced people would not take it seriously. I bet most of us are guilty of the same, part of me would love to own the KDS even though I assume probably 90% of the high price is for the pride of ownership.

And regarding "cheaper and better server based players", everything is relative I guess, the Transporter is a very good network player, some people thought the US$1999 list price (about 12K street now?) was ridiculous, but for members of this forum it is lose change.

"but for members of this forum it is lose change."

Before we relinquish our grip on reality completely ...

1. No it's not
2. It's only playing music on a hifi - a bit of fun, not the Large Hadron Collider
3. See Item 1
4. What exactly is smart about using the size of your wallet as the sole measure of quality.

I'm off to see what kit they are using down the soup kitchen ... Guy down there has a new Krell..

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
If the KDS were in a cheaper case more people could afford it, and the performance wouldn't suffer in the slightest. And the people that can afford it would be able to have two!

I do not want to be rude, but.....Linn spent thousands of thousands of hours by some of the most skilled people and innovative firms in the industry developing this product twisting and turning every little detail on their way to acheive its goals both technicaly and comercialy. And now you think that you, with you armchair solution based on a short forum discussion, totally can change the entire cost benefit analysis of Linns enormous development work? Do you really believe that Linn does not think about all these issues and that you are able to cut Linns total cost of the KDS with 50% with the simple opinion "change to a cheaper box"?

@JYOW. I do not have the same experience as you do, since I have not been able to compare the Transporter and the KDS. But I have had the chance to compare a KDS with an ADS (in a Linn setting). The ADS is a very very good player, but no one in the room thought that it was anywhere close to the KDS. The difference was substantial. But since I have not compared the Transporter with a late spec ADS, I can not really comment on your results, so maybe the Transporter is a better player than a late ADS?

So which one would I buy of the ADS or KDS? (Hypothetical question, since I want to see what Naim comes up with first). Well that is more based on the buyer's economy than the product itself. Given my own personal economy, I would go for the ADS (or maybe even the MDS). It is a very good player, but if I were very very wealthy and did not have to worry too much about money, the KDS would have been my clear choice without any doubt. KDS is clearly better than the ADS. From an economic point of view though, the KDS is probably not a very cheap choice. It is an early product based on server technology which is evolving extremely fast, so soon there will be better (or cheaper with similar performance) from both Linn and other companies. Further we do not really know how this technology is going to develop, how the different functions will be split (just look at all the alternatives from Naim for example), will there be industry standards etc etc? So if you are concerned with your wallet, KDS (or any other of the really expensive server players for that matter) is probably not the best choice, since the trade in value of the KDS will probably be relatively low in a couple of years when the newer products offer more for less money. But if you feel that 15 000 usd is something you can spend without loosing your sleep (or if hifi is your life and you are willing to sacrifice other things in life) and want the very best Linn can offer, then the KDS is certainly the choise over the ADS and many others. So it all boils down to your personal preferences and how much you are willing to pay for the better music KDS is able to produce compared with ADS.

I agree with Tog on point number 3. Most everyone believes that more $ equals better sound, and that a much cheaper piece of equipment cannot produce a better sound. I wonder if we are preconditioned to hear better sound with higher price equipment, is there a strong dose of placebo effect in what we are hearing? Does a megabucks equipment with fancy looking case automatically escalates it to the next level?

Have we all seen below BBC program on illusions? Is hearing always believing?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...xtGdGw&feature=share

Similarly, Nespresso coffee served in their fancy cups seems to taste better, I am sure in some way our eyes and the price tag tells us it tastes better.

Clean car drives better too.

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I did make a comparison of KDS with a stock Transporter with a friend who is a much more articulate listener than me. It was inconclusive, both my friend and I thought the KDS had a slightly "blacker" background. other than that, I brought my Transporter home with a smile on my face.

+1. I did exactly the same about year ago. At the very least I would value TP through analogue output as good as ADS but smoother (closer to KDS presentation).

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I do not think it is very easy to make a KDS case, but is it $15K+ difficult?

JYOW, the price difference between ADS and KDS is about 11 K$ I guess it's comprised of 200 $ Lundhal transformers (Ok let it be 1 K$ for the whole set of the new parts), 2 K$ for the casework, 2 K$ for the 4-days routine selection/matching/assembling process of dedicated top-qualified engineer and 6 K$ a market margin which is further cut by VAT which is pain-in-the-*ss in UK.

You can be sure that buying KDS is not only your personal music enjoyment -- you contribute to the prosperity of Scotland!

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Originally posted by AMA:

quote:

I did make a comparison of KDS with a stock Transporter with a friend who is a much more articulate listener than me. It was inconclusive, both my friend and I thought the KDS had a slightly "blacker" background. other than that, I brought my Transporter home with a smile on my face.

+1. I did exactly the same about year ago. At the very least I would value TP through analogue output as good as ADS but smoother (closer to KDS presentation).

@AMA. Just out of curiousity, how do you fit HDX into this ranking? I read in an old post of yours where you compared burnt in HDX with a fresh out of the box KDS. Your conclusion was then:

"With full respect to HDX the Klimax was on heaven comparing to HDX in all aspects.
With my ears it was not different presentation -- it was different league.
Not sure -- but from my past experience it seems doubtful that 555PS is capable to bridge such a big gap.
Possibly new DAC/555PS will be able to rival Klimax DS -- we'll see..."

(here is the entire discussion: https://forums.naimaudio.com/ev...417/m/7212925627/p/1 )

When I read your comments today, it seems like you think that the transporter is fairly close to the KDS. So then I guess that you must be of the opinion that the Transporter is/was a much better product than the HDX? At previous reviews of the KDS you are not at all mentioning that it is overpriced, but now you are claiming that

"JYOW, the price difference between ADS and KDS is about 11 K$ I guess it's comprised of 200 $ Lundhal transformers (Ok let it be 1 K$ for the whole set of the new parts), 2 K$ for the casework, 2 K$ for the 4-days routine selection/matching/assembling process of dedicated top-qualified engineer and 6 K$ a market margin which is further cut by VAT which is pain-in-the-*ss in UK."

I am not really sure what you think about the value for money anymore based on your different reviews. You obviously think that the value of the ADS must be rather low since it seems like you prefer it with the Transporter, but in your previous message you thought that the KDS (which according to you is a ADS with comprised of 200 $ Lundhal transformers ") was a great product (even box fresh) and you did not at all make any reservations that it was overpriced when you compared it with the HDX. I am sorry, but what made you change your mind regarding from KDS being fantastic to KDS being extremely overpriced?

What makes some of you think that the components in a Klimax DS are individually selected, like those for some artisan valve equipment?

The boards are made on surface mount machines, which are loaded with reels of components from which the boards are populated automatically.

And as far as the expensive casework is concerned, commercial goals do not necessarily equate to technical goals.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
What makes some of you think that the components in a Klimax DS are individually selected, like those for some artisan valve equipment?

The boards are made on surface mount machines, which are loaded with reels of components from which the boards are populated automatically.

And as far as the expensive casework is concerned, commercial goals do not necessarily equate to technical goals.

Have you listened to a latest spec KDS? If yes, which other server based players do you think offer higher or equal ability to present music? Or other CD player for that matter?

I have not heard anything as good as the KDS yet, but am hopeful that the new Naim stuff comming in will be able to put up a fight. The price for the Naim equivalent, I am afraid, will probably be in the same range as KDS if you include power supplies and dac.

Yes I have listened to it, and compared it to a Naim DAC driven from a Sneaky-DS. I preferred the sound of the Naim DAC. I am waiting for a more elegant way of connecting it, or something with the same sound quality, to my network.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
Yes I have listened to it, and compared it to a Naim DAC driven from a Sneaky-DS. I preferred the sound of the Naim DAC. I am waiting for a more elegant way of connecting it, or something with the same sound quality, to my network.

If that was your results, I can perfectly understand that you do find KDS overpriced. It seems like the comparisons between Linn and Naim's server players generate very different results. For example the latest "gossip" (very early talks with dealers, and it should be regarded as such) indicated that a dealer thought that the NDX with nDac is at the same level as a ADS2 with an nDac. And according to Jan Å, who seems very experienced, the ADS is better without an additional nDac.

So that leaves us to conclude that the NDX in a nDac is at around the same level as a ADS. And the ADS is, according to my tests, a step below the KDS.

So I guess what we can conclude is that the results seem to differ alot from the range that you think that a Sneaky with nDac is better than the KDS all the way to others thinking that NDX in nDac equals an ADS. And then there are people who thinks that a 2000 usd Transporter is better than the ADS. If the different opinions are based on different system matchings, different music or simply personal preferences is not easy to say.

So after all that ... which is better ???

Tog

quote:

What makes some of you think that the components in a Klimax DS are individually selected, like those for some artisan valve equipment?

The boards are made on surface mount machines, which are loaded with reels of components from which the boards are populated automatically.

And as far as the expensive casework is concerned, commercial goals do not necessarily equate to technical goals.

I'm sure most of elements in KDS are carefully selected. Wolfson DACs, output discrete elements, output transformers, resistors, capacitors, PS regulators -- most of them. And I guess the selection is as strong as the 1 for 10 or even more. I'm sure casework is not the main contributor to the sound performance as the ADS casework is good enough -- but honestly KDS box is very elegant and very hi-endish

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I have not heard anything as good as the KDS yet, but am hopeful that the new Naim stuff comming in will be able to put up a fight.

It's a matter of taste. I'm a KDS fan but nDAC/XPS beats KDS in bass punch and transients just EASILY.
Take a listen them side by side -- I did it several times.
Besides nDAC and KDS sound very similar on hi-res -- very close to vinyl.

What I was really impressed with is the way KDS plays Red Books -- smoother and more analogue than nDAC/XPS.
I think this is where Wolfson DAC shows its strength.
I guess a decent upsampler can improve the Red Book playback on nDAC and level up performance with KDS with drawbacks in microdynamics. I would love to try this solution one day.

quote:

The price for the Naim equivalent, I am afraid, will probably be in the same range as KDS if you include power supplies and dac.

I'm sure a complete Naim solution will cost more than Linn

AMA, you simply cannot select individual surface mount components! They come in huge reels of hundreds or even thousands of (often tiny) components. And a surface mount machine just places them as they come off the reel. Obviously choosing the correct component in the first place is important.

And the fancy casework is surely as over-engineered as the user-interface is under-engineered. I'd rather have a superb UI than a superb, but unnecessary, case.

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AMA, you simply cannot select individual surface mount components!

likemusic, my company is building digital equipment with surface mount components so I know what it is If you read my post carefully you will see I'm talking about Wolfson DAC, discrete output elements, output transformers, PS capacitors and regulators -- all of which are not SM elements and pass a careful selection/adjustment/matching before mounting in top-level units. I remember Richard Dane told that Naim buys the best selected class A chips (BB1704K DACs) from Texas Instruments and then put them in another in-house selection process to grade them into the CD555, CDS3, CDX2, CD5X bins!

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And the fancy casework is surely as over-engineered as the user-interface is under-engineered. I'd rather have a superb UI than a superb, but unnecessary, case.

likesmusic, I agree with you. I'm audiophile -- not a decorator.
My LP12 looks ugly comparing to KDS -- but sounds better though!

Fair enough AMA - I also worked for many years for a company that made surface mount boards. QCing the completed board is the important thing.

quote:

Originally posted by AMA:

quote:

And the fancy casework is surely as over-engineered as the user-interface is under-engineered. I'd rather have a superb UI than a superb, but unnecessary, case.

likesmusic, I agree with you. I'm audiophile -- not a decorator.
My LP12 looks ugly comparing to KDS -- but sounds better though!

well said ..


Tog

quote:

Originally posted by Tog:
So after all that ... which is better ???

Tog

Well what we is such an extreme range of opinions. On one hand we have
1)AMA who thinks that a Sneaky in an nDac outperforms a KDS
On the other side we have some other opinions (very early repoorts from dealer and initiated people)
2) Who seem to think that a NDX with nDac is as the same level as an Acurate

The only thing we know, and what makes it confusing is that KDS is better than ADS and a NDX with nDac should be considerably better than Sneaky in an nDac.

So I guess the conclusion can only be that when you make inter brand comparisons, the individual views differ so much between individuals that you can hardly tell anything from them like we have seen above. Or at least, if you want to use the advise, pick someone whose taste you trust being similar to yours. Personally I have a considerable trust in Jan Å's comments, he is very experienced, explains the surroundings (other equipment etc) and has been been in both camps and should therefore be less biased/fanatic to a particular brand. But that is just my opinion.

Why should a an NDX with an nDAC be better than a Sneaky with an nDac? Does the buffering in the nDAC not work?

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
Why should a an NDX with an nDAC be better than a Sneaky with an nDac? Does the buffering in the nDAC not work?

My impression is that no one (total concensus it seems) has ever claimed that nDac should be equally good regardless of source. An HDX gives a much better result in the nDac than a Squeezbox does. It would have been fantastic if all sources were equal, we could have gotten the cheapest possible and forget about NDX or HDX, but unfortunately that is not the case. (I am suprised that you have not noticed this, it has been the most widely discussed topic ever since nDac was launched).

Sneaky is Linns cheapest and simplest of the DS players. Its price is approximately 50% of the second cheapest and that then include a complete amplifier. Used as only a source, its sound quality is considerably lower than the other players (but fantastic value for money). Again, it would be great news for everybody here of the Sneaky was equal to an HDX or NDX when feeding an nDac, but would a dissaster for Naim, since the demand for NDX and HDX probably would be rather limited if you can get the same quality at a much much lower cost with a Sneaky.

So the buffering in the nDac doesn't work then? Or are you saying a Sneaky gets the bits wrong?