New Naim NDX

quote:

My comment about Naim needing a comms strategy was deadly serious..... The whole approach is incoherent and Naim should be ashamed.

That bad huh?

That is some VERY strong language concerning a relatively obscure, British Hifi manufacturer.

The product line isn't hard to understand. If it is too confusing for you, visit a dealer.

-Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:

The product line isn't hard to understand. If it is too confusing for you, visit a dealer.

-Patrick

Most likely confusing to him too!

Exiting launch and what a great thread indeed, reading it from the beginning has kept me up until now but well worth it!

Paul, Phil, Richard, Doug, Adam - what I would like to understand is given that the NDX has a build in DAC and digital ins, would it be a good upgrade for a CDX2.2 or does the NDAC remain the recommended upgrade path? Will the difference in sonic gain with the NDAC over the NDX be huge or is the NDX a real alternative?

Up until today my idea was to upgrade my CDP with an NDAC and use SONOS for Internet radio, streaming, etc. until the right solution from Naim came along. There have been some good reviews of SONOS here on this forum, even from CD555 owners being happy with the results. For some this route will remain an option, even if it is just for the meantime until either they have saved up enough money to take the plunge and go Naim or Naim comes up with a product that offers similar features and ease of use. I count myself in that category.

As many have stated here I too was hoping for a simple device along the ZP90 that provides Internet radio, streaming as well as the ability to play music files of a network drive, something to integrate with the NDAC. The NDX is that unit in many ways but the build in DAC irritates many and as a CDX2.2 owner the question comes up whether this is the answer to my needs or whether I would still be better advised going the NDAC route? I am asking because I had intended to buy the NDAC together with a ZP90 next month but would not want to find I made the wrong decision.

I would be greateful if you could clarify these points for us.

Thank you
Daniel

ok, some points after careful thought and reading of the pdf files on this NDX thing:

I am still trying to work this thing out, still.

First point:

Taking prices of products, the price of (unitiqute + ndac) = price of (ndx)

ie 1350 + 1995 equals 3345 which almost equals 3250 which is NDX+tunermodule price.

Given that ndac is apparantly an upgrade path to ndx, why buy NDX for almost exactly the same price as unitiqute+ndac???

Sorry, this simply doesnt add up. For the ndac to be an *upgrade* path to NDX in sound quality terms, price(ndx) must be substantially less than price(unitiqute+ndac). If it isnt, you'll just buy UQ+NDAC instead of NDX, get more digital connections, better sound quality, same PSU upgrades, and the same price.

Surely? I cant see how the price of NDX has been arrived at. The NDAC has the high end Burr Brown DACS used in the 555. The NDX doesnt. UQ+NDAC has two power supplies, the NDX has one 200VA supply.

UQ+NDAC has *two* expensive cases, two power supplies. NDX has one case, one PSU. UQ+NDAC has power amp output stages and requisite PSU stages, NDX doesnt.

But NDX is the same price as UQ+NDAC.

I cant shake the thought that NDX is significantly overpriced *by comparison to Naim's own alternative products*.

I come back to the point I raised earlier. NDX is functionally the UQ minus power amps, but with apparantly a better DAC section (although not as good as the nDAC -- NDAC has the same chipset as the 555, NDX has a lesser chipset). And no tuner. That 1350 minus (say) 200 quid for the power amps, minus 250 for the tuner (as priced for NDX as upgrade). At this point we are at 900 pounds. So NDX has a better DAC section than UQ, but its not as good as the NDAC (lesser chipset). NDAC is 1995 pounds. Even if you shovelled in the *entire NDAC*, we are still at the *same* price point as NDX, but NDX dac is not as good nor as flexible as NDAC? Durr?

Unless I am missing something, the NDX appears to be overpriced by upwards of about a grand.

Second point:

As for some nice unknown future features coming to NDX, its hard to see how this *wont* come to Unitiqute and Uniti, given the common firmware platform, surely?

Unless, this refers to this point from the NDX PDF:

"Wired remote out for Naim preamplifier/DAC input and volume control"

Maybe someone from Naim would like to comment on that feature???

jon

To make it more appealing, why not making the NDX with a variable output volume control feature, that would allow a direct connection to a power amp (and making it a two box higher end option to the Uniti).

-A fixed analog output to serve as a source with any preamp or integrated.
-A variable analog output to serve as a two box system, feeding (let's say) a NAP 200.

That volume adjustment would be in the digital domain, making it compatible with the nDAC if added later.

Bye.

As someone with a squeezebox in almost every room I'll look forward to hearing an NDX.

OK - so which dac chip does the NDX have?

I thought it would be the same one the NDAC has?

if it is the same on the SN/HDX has, I can see why the NDAC is considered an upgrade...

NDX has "Burr Brown PCM1791A DAC"

NDAC has "Burr Brown PCM1704k. A true multi-bit digital to analogue converter chip as used in the CD555."

Now I'm out of date on dacs. But if the NDAC uses the same as the 555, and offers all that lovely goodness, then I would expect a 1791A to be lesser? Hence the demo (according to my good mate Malcolm Stewart) of "In an all-too-brief demonstration we heard 1) the NDX, 2)NDX + 555PS, 3) NDX +555PS + DAC, and 4) the NDX +555PS with DAC +555PS. " Clearly Naim view the nDAC as being an upgrade to the NDX, which is why they demoed it as such.

I understand the price of the DAC has gone up recently, to around £2.2k.

quote:

Second point:

As for some nice unknown future features coming to NDX, its hard to see how this *wont* come to Unitiqute and Uniti, given the common firmware platform, surely?

Unless, this refers to this point from the NDX PDF:

"Wired remote out for Naim preamplifier/DAC input and volume control"

n-Stream app can then be used to control CDX2, for example, as well as NAC 202, via RC5 remote outputs x 2 on rear panel (selectable codesets, etc.)

This brings Naim's existing two-channel line into the world of network-based control.

The WHF article states that the NDX will act as a FM/DAB tuner.

Does the FM part include a ADC? If I want to listen to FM in a NDX/nDAC system would I need to connect the NDX to a preamp anyway in order to hear the FM, or can I stream that trough the DAC?

P.S. Also, is the tuner comparable to NAT05 XS in quality? And when you upgrade the NDX with a 555PS does it improve on the tuner as well?

OK, who got their wrists slapped?

quote:

n-Stream app can then be used to control CDX2, for example, as well as NAC 202, via RC5 remote outputs x 2 on rear panel (selectable codesets, etc.)

This brings Naim's existing two-channel line into the world of network-based control.

That speaks volumes. Is this something which will be retrofittable to HDX? (after all it's only a PC, so they can do what they want on the serial port). That would be a nice feature

quote:

Originally posted by totemphile:
Paul, Phil, Richard, Doug, Adam - what I would like to understand is given that the NDX has a build in DAC and digital ins, would it be a good upgrade for a CDX2.2 or does the NDAC remain the recommended upgrade path? Will the difference in sonic gain with the NDAC over the NDX be huge or is the NDX a real alternative?

Thats an interesting thought / question for getting to the bottom of relative performance levels...

quote:

Originally posted by jon honeyball:
Given that ndac is apparantly an upgrade path to ndx, why buy NDX for almost exactly the same price as unitiqute+ndac???

Surely the term "Upgrade" indicates it is designed as a later addition. If buying from the start, UnitiQute + nDAC probably does make more sense (though it the digital output of both identical - we're being told the HDX beats the UnitiServe and CDX2.2 beats CD5XS used digitally into the DAC), but if you start with the one box NDX, you're not going to sell it to buy UnitiQute and DAC.

quote:

Originally posted by Stoik
To make it more appealing, why not making the NDX with a variable output volume control feature, that would allow a direct connection to a power amp (and making it a two box higher end option to the Uniti).

-A fixed analog output to serve as a source with any preamp or integrated.
-A variable analog output to serve as a two box system, feeding (let's say) a NAP 200.

Then everyone wanting to use it with a classic series pre-amp will be moaning it has a volume control they don't want!!

quote:

That volume adjustment would be in the digital domain, making it compatible with the nDAC if added later.

Have one word to say about digital volume controls ... eurg! Unless they are very high end. Though at least if it was Naim designed for Naim equipment the variable output could be at a level suitable for Naim power amps.

quote:

Originally posted by nkrgovic:
The WHF article states that the NDX will act as a FM/DAB tuner.

Does the FM part include a ADC? If I want to listen to FM in a NDX/nDAC system would I need to connect the NDX to a preamp anyway in order to hear the FM, or can I stream that trough the DAC?

Not sure about the FM tuner in the Uniti / NDX line, but I know a lot of FM tuners built into DAB/FM devices work in totally in the digital domain and require a DAC the same as the DAB portion does.

Eloise

as far as I understand from David's post, the NDX will control the (analogue) volume of a Naim preamp remotely via RS232C? It's a key feature if so, as this has been missing since the nStream app and other network controls have been available. Now the same software should be written into the HDX code too IMO.
I suspect that's one of the goodie features that Phil was referring to yesterday

I have a question

quote:

Taken from the Features list of the NDX on the Naim website:
•Three 24bit/192kHz-capable S/PDIF inputs for external digital sources
•Internal architecture for hi-res audio playback up to 24bit/96kHz over the network

Sooo..does that mean 24/192 HiRes downloaded FLAC files on the network will NOT play on the NDX?

Hope this isn't true since HiRes downloads are set to increase and are already offered by Naim themselves aswell as LINN who provide 24/192 plyback on their DS range.

regards
Geoff

quote:

Sooo..does that mean 24/192 HiRes downloaded FLAC files on the network will NOT play on the NDX?

And if it did it would do it gapless....unless you get your server to do some trickery.

quote:

Originally posted by jon honeyball:
NDX has "Burr Brown PCM1791A DAC"

NDAC has "Burr Brown PCM1704k. A true multi-bit digital to analogue converter chip as used in the CD555."

Now I'm out of date on dacs. But if the NDAC uses the same as the 555, and offers all that lovely goodness, then I would expect a 1791A to be lesser? Hence the demo (according to my good mate Malcolm Stewart) of "In an all-too-brief demonstration we heard 1) the NDX, 2)NDX + 555PS, 3) NDX +555PS + DAC, and 4) the NDX +555PS with DAC +555PS. " Clearly Naim view the nDAC as being an upgrade to the NDX, which is why they demoed it as such.

JV once said that the implementation of the dac is more important than the DAC itself.

BUT : can naim please explain why did not choose the high end burr brown 1704 dac in the NDX?

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:

quote:

Originally posted by jon honeyball:
NDX has "Burr Brown PCM1791A DAC"

NDAC has "Burr Brown PCM1704k. A true multi-bit digital to analogue converter chip as used in the CD555."

Now I'm out of date on dacs. But if the NDAC uses the same as the 555, and offers all that lovely goodness, then I would expect a 1791A to be lesser? Hence the demo (according to my good mate Malcolm Stewart) of "In an all-too-brief demonstration we heard 1) the NDX, 2)NDX + 555PS, 3) NDX +555PS + DAC, and 4) the NDX +555PS with DAC +555PS. " Clearly Naim view the nDAC as being an upgrade to the NDX, which is why they demoed it as such.

JV once said that the implementation of the dac is more important than the DAC itself.

BUT : can naim please explain why did not choose the high end burr brown 1704 dac in the NDX?

I guess (as it's the same DAC chip as in the CDX2) that Naim see the PCM1791A to be i suitable for the level that the NDX is aimed at. It certainly lends credibility to any rumours that there could be a higher level streamer (500 series) later.

PCM1704 in CDS3; CD555 and Naim DAC.
PCM1791A in CDX2; HDX; NDX and (IIRC) SuperNAIT.

Eloise

PS. Correction, I think the SuperNAIT uses the PCM1792A not sure how much they differ.

Eloise,

be careful here, I think it's dangerous to fall in to making judgements based on component parts. For example, while the DAC chipset is shared between HDX and NDX, the NDX uses the in-house DSP oversampling and fitering from the NDAC.

Also, the PCM1704 in the CD555 is not the same as that in the CDS3, which is also not the same as that in the CD5x or CDX2. There are different levels of selection undertaken at Naim. So, if, as an example, only 1 in 20 reaches the required standard for a CD555 then that makes it not just a better DAC chip but also way more expensive.

Breaking a great dish down to the bare ingredients only tells you a tiny bit about how it may taste....

However, I understand the gist of your post. And I guess it does leave room for an ND500...

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:
Eloise,

be careful here, I think it's dangerous to fall in to making judgements based on component parts. For example, while the DAC chipset is shared between HDX and NDX, the NDX uses the in-house DSP oversampling and fitering from the NDAC.

Also, the PCM1704 in the CD555 is not the same as that in the CDS3, which is also not the same as that in the CD5x or CDX2. There are different levels of selection undertaken at Naim. So, if, as an example, only 1 in 20 reaches the required standard for a CD555 then that makes it not just a better DAC chip but also way more expensive.

Breaking a great dish down to the bare ingredients only tells you a tiny bit about how it may taste....

However, I understand the gist of your post. And I guess it does leave room for an ND500...

Of course yes Richard ... I wasn't trying to make a judgement in that way ... though it could be read that way.

Eloise

quote:

Originally posted by Nero:
as far as I understand from David's post, the NDX will control the (analogue) volume of a Naim preamp remotely via RS232C? It's a key feature if so, as this has been missing since the nStream app and other network controls have been available. Now the same software should be written into the HDX code too IMO.
I suspect that's one of the goodie features that Phil was referring to yesterday

Not quite right - the NDX will be controlling the DAC and pre via RC5 codes and has output sockets on the back specifically for this purpose.

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Harris:

quote:

Originally posted by Nero:
as far as I understand from David's post, the NDX will control the (analogue) volume of a Naim preamp remotely via RS232C? It's a key feature if so, as this has been missing since the nStream app and other network controls have been available. Now the same software should be written into the HDX code too IMO.
I suspect that's one of the goodie features that Phil was referring to yesterday

Not quite right - the NDX will be controlling the DAC and pre via RC5 codes and has output sockets on the back specifically for this purpose.

Phil

Yes, I spotted that in the meantime. It looks like the HDX has an RC5 input only, so I guess it will never control a pre?

AllenB - you old cynic!

quote:

Sooo..does that mean 24/192 HiRes downloaded FLAC files on the network will NOT play on the NDX?

Well since nobody has commented from Naim I assume this is correct

regards
Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:
BUT : can naim please explain why did not choose the high end burr brown 1704 dac in the NDX?

Duh! Because they want you to buy the nDAC after you have bought the NDX

There could be other (technical) reasons.
Best to let them naim answer, if they want to.
I would go back to what JV said, the choice of dac is the least important factor in Naim digital products.

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by ali 026:
BUT : can naim please explain why did not choose the high end burr brown 1704 dac in the NDX?

Duh! Because they want you to buy the nDAC after you have bought the NDX

Price. Good 1704's are hard to get and the difference will probably be minimal in this configuration. The PCM1791A is also a great starting point. I prefer it to any of the Wolfsons when optimised for instance. I suspect fewer clocks, less supply and IC output stage which in this case is a significant savings depending on how integrated the chip is to the filters.

This is how everybody else does it though with different topology and generally less sophistication. Perhaps a compromise vs the seperate DAC but if well chosen could still ba a class leading product with outboard supply. I think those with DACs will consider the NDX but that those with NDX but without a DAC will probably not long for one. My guess would be a PS upgrade to be more significant than a DAC as a single unit upgrade and that hasn't been the case with other dig out products. Putting everything in one case always involves some compromise. Picking the right ones and market to guarantee sales is always the trick. If done correctly, you can give more for less while still allowing an upgrade path for those that want it without genuine penalty.