New Naim NDX

To be honest, I think it is a bit meaningless at this stage to think of the voicing of the NDX and if it is better value than a HDX or not.

The NDX is a product which was born using all the experience of the development of the Uniti System and HDX product lines. So it would be kind of surprising if it would not be "better" some way or another. Let's wait until is available for more listening, then judge if you can be happy with it or not.

I think the NDX is a clever product including digital inputs and USB connection. If the sound quality is comparable to other well known network players it can be a good reason for them to change. The USB port is another. It is not explicitly said in the known documents it works with USB sticks only. So I hope it will work with USB hard drives as well, the data line isolation could help this too. I even hope it can work with USB hub too to connect more than one USB drive. I am dreaming probably but I could use this feature a lot.

I have a Naim DAC/XPS2 and the NDX does not cause sleepless nights to be honest. I am enjoying what I have.
The technology is evolving, it can be very much true that Naim learnt so many things in the past years they can make the NDX good enough to let me think about to change the DAC to the NDX. Who knows? If it will be a case this is fine for me. If not I will make a decision AFTER trying the NDX if it worth or not to connect it to the nDAC/XPS2. If yes this is life again, if I have the budget I will do it, if not I will enjoy it from the HiFace Evo. But I will make decisions only after I tried the NDX in my system. Not in advance, based on a kind of theoretical "voicing" suggestions. If Naim are about something new and worthwhile in case of the NDX which makes it comparable to the HDX and the DAC, I hope they will use this knowledge to make the existing prouducts better too, if they can.

Do you remember the MacLavry case? When few of us heard the MacLavry even better than the CDS3? Where are those Lavrys now? Majority of them long gone and changed to the Dac of the day since then....So be careful with other's voicing suggestions.

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Indeed, we never had Naim answer publicly as to whether the Serve has the same output as the upgraded HDX ( I don't mean physically or topographically, I mean the 'voicing')?

There is no analogue output in the UnitiServe, therefore no "voicing" in the traditional sense.

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BTW, I don't accept the argument that products change and things improve, of course they do in the general consumer Market, but Naim buyers do not buy to upgrade with next years model ( that will lead to more serious obsessive behaviour IMO), they usually buy for the long term. BUT, really they shouldn't have to question their one- or two- year old purchase.

Incremental changes to high-tech products? How dare anyone increase value-for-money or performance over the lifespan of a product!

The whole story so far on this forum from the days of the Lavry forward, has illustrated that Naim had to learn to walk before it could run in the area of distributed audio. Linn did too I am sure, they just started a lot earlier.

A lot of companies are more secretive about the pain they go through to bring completely reliable FINAL products to the HiFi shop shelves. Naim is very open and perhaps a little foolish to let details of new products out as early in their development as it seems they often do, but at least we are all warned that this or that product is coming.

Not being unkind but I feel I have quite a bit of time in which to save my pennies before the opportunity to make a serious choice between the Linn products and a FULLY MATUIRED version the NDX. In the meantime having established the interface I prefer, ( Cat5 cable) I am happy to enjoy and learn the subtlties of digital audio ripping, storage, indexing, and hardware delivery with the ADS. The ADS as it stands today is also excelent sounding( at least to my old ears) and reflects the evolution of the Linn control software, the powersupply upgrade and open source programs which act as nice remote controls and a decent radio function all based on several years of evolution.

Of course in the meantime there maybe other other products worth a check, like the PS Audio DAC with its network bridge...HiFi never changes, always something there waiting to steal your pennies.

regards
geoff

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The whole story so far on this forum from the days of the Lavry forward, has illustrated that Naim had to learn to walk before it could run in the area of distributed audio. Linn did too I am sure, they just started a lot earlier.

I think there's more to this than meets the eye....

In the early days, shortly after the introduction of the NaimNet product range, there were plenty of remarks posted on this forum that it would be desirable to have an audiophile music server – a proper Naim source component that would provide musical performance consistent with the values of the Naim brand.

One of those values, if I may, is that the best possible performance be extracted from the media at hand, i.e., that the best possible archival disc rips be made, to insure that any engineering efforts (in playback) made downstream from the data acquisition process were given the best possible data to decode. This value (source MEDIA first) persists in the UnitiServe. This obviates any of the discussions on other internet discussion groups with regard to rip quality, perceived sound quality differences in rips, etc. - Naim have this sorted for you, as well as storage.

Secondly - it was decided that the HDX should have a power supply upgrade socket, to supplant the internal linear supply (with toroidal transformer) to provide better performance. This achieved a second end, in that existing Naim two-box CD player owners who were ready to move into digital music storage could do so while retaining the value of their existing supply (recall that there had been plans within the NaimNet range to offer a premium two-box NS04 server with a dedicated drive chassis / power supply). This is exemplary of another value of the Naim range - that a customer should never feel that their existing product(s) will be obsoleted with the introduction of a new product (range), by having a sideways upgrade path using a portion of their existing hardware.

The net effect of the "source MEDIA first" dictum is that Naim has insured that, regardless of the type of network endpoint (StreamNet or UPnP) that CD-DA data (in the specific case) can be played bit-perfect with the same (or better) performance as Naim's own CD players. This was not an unplanned stumble, IMHO, because one cannot speak of high-quality performance at the outputs (e.g., NDX) without addressing the data acquisition and server/control aspects. It also establishes a certain level of credibility for the playback system as a whole, with a closed-loop system for data integrity.

Now, some three years later, Naim has responded to the needs of customers who desire a gapless streaming network player (having addressed themselves the need for CD-DA ripping and storage by their own efforts) with the NDX, itself also a proper Naim source component in one box with power supply upgrades, digital out, iPod connectivity and built-in Internet Radio (which, unlike some competitors' products, does not require an external software application to function).

For the HDX owner, the NDX adds a host of features (iPod connectivity and Internet Radio among others) that allow it to assume the role of a functionally up-to-date, primary audiophile source within a Naim system, while allowing one's existing HDX to function as a ripper / server / player as required.

I have to agree with the opinion that if you own a Ndac and have only recently purchased would you have still made that decision knowing that there was a product like the NDX on the horizon, its great knowing if you have the dac you can add the NDX to your system but if your choice was one or the other would the choice be DAC or NDX. Martyn.

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which, unlike some competitors' products, does not require an external software application to function

Dave, you're absolutely right (as always) and this will allow Naim to leave other products in the dust.

Me, I like 24/192.

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Originally posted by AllenB:

Granted 'voicing' might be the incorrect term to use in relation to the dig outs, but tell me David, do the dig outs of the HDX & Serve sound the same, all else being equal.

There is a honest answer: there will be few who hear a difference and the rest will not. You know like the difference between the front and back USB connector in case of the DAC.
This question has no scientific precision answer as you may know. On a kind of microscopic level it will definitely sound different just becasue of the difference in the power supply and the chassis probably, but I am not sure if it is important at all or if it does matter more than the difference of the two USB connection of the nDAC.

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Originally posted by AllenB:
Sorry ferenc, I have to disagree strongly, it's not meaningless at all.

Especially not if you already own a HDX or nDAC. Perhaps it is the 'voicing' that Paul has alluded to, and why some might prefer the NDX.

I suspect the HDX and NDX has very similar electronics and sound similar from their dig outs as should the UnitiServe other than from differences in PS and layout. Likely, Naim is only trying to get the best out of the 3 and voicing will only differ by what needs to be done for that end. HDX owners haven't complained, nor will they. There's already a reasonable upgrade in place to bring it up to current spec and it's function set is different. They are most likely content and aren't as worried about what's next as those that still need to decide. The NDX will be better sounding as a stand alone due to the newer DAC tech but probably a bit less good when both fitted with outboard DAC which is fine as the HDX is more seperates orientated. The serve is anyones guess but really, what dif does it make if they're all good for their purpose and it meets a particular need. Voicing is just that and is often confused with goodness. Happens with the 200,282,etc./etc. when 252 and 250 are genuinely better. I try to work through a voicing and get to the meat of it. Voicing comes in setup also and many suffer from tunnel vision when changing one bit of kit and it makes for an iffy result. A system needs to be resetup with any audition to try to get the best from a piece instead of introducing it to and old set of compromises.

I'm sure the NDX will have a smoother and seemingly more open character but I'm also sure it wont surpass the NDAC in overall goodness. Voicing also comes from what works with a particular circuit and isn't necessarily directed. Basically, how do we make this all it can be. They stuck their necks out a bit with the DAC and allowed you to hear that some associated bits may not be as good as may have been suspected, grounding etc. I suspect the NDX will be about as informative but freindlier in character. Perhaps less dynamic and etched which is how I'd describe about everything next to an Ndac. It is Naim so expect it to still have plenty of prat.

My earlier comment regarding price has to do with not only the cost of a 1704 dac but that to get the best from it, selection is a good idea. It would actually be cheaper to parallel a few to average out any errors on paper but it also wouldn't be as good. As much as I like ladder DACs of which I think the 1704 is the last, it's trim is critical to exeptional performance. There comes a point that something else is effectively just as good if less critically selected out. Another nice thing about a ladder DAC is that it could be made discrete rather easily on paper though trimming each very critical resistor value would be a real pain and time consuming(costly). With todays DSP for sampling and outboard filters, who knows, maybe someone will take it on. Not a hint as I know 0 about a reference dac. What I like abut the 1791 dac in the NDX is that it's not sonically recognizable as a delta/sigma chip with noise shaping. Lots of solidity and prat when used right. With outboard filtering it should also really open up and I suspect this is what many have probably noticed on audition.

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Originally posted by AllenB:
Ferenc, I am not having sleepless nights, just trying to understand the strategy

The strategy is clear: to make such devices which has more functionality than the direct competitors and at least comaprable or better in sound quality on different level of users and budgets.

As Dave explained Naim has a well established strategy, starting from the source: the rip and the UPnP server. No other competitor has the same way of deep thinking as none of them has their own ripping method and UPnP server.

The UPnP server is way more important than you might think, mainly if it decodes compressed files to raw PCM. The interface is not a Cat5 in case of a network player only, but the combination of the UPnP server AND the Cat5 (or more precisely the IP-based transmission). The generic UPnP server developer thinks more about the compatibility than a sound quality. So starting from ground zero means owning the ripping angine and the UPnP server too. Naim probably has the most completed path of handling the bits through the network infrastructure on a bit perfect way which shows deep understanding and a well thought strategy of the network based audio. For me at least, YMMV,

Still getting my head around the NDX. I am I correct in assuming that this is designed to be the main audio "hub" for all the digital medium in the main listening area music for example - computer stored music /NAS /IPOD/CD etc. and merge them all into one central control device ? If so, I like it !

So for someone like me with a CDX2.2 &555PS I could move the 555PS to the NDX & digital out my CDX2.2 to the NDX as well ? Could this also be viewed as an "upgrade " to the CDX2.2 of sorts.

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Originally posted by AllenB:
For people like HarryK & glevethan who may be concerned about the HDX being usurped (me too as the HDX SSD looks to be in the lead as my next purchase),

AllenB

Oh - don't worry about me - do not own a HDX - and do not want to own one. Not my cup of tea.

I will stick with my CD555 and wait on digital to see if Naim can come up with something that trumps the 555 and the Linn Klimax. At the current stage of things (obviously without privy to demoing a NDX) my money is still on the Klimax if and when I make my move to digital. The NDX may very well be a cracker (I am sure it is) however I refuse to go with 4 boxes (NDX-nDAC-2x555PS) - four rack shelves - HiLine - and CONSIDERABLY more cost than a single box Klimax.

Gregg

There’s no worrying going on here. There’s no fear that that my front end has suddenly gone obsolete. I’m very happy with the arrangements and am in a much better place than this time last year for musical enjoyment. I’m not the sort of person who holds back in case something better (or different) comes along. Something always does. The question is, IF adding an NDX is going to put a bigger smile on my face (which will be determined in due course), I am keen to know if a potential exists to further upgrade it by adding an external PS to the NDX in addition to all the boxes hanging off it to receive and process the signal (nDAC, PS).

I ask for purely practical reasons. A five box front end seems excessive but more than that there is only so much rack space and room space available. Plans to move to 252/Super/300 may have to be shelved if I find five boxes is the really kick ass front end that I aspire to. I’m not complaining and I’m not trying to make or push assumptions based on speculation. I’m just asking what will it take? I’m happy to do the auditions and decide for myself but at this stage I am seeking clarity on what the upgrade potential of the NDX is? Never mind about voicing, buyer remorse and all that – we each have our own limits. If an NDX is run into a DAC with PS, will or will not adding yet another PS to the NDX upgrade it further? I do not have an agenda. I just want factual information. Is this considered an “upgrade path” or not? Anyone who’s seen it or been briefed on it will be able to answer yes/no. At this stage, from my perspective, any other convoluted, round the houses response to this question is static. Maybe nobody knows the answer, in which case it couldn’t have been much of a briefing.

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however I refuse to go with 4 boxes (NDX-nDAC-2x555PS) - four rack shelves - HiLine - and CONSIDERABLY more cost than a single box Klimax.

Second. And this is a serious reason for why I'm so reluctant to go for UnitiServe + nDAC + 555PS nDAC which will cost me almost the same money as to sell nDAC and buy KDS or Weiss DAC.

BTW KDS sounds FANTASTIC and saves two shelves on rack (and three powerlines ).

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Originally posted by David Dever:
[QUOTE]
For the HDX owner, the NDX adds a host of features (iPod connectivity and Internet Radio among others) that allow it to assume the role of a functionally up-to-date, primary audiophile source within a Naim system, while allowing one's existing HDX to function as a ripper / server / player as required.

David - Could you clarify?

Whilst I understand that role that the NDX can play in a Naim system for those who have made third party arrangements for CD ripping / audio archiving, I am unclear about the role of the NDX for those who already have a HDX + DAC + PS, unless the NDX resides in a different part of the house and acts as a renderer in a multi-room system with the HDX acting as the server.

Maybe but with the new pods it seems much smarter to wait a few weeks and evaluate AirPlay and the new AppleTV connected through the DAC. An iPad + AppleTV *may* (yet to be tested) be a very nice way to listen to radio with integrated discovery (and non-radio like Spotify).

I'd rather put my money towards a 555PS than adding the NDX just to get internet-radio.

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Originally posted by David Dever:
For the HDX owner, the NDX adds a host of features (iPod connectivity and Internet Radio among others) that allow it to assume the role of a functionally up-to-date, primary audiophile source within a Naim system, while allowing one's existing HDX to function as a ripper / server / player as required.

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Originally posted by AllenB:

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BTW, I don't accept the argument that products change and things improve, of course they do in the general consumer Market, but Naim buyers do not buy to upgrade with next years model ( that will lead to more serious obsessive behaviour IMO), they usually buy for the long term. BUT, really they shouldn't have to question their one- or two- year old purchase.

Incremental changes to high-tech products? How dare anyone increase value-for-money or performance over the lifespan of a product!

Granted 'voicing' might be the incorrect term to use in relation to the dig outs, but tell me David, do the dig outs of the HDX & Serve sound the same, all else being equal.

With all due respect, your second comment is just plain silly, but I will make allowances for the fact that, as distributor, you would probably like a yearly change in equipment to maintain sales. Do you also trade cars?

Components and competencies change, and a product that was purchased as being perfectly suitable to task should continue to be so. Not sure what your point is (though I have no interest in seeing products change like undergarments, especially from a distributor's perspective).

I'm hoping for an NDX without the DAC section.
I know there is the UnitiServe but I suspect the performance of the NDX as a streamer would be superior to it.

Just add a upnp renderer/ethernet connectivity to the nDAC. Done, dusted, game over. What more would you want? No need for another streamer box whatsover.

I am sure NDX will be an excellent product on its own, IMO critics are due for what it is still missing in the distributed audio product range, I mean a pure streamer for the DAC. IMO the perfect distributed audio partner for the DAC is still to be realeased. For some reason, Naim doesn't seem to be interested in this market segment. No ripping, no storaging, just streaming (plus Internet radio) through the best possible digital output for feeding the DAC. I think this would be the kind of product that most computer audio users would be willing to buy.

NDX points out to the Linn DS market and I think this is a good move, in fact I would bet it will have more sales than HDX or U-Serve. But I agree with others who think Naim's product range is becoming a bit confusing. Different options for different tastes is ok but the SQ product hierarchy is not clear. From a customer point of view, this product hierarchy is very useful and I think it contributes to trust the brand and make their product more desirable.

It is fair to say all this Distributed Audio world is so new and complex. IMO Naim is making a brave effort investing and launching so many different products for this market and maybe its strategy is the right one for an the undefined distributed audio market.

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Originally posted by goldfinch:
I am sure NDX will be an excellent product on its own, IMO critics are due for what it is still missing in the distributed audio product range, I mean a pure streamer for the DAC. IMO the perfect distributed audio partner for the DAC is still to be realeased. For some reason, Naim doesn't seem to be interested in this market segment. No ripping, no storaging, just streaming (plus Internet radio) through the best possible digital output for feeding the DAC. I think this would be the kind of product that most computer audio users would be willing to buy.

Out of curiousity, do you know ANY audio company who produce a device like this? (Okay maybe PS Audio's new standalone Bridge/Lens but thats not actually available!)

As (I think) David said earlier - to remove the pre/power amp and SPDIF inputs from a UnitiQute and the product would probably sell for more as it would then be a smaller market. And thats what you're asking for! Or the alternative is to use the UnitiServe - again to remove the ripping (and there is no storage in SSD version) would increase costs due to economy of scale. I know it's slightly different in terms of cost, but pleanty of people use a Sonos or Squeezebox fed into ANOTHER DAC. The Squeezebox Transport is more expensive than a UnitiQute.

Now I'm not sure how the quality of the SPDIF output of the UnitiQute compares with UnitiServe (or HDX and NDX) or with the Linn Magik DS or Sneaky DS for that matter - maybe before writing off Naim because they don't produce the exact product you want people should consider the products which provide what they want along side a few superflouous features which (probably) don't affect the SQ for what you actually want to do.

I don't think I've ever seen anyone compare the UnitiQute SPDIF output for quality compared with other devices...

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But I agree with others who think Naim's product range is becoming a bit confusing. Different options for different tastes is ok but the SQ product hierarchy is not clear. From a customer point of view, this product hierarchy is very useful and I think it contributes to trust the brand and make their product more desirable.

Maybe we have to look at there being 2 (or more) different strand of source components which overlap but are also separate.
In one strand are the streamers ... Uniti and UnitiQute then NDX (bare); NDX with XPS2 and NDX with 555PS at the top.
In another are the server/players ... UnitiServe and then HDX (with it's PS options providing upgrades).
And finally the CD players ... CD5i; CD5XS; etc.

Alongside is the DAC ... which can be used to upgrade, in some cases substantially in others more subtly, the other source components.

So yes confusing ... but maybe less so than thinking of all the "Hard Disk Player / Server" devices into one lump. Edit: okay I've just looked at the website and there is a separate "Network Player" section with the NDX in - I'm sure initially was in the "Hard Disk Player / Server" section. It's actually making more sence now...

Eloise

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Originally posted by nap-ster:
I'm hoping for an NDX without the DAC section.
I know there is the UnitiServe but I suspect the performance of the NDX as a streamer would be superior to it.

I think the commercial reality is that most all streamers will have some sort of DAC onboard so they can be used as a stand-alone product.

But who knows? Perhaps if there can be shown to be a big performance advantage to make just a Streamer transport without an internal DAC, there may be a market there... or not.

And as for a proliferation of boxes, surely an NDX along with a Nait (whether it be a "super", "XS" or vanilla variety) would be a pretty neat high performance 2 box system? After all, you don't need to add a PSU or DAC etc..., but it's nice to know you can if you wish to upgrade in future. And if you want just one box, go Uniti or Unitiqute. Simple.

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Originally posted by John R.:
Finally a stripped down HDX! Naims information strategy is very strange and I guess a lot of Linn DS buyers here would have waited, if Naim announced the NDX earlier...

Oh no they wouldn't. Picking my ADS up this week.


TTFN

RR

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Originally posted by Red Rooster:

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Originally posted by John R.:
Finally a stripped down HDX! Naims information strategy is very strange and I guess a lot of Linn DS buyers here would have waited, if Naim announced the NDX earlier...

Oh no they wouldn't. Picking my ADS up this week.

Out of interest; no on what ground?

Preconceived performance level, not prepared to wait another x months till shipping, or some other reason?

Eloise

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Add the streaming section to the nDAC, in a classic case and everyone's happy

I hope you're not suggesting discontinuing the nDAC Allen - there are many of us who neither need nor want a streamer. No problem if there is a nDAC with a streaming option for those who have to have streaming, but for those of us who prefer to eliminate streaming and the noise and clutter associated with IP networks, Ethernet, UPnP, Windoze, it is great to see Naim providing a stand-alone DAC.

No quandary here, I'm delighted with the nDAC as it is - if Naim brings out a better product one day then that is great, but I'll not be buying a streamer. I can supply my nDAC with all the music it needs from an adjacent MacBook (or USB or CD/SACD transport). My MacBook provides a way to get music from remote file stores and do all the GUI+TCP/IP+NFS nonsense.

I can't see the problem with multiple boxes - personally I see it as an advantage.

The Akurate DS is a one-box streamer DAC and it isn't really something I would want to use as my primary way to listen to music. It may suit others, but it falls down for me on versatility and sound quality.