Beethoven Symponies - Immerseel
Posted by: George Fredrik on 14 December 2010
Beethoven Symponies and Overtures - Immerseel
This sounds like the most wonderful Beethoven playing I have heard outside of the great performances from Otto Klemperer and Erich Kleiber, and will provide a perfect counter-balance to their traditional [okay not traditional in their days for sure] performances from a half century ago.
Very natural performances that don't score points at the expense of the music, but rather let it speak for itself in a refreshingly self-less way on the part of the conductor and orchestra.
More later. ATB from George
This sounds like the most wonderful Beethoven playing I have heard outside of the great performances from Otto Klemperer and Erich Kleiber, and will provide a perfect counter-balance to their traditional [okay not traditional in their days for sure] performances from a half century ago.
Very natural performances that don't score points at the expense of the music, but rather let it speak for itself in a refreshingly self-less way on the part of the conductor and orchestra.
More later. ATB from George
Posted on: 14 December 2010 by mikeeschman
I can't get enough of these.
Posted on: 14 December 2010 by mikeeschman
These recordings were made in 2008.
The playing is simply perfect, and every phrase brims with emotion.
The beat is well maintained and intonation is superb.
The recordings are the most realistic I have heard.
The sense of dynamics is electrifying!
I want to remember this set in detail forever :-)
The playing is simply perfect, and every phrase brims with emotion.
The beat is well maintained and intonation is superb.
The recordings are the most realistic I have heard.
The sense of dynamics is electrifying!
I want to remember this set in detail forever :-)
Posted on: 14 December 2010 by George Fredrik
I have finished a first pass listen to the whole set in between going to hospital and the Police about the accident ystarday afternoon, since the post came today.
I want to listen to the Fifth again as I initially think it the weakest in the cycle, but maybe that was wrist-ache playing on my nerves.
The "Choral" is a tremendous musical success! The "Pastoral," among my favourites, and so on ...
But wait a couple of hours for a long review if anyone is bothered.
In my view this easily the most brilliant Beethoven cycle of symphonies since Klemperer's, and the similarities are immense in seven out of the nine! It is indeed a surprise to me to realise that if Immerseel is accurate on the metronome, then Klemperer is actually even more urgent from time to time!
Klemperer is the only earlier Beethoven conductor mentioned in the exemplary sleeve notes and it seems to me that Immerseel knew well Klemperer's fiery 1950s readings of the music, though he does not in any way actually copy Klemperer, but he certainly observes the older conductor's ability to build momentum and clinch the emotional climaxes.
ATB from George
I want to listen to the Fifth again as I initially think it the weakest in the cycle, but maybe that was wrist-ache playing on my nerves.
The "Choral" is a tremendous musical success! The "Pastoral," among my favourites, and so on ...
But wait a couple of hours for a long review if anyone is bothered.
In my view this easily the most brilliant Beethoven cycle of symphonies since Klemperer's, and the similarities are immense in seven out of the nine! It is indeed a surprise to me to realise that if Immerseel is accurate on the metronome, then Klemperer is actually even more urgent from time to time!
Klemperer is the only earlier Beethoven conductor mentioned in the exemplary sleeve notes and it seems to me that Immerseel knew well Klemperer's fiery 1950s readings of the music, though he does not in any way actually copy Klemperer, but he certainly observes the older conductor's ability to build momentum and clinch the emotional climaxes.
ATB from George
Posted on: 15 December 2010 by Joe Bibb
quote:Originally posted by George Johnson:
But wait a couple of hours for a long review if anyone is bothered.
Please do George. Are the speeds similar to Klemperer? I am an admirer of Klemperer's Beethoven in many ways but just occasionally find the pace indulgently slow with some of his recordings.
Anyway, I look forward to your thoughts.
Joe
Posted on: 15 December 2010 by George Fredrik
Sorry. I put the Fifth and went sleep before the opening chords finished!
Woke up during the radiant final chords of the Sixth, and turned off the machine. Will do it this evening ...
The places where Klemperer is notiously slow as in the first movement of the Eroica [at least in the stereo recording] for example or the EMI and Vox recordings of the Sixth [Village dance third movement mainly] are not similarly slow in the Immerseel recordings.
ATB from George
Woke up during the radiant final chords of the Sixth, and turned off the machine. Will do it this evening ...
The places where Klemperer is notiously slow as in the first movement of the Eroica [at least in the stereo recording] for example or the EMI and Vox recordings of the Sixth [Village dance third movement mainly] are not similarly slow in the Immerseel recordings.
ATB from George
Posted on: 15 December 2010 by mikeeschman
In the Eroica's third movement, Immerseel employs an accelerando that is not marked in the score.
I wonder what his justification is? It is not mentioned in the liner notes.
At any rate, I think it works musically.
Any thoughts, George?
I wonder what his justification is? It is not mentioned in the liner notes.
At any rate, I think it works musically.
Any thoughts, George?
Posted on: 15 December 2010 by George Fredrik
Re-listened to the Fifth, and now think it fits well with the others. The whole cycle is a tour de force, though I have major reservations about the performances of the overtures, Coriolan and Egmont.
The tempi are claimed to present the metronome marks and short of a long time testing the claim with my very accurate electronic metronome, against the scores - a singularly fruitless exercise to my mind - I do not find that any of them ruin the music for me!
To start with the orchestra is clearly recorded, though with too much stereo separation as is the fashion nowadays. No orchestra can be set in a reasonable perspective [i.e., you are sat a few rows from the front] with this degree of separation of the sections, but this is not a serious cavil. Klemperer's 1950s EMI recordings are better, but that is no surprise to me, and the woodwind vs. string balances are alaways as fine and sometimes significantly more lucid.
The orchestra is a delight - full of crunchy peppery sounds, and a mile from the super smooth sounds of US based orchestras or the BPO. This is a relief. No seasoning with bland white pepper or the chromium plated perfection found in so much US orchestral playing but a real chance of biting down on a hot little bit of black corn-corn - rasp of real horns or sizzle of horse-hair on gut!
The balances are natural, though it is surprise that the small string section can still smother woodwind detail. Klemperer with the estimable Philharmonia never allows this basic mistake.
The First symphony is given an aptly spry reading at virtually identical tempi to those of Klemperer [who also clearly had a weather eye on the metronome markings] in his EMI recording [and the 1957 broadcast] and it would be difficult to say which I prefer!
The Second gets another straightforward performance where the second movement is blissfully free of being made a dirge in Largo tempo, and like Klemperer this movement is moved along at a clear Larghetto.
The Third - Eroica - is a major triumph. Only marginally slower than Erich Kleiber's 1954 Vienna Philharmonic performance on Decca, the much clearer textures of the Anima Eterna Orchestra really help us listen into the massive rhythmic expressiveness of the first movement, and pace Mike's comment about the unmarked accelerando in the Scherzo, I would not have noted it without his remark! As he notes, it seems to work well enough!
The Fourth symphony is a favourite of mine, and this has become my favourite performance of it, though I retain an affection for Klemperer's EMI set and the RFH live broadcast, but most of all the great 1926 performance made by Casals and Barcelona Orchestra, which has yet to be matched in my view, except for the dim Western electric patent HMV recording!
The Fifth is facing stiff opposition of course but is entirely satisfying on its own account. I would rate the Pastoral a more engaging performance
The Pastoral seems to me both clear sighted and deeply poetic, with not a foot wrong in tempo terms, and a nicely placed sense of rural relaxation, and humour [especially in the third movement], while the Storm is duly powerful and the last movement really seems to catch the spirit of Thanksgiving.
I have a one reservation about the Seventh and only one, but it is significant. I feared that the second movement might misfire for being rushed, but it is splendid! Yes it is the second fastest I have heard [Toscanini live in London with the BBC SO was faster, and not enjoyable for me], and the first movement again is wonderfully full of fresh air, but the Finale has some very strange agogic slowings in the Horns which disrupt things such that I found this not nearly up to the standard of th4e first three movements.
With the Eighth we are again in direct comparison with Klemperer in both the live recording on Testament and the EMI studio recording. Anima Eterna and Immerseel solve the numerous balance issues in the scoring so that one is left with a teeming sense of rhythm and ultimately of the genius of the "little" symphony, which emotionally is twice the size of the Seventh for me.
Now comes the test! The Choral. If the first eight get more than acceptable performances [as a whole], what is the solution here?
Well the first three movements are propitious. The first may miss the Maestoso marking by a fraction, but they are following the metronome as a guide, but they make this bracing and engaging. The Scherzo is a tour de force, though I could have done with more space in the Trio where details are obscured by the chosen speed. Could it be that Beethoven - as other composer’s since - here made a metronome marking misjudgment about this section?
Not for me to answer that, but nothing wrong with posing the question.
The Slow movement is wonderfully shaped at a tempo only marginally slower at the start than Klemperer, but accelerating gradually so that ultimately it is faster. But as I say wonderfully conceived.
The Finale is where things often go off the boil, but not here. The soloists are superb, and orchestra's lighter than normal sonority allows the usually impenetrable inner voices to shine through as only ever found before in Klemperer's still unmatched performances [live in the RFH in 1957 and 1961] to show more luminously. And once again Klemperer is only a handful of seconds faster in his most successful recording from 1961. Immerseel's Choir is no match for the Philharmonia chorus, but makes a splendid job of the detail, whilst laking the heft that does seem part of the meaning of the words set. but it is a nice variant from the norm and enjoyable on its own account.
Altogether this is the first complete cycle that I would set alongside Klemperer's best recordings, which have never appeared as a single cycle. Of course one must simply not compare the tempi of the Fifth or Eroica between Klemperer and Immerseel, but elsewhere they are consistently very similar, and considering that Immerseel made it a prime consideration that may interest those who level the criticism that Klemperer was consistently slow! More to the point Klemperer was very often at or near the metronome, and had a viewpoint with regard to orchestral balances that put him fifty or even seventy years a pre-echo of what Immerseel would achieve in this estimable set.
The first really interesting modern Beethoven symphony cycle I have encountered, and certainly the Eroica and Eighth will be regular guest at my listening table!
ATB from George
The tempi are claimed to present the metronome marks and short of a long time testing the claim with my very accurate electronic metronome, against the scores - a singularly fruitless exercise to my mind - I do not find that any of them ruin the music for me!
To start with the orchestra is clearly recorded, though with too much stereo separation as is the fashion nowadays. No orchestra can be set in a reasonable perspective [i.e., you are sat a few rows from the front] with this degree of separation of the sections, but this is not a serious cavil. Klemperer's 1950s EMI recordings are better, but that is no surprise to me, and the woodwind vs. string balances are alaways as fine and sometimes significantly more lucid.
The orchestra is a delight - full of crunchy peppery sounds, and a mile from the super smooth sounds of US based orchestras or the BPO. This is a relief. No seasoning with bland white pepper or the chromium plated perfection found in so much US orchestral playing but a real chance of biting down on a hot little bit of black corn-corn - rasp of real horns or sizzle of horse-hair on gut!
The balances are natural, though it is surprise that the small string section can still smother woodwind detail. Klemperer with the estimable Philharmonia never allows this basic mistake.
The First symphony is given an aptly spry reading at virtually identical tempi to those of Klemperer [who also clearly had a weather eye on the metronome markings] in his EMI recording [and the 1957 broadcast] and it would be difficult to say which I prefer!
The Second gets another straightforward performance where the second movement is blissfully free of being made a dirge in Largo tempo, and like Klemperer this movement is moved along at a clear Larghetto.
The Third - Eroica - is a major triumph. Only marginally slower than Erich Kleiber's 1954 Vienna Philharmonic performance on Decca, the much clearer textures of the Anima Eterna Orchestra really help us listen into the massive rhythmic expressiveness of the first movement, and pace Mike's comment about the unmarked accelerando in the Scherzo, I would not have noted it without his remark! As he notes, it seems to work well enough!
The Fourth symphony is a favourite of mine, and this has become my favourite performance of it, though I retain an affection for Klemperer's EMI set and the RFH live broadcast, but most of all the great 1926 performance made by Casals and Barcelona Orchestra, which has yet to be matched in my view, except for the dim Western electric patent HMV recording!
The Fifth is facing stiff opposition of course but is entirely satisfying on its own account. I would rate the Pastoral a more engaging performance
The Pastoral seems to me both clear sighted and deeply poetic, with not a foot wrong in tempo terms, and a nicely placed sense of rural relaxation, and humour [especially in the third movement], while the Storm is duly powerful and the last movement really seems to catch the spirit of Thanksgiving.
I have a one reservation about the Seventh and only one, but it is significant. I feared that the second movement might misfire for being rushed, but it is splendid! Yes it is the second fastest I have heard [Toscanini live in London with the BBC SO was faster, and not enjoyable for me], and the first movement again is wonderfully full of fresh air, but the Finale has some very strange agogic slowings in the Horns which disrupt things such that I found this not nearly up to the standard of th4e first three movements.
With the Eighth we are again in direct comparison with Klemperer in both the live recording on Testament and the EMI studio recording. Anima Eterna and Immerseel solve the numerous balance issues in the scoring so that one is left with a teeming sense of rhythm and ultimately of the genius of the "little" symphony, which emotionally is twice the size of the Seventh for me.
Now comes the test! The Choral. If the first eight get more than acceptable performances [as a whole], what is the solution here?
Well the first three movements are propitious. The first may miss the Maestoso marking by a fraction, but they are following the metronome as a guide, but they make this bracing and engaging. The Scherzo is a tour de force, though I could have done with more space in the Trio where details are obscured by the chosen speed. Could it be that Beethoven - as other composer’s since - here made a metronome marking misjudgment about this section?
Not for me to answer that, but nothing wrong with posing the question.
The Slow movement is wonderfully shaped at a tempo only marginally slower at the start than Klemperer, but accelerating gradually so that ultimately it is faster. But as I say wonderfully conceived.
The Finale is where things often go off the boil, but not here. The soloists are superb, and orchestra's lighter than normal sonority allows the usually impenetrable inner voices to shine through as only ever found before in Klemperer's still unmatched performances [live in the RFH in 1957 and 1961] to show more luminously. And once again Klemperer is only a handful of seconds faster in his most successful recording from 1961. Immerseel's Choir is no match for the Philharmonia chorus, but makes a splendid job of the detail, whilst laking the heft that does seem part of the meaning of the words set. but it is a nice variant from the norm and enjoyable on its own account.
Altogether this is the first complete cycle that I would set alongside Klemperer's best recordings, which have never appeared as a single cycle. Of course one must simply not compare the tempi of the Fifth or Eroica between Klemperer and Immerseel, but elsewhere they are consistently very similar, and considering that Immerseel made it a prime consideration that may interest those who level the criticism that Klemperer was consistently slow! More to the point Klemperer was very often at or near the metronome, and had a viewpoint with regard to orchestral balances that put him fifty or even seventy years a pre-echo of what Immerseel would achieve in this estimable set.
The first really interesting modern Beethoven symphony cycle I have encountered, and certainly the Eroica and Eighth will be regular guest at my listening table!
ATB from George
Posted on: 16 December 2010 by George Fredrik
The first really interesting modern Beethoven symphony cycle I have encountered, ...
And I am no enthusiast of Beethoven Symphony Cycles boxed together, but this one is a keeper as such. I only have one other boxed cycle, and that is the EMI stereo set from Klemperer, which is less evenly fine than this in my opinion, though none of these older performances is completely ignored by me. But rather I have better representations of the music in various stand-alone releases.
ATB from George
And I am no enthusiast of Beethoven Symphony Cycles boxed together, but this one is a keeper as such. I only have one other boxed cycle, and that is the EMI stereo set from Klemperer, which is less evenly fine than this in my opinion, though none of these older performances is completely ignored by me. But rather I have better representations of the music in various stand-alone releases.
ATB from George
Posted on: 17 December 2010 by George Fredrik
Though this set was a gift, and so I have no idea of the cost, I am going to stick my neck out and say that it will yield pleasure to anyone who enjoys the recordings by Kleiber [father and son], Klemperer, Boehm, and possibly even Karajan. The orchestra sounds very like the Vienna Philharmonia before it became internationally homogenised, or perhaps still while Boehm made recordings with them.
The pitch is A=440, so standard modern pitch. My understanding is that in Beethoven's time Vienna pitch was A=435 or a semitone higher, so this is within the bounds of correct. The timbres are of strings strung with heavy gut strings, which were not overthrown till the 1960s or '70s, and timpani are clearly skinned with natural stretched skin, and it may be of interest to note that "plastic" skins are being overthrown by natural "timp-skins" so nothing to frighten the horses and old ladies.
But most of all the readings have a real sense of music making that is lived in and worked up over many real performances rather than rehearsed and performed for the microphone alone. Yes, there are slips in terms of balance, and it is something of a shock to find a small string band obscuring important woodwind details on rare occasion, but only Klemperer -with a modern orchestra - is better among the traditional performances, and this does not feel like a mission. A mission to convince of the benefits of "period" instruments, but rather a real attempt to re-visit the music for the modern listener.
If there is a supreme triumph then it is the Eroica, but the Pastoral gets a reading that counts as being as worthy of note as the central performances from Boehm and Walter, and apart from the choir, the Choral is as fine as the best in my view.
Please don't get me wrong, the choir is fine, but my view is that the words require more heft than can be provided by a chamber choir, however fine. If there are forty or fifty fine voices, then seventy would have helped, though I agree with Immerseel that the tradition of very large choirs usually leads to lack of focus.
My favourite performance from these remains the Eighth, and so I can only say that I hope this set becomes influential for a whole generation in the way that Klemperer has been for the last fifty years. The performances are almost entirely without mannerism, and that I like very much. Full of music, and enough flexibility to be without a didactic element, but without interpretative willfulness. As such they will wear well on records with many listenings.
If these performers ever come to London, I'll definitely be there! The last Beethoven I attended in London was the Eight and Ninth with the Philharmonia in the Royal Festival Hall under Mariss Yansons. That was an amazing experience.
ATB from George
The pitch is A=440, so standard modern pitch. My understanding is that in Beethoven's time Vienna pitch was A=435 or a semitone higher, so this is within the bounds of correct. The timbres are of strings strung with heavy gut strings, which were not overthrown till the 1960s or '70s, and timpani are clearly skinned with natural stretched skin, and it may be of interest to note that "plastic" skins are being overthrown by natural "timp-skins" so nothing to frighten the horses and old ladies.
But most of all the readings have a real sense of music making that is lived in and worked up over many real performances rather than rehearsed and performed for the microphone alone. Yes, there are slips in terms of balance, and it is something of a shock to find a small string band obscuring important woodwind details on rare occasion, but only Klemperer -with a modern orchestra - is better among the traditional performances, and this does not feel like a mission. A mission to convince of the benefits of "period" instruments, but rather a real attempt to re-visit the music for the modern listener.
If there is a supreme triumph then it is the Eroica, but the Pastoral gets a reading that counts as being as worthy of note as the central performances from Boehm and Walter, and apart from the choir, the Choral is as fine as the best in my view.
Please don't get me wrong, the choir is fine, but my view is that the words require more heft than can be provided by a chamber choir, however fine. If there are forty or fifty fine voices, then seventy would have helped, though I agree with Immerseel that the tradition of very large choirs usually leads to lack of focus.
My favourite performance from these remains the Eighth, and so I can only say that I hope this set becomes influential for a whole generation in the way that Klemperer has been for the last fifty years. The performances are almost entirely without mannerism, and that I like very much. Full of music, and enough flexibility to be without a didactic element, but without interpretative willfulness. As such they will wear well on records with many listenings.
If these performers ever come to London, I'll definitely be there! The last Beethoven I attended in London was the Eight and Ninth with the Philharmonia in the Royal Festival Hall under Mariss Yansons. That was an amazing experience.
ATB from George
Posted on: 17 December 2010 by Dan Carney
Some great writing, George.
I've only just got my hands on this set - but after a first, albeit quick listen, they do seem to have a lot to say.
My dilemma is, I don't think that the perfect cycle exists. I've made a customised cycle - Klemperer, Karajan, Gardiner, etc. Although I like this compilation, it lacks the inevitable consistency one would get from a 'real' cycle, i. e. one by a single orchestra and the same conductor.
Anyway, if I can get some quiet time over the festive period, I'll begin to absorb them.
P.S. George, how is the weather in Worcester? We're travelling to Tewkesbury in a few hours...
I've only just got my hands on this set - but after a first, albeit quick listen, they do seem to have a lot to say.
My dilemma is, I don't think that the perfect cycle exists. I've made a customised cycle - Klemperer, Karajan, Gardiner, etc. Although I like this compilation, it lacks the inevitable consistency one would get from a 'real' cycle, i. e. one by a single orchestra and the same conductor.
Anyway, if I can get some quiet time over the festive period, I'll begin to absorb them.
P.S. George, how is the weather in Worcester? We're travelling to Tewkesbury in a few hours...
Posted on: 18 December 2010 by George Fredrik
Dear Dan,
For me I managed to get a unified vision of the music from Klemperer, and really his performances of the Symphonies 1, 2, 4, 5 [in the 1955 recording], 7 [alsp in the 1955 recording], 8 and 9 all get central and completely un-eccentric readings. To fill in the gaps left by the "monumental style" he adopts in the stereo cycle I have added live recordings from the Beethoven Festival series given in the Royal Festival Hall, of 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9 [1961 recording].
These are less sumptuous recordings than the mono and stereo EMI recordings, and have an additional element of fire found so often in real time concert recordings over their studio counterparts. I have also obtained the Vox recording of the Pastoral with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra from about 1950. This is a wonderful and rarely found recording. But it shows one thing that might not have been expected. The Country Dance movement is at almost an identical tempo to the EMI stereo - in other words considerably steadier than most other performances on records! It was intentional, and Klemperer explained it thus: This is a representation of a Village Band and life moves slower and with less polish in the Village than the City. It certainly works in this light, though it is certainly an eccentricity!
Immerseel brings the first cycle that I am happy to keep as a whole! I doubt that any cycle could quite please any one of us from end to end, but Immerseel comes rather close for me. And so does Klemperer for me, though in a pick and mix of performances rather than the normal stereo cycle on EMI.
Like you I have additional performances also including the estimable performances from Erich Kleiber of the Eroica, Fifth, and Pastoral.
What is so great is that so much variety and choice is easily obtained in recordings nowadays. The CD has really opened up a great variety of performances all available concurrently.
ATB from George
PS: I hope that you did not get stuck in the snow on your Tewkesbury journey!
For me I managed to get a unified vision of the music from Klemperer, and really his performances of the Symphonies 1, 2, 4, 5 [in the 1955 recording], 7 [alsp in the 1955 recording], 8 and 9 all get central and completely un-eccentric readings. To fill in the gaps left by the "monumental style" he adopts in the stereo cycle I have added live recordings from the Beethoven Festival series given in the Royal Festival Hall, of 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, and 9 [1961 recording].
These are less sumptuous recordings than the mono and stereo EMI recordings, and have an additional element of fire found so often in real time concert recordings over their studio counterparts. I have also obtained the Vox recording of the Pastoral with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra from about 1950. This is a wonderful and rarely found recording. But it shows one thing that might not have been expected. The Country Dance movement is at almost an identical tempo to the EMI stereo - in other words considerably steadier than most other performances on records! It was intentional, and Klemperer explained it thus: This is a representation of a Village Band and life moves slower and with less polish in the Village than the City. It certainly works in this light, though it is certainly an eccentricity!
Immerseel brings the first cycle that I am happy to keep as a whole! I doubt that any cycle could quite please any one of us from end to end, but Immerseel comes rather close for me. And so does Klemperer for me, though in a pick and mix of performances rather than the normal stereo cycle on EMI.
Like you I have additional performances also including the estimable performances from Erich Kleiber of the Eroica, Fifth, and Pastoral.
What is so great is that so much variety and choice is easily obtained in recordings nowadays. The CD has really opened up a great variety of performances all available concurrently.
ATB from George
PS: I hope that you did not get stuck in the snow on your Tewkesbury journey!
Posted on: 18 December 2010 by mikeeschman
For about the past month, all of my listening has been to the Immerseel Beethoven Symphonies, and especially the Eroica. This morning, I listened to the Gardiner/ORR, Abbado/Berlin and Immerseel/Anima Eterna back to back doing the Eroica.
The Gardiner is going to a friend just starting a collection later today. The Abbado is on DVD and will stay for the simple reason that I enjoy seeing them play. But the Immerseel is my preference for a good listen.
Unlike George, I can not tolerate the fidelity of older recording, and I think the Immerseel recordings have unsurpassed clarity.
The narrow bore horns and trumpets have a warm and brilliant sound that doesn't mask the strings and woodwinds. The timpani add to the expression of the work more effectively than I have ever heard. The gut strings have a beautiful, human sonority. But most of all, the phrases are so beautifully shaped that each adds to the meaning of the whole. It is obvious that Anima Eterna performed this music live on many occasions.
So the Immerseel is my preferred set by a country mile.
I'm studying the score of the Eroica as if it was a new work to my ears because of this set.
George, I'm hoping you can help me with this. Ihe Immerseel has been such a revelation, I'm inclined to rethink everything.
The Gardiner is going to a friend just starting a collection later today. The Abbado is on DVD and will stay for the simple reason that I enjoy seeing them play. But the Immerseel is my preference for a good listen.
Unlike George, I can not tolerate the fidelity of older recording, and I think the Immerseel recordings have unsurpassed clarity.
The narrow bore horns and trumpets have a warm and brilliant sound that doesn't mask the strings and woodwinds. The timpani add to the expression of the work more effectively than I have ever heard. The gut strings have a beautiful, human sonority. But most of all, the phrases are so beautifully shaped that each adds to the meaning of the whole. It is obvious that Anima Eterna performed this music live on many occasions.
So the Immerseel is my preferred set by a country mile.
I'm studying the score of the Eroica as if it was a new work to my ears because of this set.
George, I'm hoping you can help me with this. Ihe Immerseel has been such a revelation, I'm inclined to rethink everything.
Posted on: 18 December 2010 by George Fredrik
The Immerseel has been such a revelation, I'm inclined to rethink everything.
In a way, I think that is not too much to say. At least it seems to show that the Historically Informed Performance movement has at last climbed the Everest of Symphonic Cycles with complete triumph.
And yes it does make you rethink the music in unexpected ways. Really it begins to beg questions about the natural rightness of period instruments in this music, and that it becomes easier possibly, to get to the heart of the matter with them. I am sure this set does not render performances on instruments in modern set-up redundant, but it may point the way to how best to use these modern instruments for most natural and expressive effect. Such performances may well eventually lead to a re-adoption of narrow bore winds and brass, and gut on the string instruments in the normal modern set up!
ATB from George
In a way, I think that is not too much to say. At least it seems to show that the Historically Informed Performance movement has at last climbed the Everest of Symphonic Cycles with complete triumph.
And yes it does make you rethink the music in unexpected ways. Really it begins to beg questions about the natural rightness of period instruments in this music, and that it becomes easier possibly, to get to the heart of the matter with them. I am sure this set does not render performances on instruments in modern set-up redundant, but it may point the way to how best to use these modern instruments for most natural and expressive effect. Such performances may well eventually lead to a re-adoption of narrow bore winds and brass, and gut on the string instruments in the normal modern set up!
ATB from George
Posted on: 18 December 2010 by winkyincanada
Is the set you are listening to?
Posted on: 18 December 2010 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by winkyincanada:
Is the set you are listening to?
That's the one.
Posted on: 18 December 2010 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by George Johnson:
The Immerseel has been such a revelation, I'm inclined to rethink everything.
In a way, I think that is not too much to say. At least it seems to show that the Historically Informed Performance movement has at last climbed the Everest of Symphonic Cycles with complete triumph.
And yes it does make you rethink the music in unexpected ways. Really it begins to beg questions about the natural rightness of period instruments in this music, and that it becomes easier possibly, to get to the heart of the matter with them. I am sure this set does not render performances on instruments in modern set-up redundant, but it may point the way to how best to use these modern instruments for most natural and expressive effect. Such performances may well eventually lead to a re-adoption of narrow bore winds and brass, and gut on the string instruments in the normal modern set up!
ATB from George
I am feeling a great deal of love for narrow bore winds and gut strings. The tendency to "blend" with large bore instruments is very successful in Mahler, but much less so in Beethoven.
Posted on: 18 December 2010 by mikeeschman
George, to put it flatly, I want to penetrate the meaning of these symphonies to the core, but am uncertain how to proceed.
For the Eroica, I am trying to commit the score to memory, along with the performance.
But I feel I am still only on the surface.
For the Eroica, I am trying to commit the score to memory, along with the performance.
But I feel I am still only on the surface.
Posted on: 18 December 2010 by mikeeschman
The thing that is most striking about the Immerseel Beethoven is the inflection in the phrases, which is as thick and rich as human speech.
I think that quality suits the Erocia very well.
I think that quality suits the Erocia very well.
Posted on: 18 December 2010 by George Fredrik
I do not really agree with this. The clarity of phrase - the declamation which is crucial in any natural and successful musical performance - is not more apparent here than in any number of great recordings of the Eroica [or the other symphonies], IMHO.
It is a pre-requisite, and is properly present here, which is a relief, as all too many previous HIP attempts at Beethoven have missed it to some degree.
In my view what marks these performances out is the successful blend of swift tempi and a small enough orchestra for the textures to remain completely lucid, and thus the phrasing to emerge un-cramped, and not covered over in the acoustic of a large hall, or smeared by the very distance between players in a large orchestra! This is the miracle, so that the phrases are clear from the absolute clarity of a properly scaled ensemble rather than the elephantine orchestras that are the norm for modern Beethoven performances. This trend was started by Furtwangler with the BPO in the 1920s till 1954, when Karajan took over as chief conductor, and really the tradition has continued to this day. But a small orchestra such as the 1950s Philharmonia could achieve this pellucid quality in a good hall like the RFH, and the recordings [live BBC broadcasts] are marked by a similar whip-crack clarity. A few years ago it was hard to accept Bach played on chamber sized orchestras, but I hope that this set may start a trend for less huge orchestras to be generally adopted for Beethoven Symphonic performances in the future.
What is remarkable is to bring off really clean playing on these sometimes-treacherous old instruments, without rehearsing all the life out of the music!
But I guess we all hear different aspects when we listen to favourite music!
ATB from George
It is a pre-requisite, and is properly present here, which is a relief, as all too many previous HIP attempts at Beethoven have missed it to some degree.
In my view what marks these performances out is the successful blend of swift tempi and a small enough orchestra for the textures to remain completely lucid, and thus the phrasing to emerge un-cramped, and not covered over in the acoustic of a large hall, or smeared by the very distance between players in a large orchestra! This is the miracle, so that the phrases are clear from the absolute clarity of a properly scaled ensemble rather than the elephantine orchestras that are the norm for modern Beethoven performances. This trend was started by Furtwangler with the BPO in the 1920s till 1954, when Karajan took over as chief conductor, and really the tradition has continued to this day. But a small orchestra such as the 1950s Philharmonia could achieve this pellucid quality in a good hall like the RFH, and the recordings [live BBC broadcasts] are marked by a similar whip-crack clarity. A few years ago it was hard to accept Bach played on chamber sized orchestras, but I hope that this set may start a trend for less huge orchestras to be generally adopted for Beethoven Symphonic performances in the future.
What is remarkable is to bring off really clean playing on these sometimes-treacherous old instruments, without rehearsing all the life out of the music!
But I guess we all hear different aspects when we listen to favourite music!
ATB from George
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by EJS
Von Karajan is an easy target in these discussions. Apparently - and I can't verify the rumor - old vonK had his string sections doubled, and tuned at multiple pitches, to maximise the 'big-sound' impact for the 1980 Beethoven cycle.
They're high on my shopping list
EJ
They're high on my shopping list
EJ
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by Briz Vegas
I picked up this box set (I assume we are all listening to the CDs) about 12 months ago after being grabbed by Egmont on ABC classic FM (in oz). The announcer raved about the set so I jumped despite the steepish price (its no budget special). I was grabbed by the "authentic" instruments and approach to timing etc.
I am no expert but this is a good intro to Beethoven's work for those (like me) looking to explore classical music.
I am no expert but this is a good intro to Beethoven's work for those (like me) looking to explore classical music.
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by George Fredrik
quote:Originally posted by EJS:
Von Karajan is an easy target in these discussions. ...
EJ
Dear EJS,
The only thing is that I am not trying to target anyone, but only point towards a modern recording of the Symphonies that is very musical, very revealing of a wealth of inner musical detail, and is a genuinely successful attempt to bring the music to life in a scholarly fashion using Beethoven period instruments, and yet as I noted earlier "does not sound like it is on a mission!"
The reality is that if Immerseel had used any small - Beethoven sized orchestra, even in modern set up - he would have achieved something special. What is amazing to me is to be able to listen to these old-style instruments so well played within the context of superb musical interpretations. It is a revelation in the same way that listening to Bach’s music played by many of the really splendid Bach-period ensembles is as well.
So not negative at all. If you like the massive sounds of a very large orchestra playing Beethoven, then clearly Herbert von Karajan is the conductor for you, and if you enjoy Beethoven's music the most this way, then that is surely a very positive thing.
ATB from George
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by mikeeschman
George, my comments about inflection relate to comparing the Immerseel to the Gardiner. In the Gardiner, the phrases are all read absolutely "straight" while the Immerseel is full of inflection, with a nice, flexible beat.
I am loving the Immerseel so much, I wish it were edible!
I am loving the Immerseel so much, I wish it were edible!
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by George Fredrik
Dear Mike,
I did wonder! I found Gardiner sort of irons out the declamatory aspect sometimes. It is hard to declame clearly at swift tempi, but Immerseel's orchestra manage it splendidly!
ATB from George
I did wonder! I found Gardiner sort of irons out the declamatory aspect sometimes. It is hard to declame clearly at swift tempi, but Immerseel's orchestra manage it splendidly!
ATB from George
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by EJS
quote:Originally posted by George Johnson:quote:Originally posted by EJS:
Von Karajan is an easy target in these discussions. ...
EJ
Dear EJS,
The only thing is that I am not trying to target anyone, but only point towards a modern recording of the Symphonies that is very musical, very revealing of a wealth of inner musical detail, and is a genuinely successful attempt to bring the music to life in a scholarly fashion using Beethoven period instruments, and yet as I noted earlier "does not sound like it is on a mission!"
The reality is that if Immerseel had used any small - Beethoven sized orchestra, even in modern set up - he would have achieved something special. What is amazing to me is to be able to listen to these old-style instruments so well played within the context of superb musical interpretations. It is a revelation in the same way that listening to Bach’s music played by many of the really splendid Bach-period ensembles is as well.
So not negative at all. If you like the massive sounds of a very large orchestra playing Beethoven, then clearly Herbert von Karajan is the conductor for you, and if you enjoy Beethoven's music the most this way, then that is surely a very positive thing.
ATB from George
George,
Although I admire the musician if not the man, Karajan never convinced me in Beethoven (though I have not heard his digital cycle).
I meant my comment more in general, in that Karajan is often mentioned as the avatar of the grand / old fashioned approach. And because of some of his later 'interpretive' choices probably rightly so.
Cheers,
EJ