Beethoven Symponies - Immerseel
Posted by: George Fredrik on 14 December 2010
Beethoven Symponies and Overtures - Immerseel
This sounds like the most wonderful Beethoven playing I have heard outside of the great performances from Otto Klemperer and Erich Kleiber, and will provide a perfect counter-balance to their traditional [okay not traditional in their days for sure] performances from a half century ago.
Very natural performances that don't score points at the expense of the music, but rather let it speak for itself in a refreshingly self-less way on the part of the conductor and orchestra.
More later. ATB from George
This sounds like the most wonderful Beethoven playing I have heard outside of the great performances from Otto Klemperer and Erich Kleiber, and will provide a perfect counter-balance to their traditional [okay not traditional in their days for sure] performances from a half century ago.
Very natural performances that don't score points at the expense of the music, but rather let it speak for itself in a refreshingly self-less way on the part of the conductor and orchestra.
More later. ATB from George
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by George Fredrik
Dear EJS,
Karajan never convinced me in Beethoven either, but that is not important. If people enjoy one thing and me another what does it matter, so long as the important thing - the music - is enjoyed.
I used to think that the style of performance was more important than I do now. Really if someone enjoys, for example, Bach's harpsichord works on a modern grand piano, then why not? It will not be what Bach had in mind, but the greatest pianists are quite capable or recreating the music afresh on a later instrument, though it is also certainly true that the old [and intended] instrument may have much to tell us about the composer's intentions ... I would imagine many great Bach pianists have themselves gained experience by stydying how the music goes on a harpsichord ...
Given the wonderful choice of music making now available, in concerts, on the radio, and in recordings, it seems slightly sad to insist too much that one style is inherently more correct or somehow better than another as if such an insistence is a matter of fact rather than personal taste.
Equally it seems perfectly reasonable for people to be discriminating at a personal level, so long as personal preference does not become an agenda, used to attempt to undermine the tastes of others!
In that light I much prefer say Klemperer among the older greats of Beethoven conducting, and now Immerseel among the most recent ones to Karajan, but that does not make me right and those who prefer Karajan wrong!
ATB from George
Karajan never convinced me in Beethoven either, but that is not important. If people enjoy one thing and me another what does it matter, so long as the important thing - the music - is enjoyed.
I used to think that the style of performance was more important than I do now. Really if someone enjoys, for example, Bach's harpsichord works on a modern grand piano, then why not? It will not be what Bach had in mind, but the greatest pianists are quite capable or recreating the music afresh on a later instrument, though it is also certainly true that the old [and intended] instrument may have much to tell us about the composer's intentions ... I would imagine many great Bach pianists have themselves gained experience by stydying how the music goes on a harpsichord ...
Given the wonderful choice of music making now available, in concerts, on the radio, and in recordings, it seems slightly sad to insist too much that one style is inherently more correct or somehow better than another as if such an insistence is a matter of fact rather than personal taste.
Equally it seems perfectly reasonable for people to be discriminating at a personal level, so long as personal preference does not become an agenda, used to attempt to undermine the tastes of others!
In that light I much prefer say Klemperer among the older greats of Beethoven conducting, and now Immerseel among the most recent ones to Karajan, but that does not make me right and those who prefer Karajan wrong!
ATB from George
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by graham55
Please all enjoy the Immerseel set, as the extracts that I've heard on the radio lead me to believe that it's all expertly done. Yet...
...I'll stick to Abbado's recently released Berlin Philharmonic accounts for a modern performance of the Beethoven cycle that inspires, and brings Beethoven's genius to the fore.
There are other options out there, just in case anyone out there thinks that Immerseel is the only sensible choice.
...I'll stick to Abbado's recently released Berlin Philharmonic accounts for a modern performance of the Beethoven cycle that inspires, and brings Beethoven's genius to the fore.
There are other options out there, just in case anyone out there thinks that Immerseel is the only sensible choice.
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by graham55:
Please all enjoy the Immerseel set, as the extracts that I've heard on the radio lead me to believe that it's all expertly done. Yet...
...I'll stick to Abbado's recently released Berlin Philharmonic accounts for a modern performance of the Beethoven cycle that inspires, and brings Beethoven's genius to the fore.
There are other options out there, just in case anyone out there thinks that Immerseel is the only sensible choice.
I have the Abbado/Berlin on DVD, and it is very fine.
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by graham55
Mike, but DVDs are a crap way to listen to music. Besides, the CDs of the First to Eighth were remixed in 2008 for better sound on the CD release six years after the DVDs were released, and the Ninth is a different performance, with a better bass soloist (Thomas Quasthoff, in place of Eike Wilm Schulte, whoever he may be). All were recorded 'live'.
Incidentally, this is not the Berlin PO of Karajan's day. It sounds like a much smaller, almost chamber-sized orchestra, but still with enormous punch. Mike, as you have DVDs, perhaps you could comment on the relative size of Abbado's and Immerseel's respective bands?
Incidentally, this is not the Berlin PO of Karajan's day. It sounds like a much smaller, almost chamber-sized orchestra, but still with enormous punch. Mike, as you have DVDs, perhaps you could comment on the relative size of Abbado's and Immerseel's respective bands?
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by George Fredrik
There are other options out there, just in case anyone out there thinks that Immerseel is the only sensible choice.
Dear Graham,
I could not agree more! I am not going to part with any of my other Beethoven Symphony recordings because of this! And I would imagine that before long I'll get some others as well. This cycle is another angle, and if I may be so bold, the first time that an HIP style performance has successfully managed to produce a really enjoyable Beethoven Symphony Cycle on records. Strangely the research over pitch and the style of stringing and so on really brings the orchestra quite close to what the VPO may well [on recorded evidence] have sounded like forty or sixty years ago, and so altogether it is a fascinating set, but certainly not [as no set could be] a set that has a monopoly on greatness!
ATB from George
Dear Graham,
I could not agree more! I am not going to part with any of my other Beethoven Symphony recordings because of this! And I would imagine that before long I'll get some others as well. This cycle is another angle, and if I may be so bold, the first time that an HIP style performance has successfully managed to produce a really enjoyable Beethoven Symphony Cycle on records. Strangely the research over pitch and the style of stringing and so on really brings the orchestra quite close to what the VPO may well [on recorded evidence] have sounded like forty or sixty years ago, and so altogether it is a fascinating set, but certainly not [as no set could be] a set that has a monopoly on greatness!
ATB from George
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by graham55:
Mike, but DVDs are a crap way to listen to music. Besides, the CDs of the First to Eighth were remixed in 2008 for better sound on the CD release six years after the DVDs were released, and the Ninth is a different performance, with a better bass soloist (Thomas Quasthoff, in place of Eike Wilm Schulte, whoever he may be). All were recorded 'live'.
Incidentally, this is not the Berlin PO of Karajan's day. It sounds like a much smaller, almost chamber-sized orchestra, but still with enormous punch. Mike, as you have DVDs, perhaps you could comment on the relative size of Abbado's and Immerseel's respective bands?
The Abbado forces are about equivalent to the Immerseel forces numerically.
Graham55, being able to see them play makes up for a lot!
I can't imagine anyone being disappointed in the Abbado set.
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by graham55
EJ, go for HvK, if that's what takes your fancy, but think about which cycle to get.
His first recorded cycle was in the late 50s, with EMI's in-house band at the time, the Philharmonia. All recordings* are mono, recorded in the famous Kingsway Hall, with the unmatched Legge/Larter team at the controls.
*Exceptions are that the Eighth was recorded in stereo, and the Ninth was recorded (in mono) in Vienna.
HvK then recorded three sets with the Berlin PO for DG, in 1962/63, then in 1977, and finally in the early 80s in digital for CD release.
Shortly before he died, a fifth Berlin DVD cycle was released.
Opinions vary on each, as you might expect.
I subscribe to the simple view that his first cycle was best, and that each successive recording went downhill from its predecessor(s).
But, if mono sound rules out the early EMI set, then the choice must lie squarely between the early 60s or late 70s sets.
HvK was well past his best for his digital set in the 80s, and moribund when he made his DVD set.
Personally, I think that it's a straight choice between the fresh-voiced but comparatively primitively recorded EMI set and the first DG stereo 60s release.
In addition, there are a number of individually recorded (that is, not recorded as part of any of the cycles) symphonies to add to the mix, from EMI and Decca, not to mention 'live' accounts on independent labels.
So, take your pick!
His first recorded cycle was in the late 50s, with EMI's in-house band at the time, the Philharmonia. All recordings* are mono, recorded in the famous Kingsway Hall, with the unmatched Legge/Larter team at the controls.
*Exceptions are that the Eighth was recorded in stereo, and the Ninth was recorded (in mono) in Vienna.
HvK then recorded three sets with the Berlin PO for DG, in 1962/63, then in 1977, and finally in the early 80s in digital for CD release.
Shortly before he died, a fifth Berlin DVD cycle was released.
Opinions vary on each, as you might expect.
I subscribe to the simple view that his first cycle was best, and that each successive recording went downhill from its predecessor(s).
But, if mono sound rules out the early EMI set, then the choice must lie squarely between the early 60s or late 70s sets.
HvK was well past his best for his digital set in the 80s, and moribund when he made his DVD set.
Personally, I think that it's a straight choice between the fresh-voiced but comparatively primitively recorded EMI set and the first DG stereo 60s release.
In addition, there are a number of individually recorded (that is, not recorded as part of any of the cycles) symphonies to add to the mix, from EMI and Decca, not to mention 'live' accounts on independent labels.
So, take your pick!
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by George Fredrik
More or less an off-side, but this concerned a perfectly harmless exchange concerning this thread:
It is odd for me as I came to the Beethoven symphonies all by the age of eleven or twelve and the Pastoral and Eroica as a ten year old. Indeed I was already reading scores before getting to some of them. I never struggled to love them from the off! In those days on Thursday afternoon we used to do Gymnasium and Cross-country running [not a state school but a fee-paying boarding school run in some ways along the lines of a prison, but still a happy time for me] and I used to pace myself while running with the Metronome slow movement of Beethoven's eight running away in my head. I attribute my considerable success as a runner over longer distances [I was useless at sprinting, and not competitive at the 440 yards distance, but began to find my stride at the half mile, though several miles suited me better] entirely to having a steady pulse of Beethoven's music in my head! I was always left for dust at the start and would overtake each one of the others by the end! BUT I was no sportsman, and to eliminate the risk of me actually having to represent the school in competitions, I would deliberately loose if it was a qualifying race!
On the other hand I was captain of the inter-school chess team! Not nearly so good at chess as I might have been at running [and not quite the best chess-player in the school], but it is a nicer thing to do on a cold rainy day!!!!
As for music, even as a ten year old I was allowed to use the school gramophone, which was a large valve model mono machine that would play at 16, 33, 45 and 78 speeds, and was rather good. It had two 10 inch paper cone speakers mounted in a massive open backed board designed to play in a large room. It also had a very stable VHF tuner with the presets. T, L, and H, which stood for Third, Light and Home-service. These were the three BBC stations up till about 1970, and the only broadcasts on VHF for many years.
We had about 2000 78 discs, and about 200 LPs. You can imagine that I was like most normal children would be if let loose in a sweet shop! The music library contained large editions of the central classical repertoire in score form from Bach to Brahms, and added in such rarities as Sibelius, and of course Elgar, who was born only a mile up the road from the school.
In my whole time at the school [five years] I was the only person given access to the "whole" of the record library including albums of 78s banned to all others! Of course the very fact that was using them, meant that everyone in the school was given a daily dose of music in any case! And my explorations eventually took in every single record in the library! But sometimes I found music that did not appeal like Britten's Les Illuminations, and that got played only twice! But I did find many treasures on 78s such as the Bach recordings of Adolph Busch, and Mogens Woldike, as well as Schnabel playing Beethoven and so on! Including Pictures At An Exhibition played by Stokowski, and much more now forgotten ...
There were gaps in the library. Not nearly enough Bach - no organ music, or for the harpsichord. Only one recording of a pair of Haydn Quartets, and none of Beethoven's and so on Only one Schubert lieder LP, and so I came to discover these later! Also almost no Schumann or Mendelssohn, and also no Berlioz! So the period in my early twenties - once free of my father's dislike of music - was a period of second exploration. During the '70s I also used to listen to Radio Three, and listen regardless of what was on! I listened attentively to live concerts and also the Music Concrete of Stockhausen! Fascinated by the sound, if not actually wanting to investigate more of it. but my ears were a musical open door in those days!
Now I am content with the thought that if I know every piece by Bach and Haydn before I die then I shall have done well!
But I am phlegmatic about the certainty that this will not happen! The way to get to know music is twofold in my experience. One part is concentrated listening, but the other is much more casual. Simply having the music on, especially music which is not immediately appealing, and eventually - like a process of Osmosis - it seeps into you! Then it catches you and you pick it up and investigate. Perhaps the investigations is a let down, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
What I have found was death to enjoyment was too earnest a study. This usually tired me of the music to the point where I would find it set back or removed my potential interest in it. I think I did this with Bruckner, where I set off [as with Vaughan Williams] to get to know the Symphonies, and the one I could not take was the Fifth! Now the funny thing is that the Fifth is the only one I kinda like! I think that I'll eventually love it! But the others seem tedious to me now! As does the symphonic stuff by VW.
Best wishes from George
It is odd for me as I came to the Beethoven symphonies all by the age of eleven or twelve and the Pastoral and Eroica as a ten year old. Indeed I was already reading scores before getting to some of them. I never struggled to love them from the off! In those days on Thursday afternoon we used to do Gymnasium and Cross-country running [not a state school but a fee-paying boarding school run in some ways along the lines of a prison, but still a happy time for me] and I used to pace myself while running with the Metronome slow movement of Beethoven's eight running away in my head. I attribute my considerable success as a runner over longer distances [I was useless at sprinting, and not competitive at the 440 yards distance, but began to find my stride at the half mile, though several miles suited me better] entirely to having a steady pulse of Beethoven's music in my head! I was always left for dust at the start and would overtake each one of the others by the end! BUT I was no sportsman, and to eliminate the risk of me actually having to represent the school in competitions, I would deliberately loose if it was a qualifying race!
On the other hand I was captain of the inter-school chess team! Not nearly so good at chess as I might have been at running [and not quite the best chess-player in the school], but it is a nicer thing to do on a cold rainy day!!!!
As for music, even as a ten year old I was allowed to use the school gramophone, which was a large valve model mono machine that would play at 16, 33, 45 and 78 speeds, and was rather good. It had two 10 inch paper cone speakers mounted in a massive open backed board designed to play in a large room. It also had a very stable VHF tuner with the presets. T, L, and H, which stood for Third, Light and Home-service. These were the three BBC stations up till about 1970, and the only broadcasts on VHF for many years.
We had about 2000 78 discs, and about 200 LPs. You can imagine that I was like most normal children would be if let loose in a sweet shop! The music library contained large editions of the central classical repertoire in score form from Bach to Brahms, and added in such rarities as Sibelius, and of course Elgar, who was born only a mile up the road from the school.
In my whole time at the school [five years] I was the only person given access to the "whole" of the record library including albums of 78s banned to all others! Of course the very fact that was using them, meant that everyone in the school was given a daily dose of music in any case! And my explorations eventually took in every single record in the library! But sometimes I found music that did not appeal like Britten's Les Illuminations, and that got played only twice! But I did find many treasures on 78s such as the Bach recordings of Adolph Busch, and Mogens Woldike, as well as Schnabel playing Beethoven and so on! Including Pictures At An Exhibition played by Stokowski, and much more now forgotten ...
There were gaps in the library. Not nearly enough Bach - no organ music, or for the harpsichord. Only one recording of a pair of Haydn Quartets, and none of Beethoven's and so on Only one Schubert lieder LP, and so I came to discover these later! Also almost no Schumann or Mendelssohn, and also no Berlioz! So the period in my early twenties - once free of my father's dislike of music - was a period of second exploration. During the '70s I also used to listen to Radio Three, and listen regardless of what was on! I listened attentively to live concerts and also the Music Concrete of Stockhausen! Fascinated by the sound, if not actually wanting to investigate more of it. but my ears were a musical open door in those days!
Now I am content with the thought that if I know every piece by Bach and Haydn before I die then I shall have done well!
But I am phlegmatic about the certainty that this will not happen! The way to get to know music is twofold in my experience. One part is concentrated listening, but the other is much more casual. Simply having the music on, especially music which is not immediately appealing, and eventually - like a process of Osmosis - it seeps into you! Then it catches you and you pick it up and investigate. Perhaps the investigations is a let down, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
What I have found was death to enjoyment was too earnest a study. This usually tired me of the music to the point where I would find it set back or removed my potential interest in it. I think I did this with Bruckner, where I set off [as with Vaughan Williams] to get to know the Symphonies, and the one I could not take was the Fifth! Now the funny thing is that the Fifth is the only one I kinda like! I think that I'll eventually love it! But the others seem tedious to me now! As does the symphonic stuff by VW.
Best wishes from George
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by EJS
quote:Originally posted by graham55:
EJ, go for HvK, if that's what takes your fancy, but think about which cycle to get.
His first recorded cycle was in the late 50s, with EMI's in-house band at the time, the Philharmonia. All recordings* are mono, recorded in the famous Kingsway Hall, with the unmatched Legge/Larter team at the controls.
*Exceptions are that the Eighth was recorded in stereo, and the Ninth was recorded (in mono) in Vienna.
HvK then recorded three sets with the Berlin PO for DG, in 1962/63, then in 1977, and finally in the early 80s in digital for CD release.
Shortly before he died, a fifth Berlin DVD cycle was released.
Opinions vary on each, as you might expect.
I subscribe to the simple view that his first cycle was best, and that each successive recording went downhill from its predecessor(s).
But, if mono sound rules out the early EMI set, then the choice must lie squarely between the early 60s or late 70s sets.
HvK was well past his best for his digital set in the 80s, and moribund when he made his DVD set.
Personally, I think that it's a straight choice between the fresh-voiced but comparatively primitively recorded EMI set and the first DG stereo 60s release.
In addition, there are a number of individually recorded (that is, not recorded as part of any of the cycles) symphonies to add to the mix, from EMI and Decca, not to mention 'live' accounts on independent labels.
So, take your pick!
Graham,
I'll take the 1980 cycle for curiosity reasons. My feeling with Karajan is that he seems only interested in symphonies 3, 7 and 9 (I'm exaggerating) and vonK tended to keep working on his favorite works later in life, and actually got better at them. E.g. Bruckner 7 and 8, Wagner's Parsifal. So, we'll see!
EJ
Posted on: 21 December 2010 by George Fredrik
I am still amazed by this set. My favourites are still Number Eight, and the Eroica, but Number Four has reminded me that I must find a transfer of Casals' 1926 Barcelona performance, which burned itself into my memory though last listened to in early 1975 from the Black Label HMV 78s. Yes I can even remember the labels!
Klemperer still holds the "palm" for me in most of this music, but just as there are times when only Erich Kleiber seems suitable [in the Eroica, Fifth, or Pastoral] and so on, I know there will be times when this new set of recordings will be the choice ...
If one wants a starter Beethoven cycle then this is first rate, and will not eventually be found wanting. It is one facet, but a very fine one ... but it more than a starter set. It should be enjoyed by many people who have mature Beethoven symphony collections as well ...
Of possibly no interest is the fact that my favourite Beethoven Overture is the "Consecration Of The House" and this set provides a marvelous performance of it. As a child I fell for Klemperer's immensely strong and driven performance. Well now I cannot say one is more favoured than the other. Both phenomenal, and I guess that Klemperer would approve of young Meister Immerseel in this and other parts of this cycle ...
Of course we can only guess what old Ludwig might have thought. It is all opinion in that light ...
ATB from George
Klemperer still holds the "palm" for me in most of this music, but just as there are times when only Erich Kleiber seems suitable [in the Eroica, Fifth, or Pastoral] and so on, I know there will be times when this new set of recordings will be the choice ...
If one wants a starter Beethoven cycle then this is first rate, and will not eventually be found wanting. It is one facet, but a very fine one ... but it more than a starter set. It should be enjoyed by many people who have mature Beethoven symphony collections as well ...
Of possibly no interest is the fact that my favourite Beethoven Overture is the "Consecration Of The House" and this set provides a marvelous performance of it. As a child I fell for Klemperer's immensely strong and driven performance. Well now I cannot say one is more favoured than the other. Both phenomenal, and I guess that Klemperer would approve of young Meister Immerseel in this and other parts of this cycle ...
Of course we can only guess what old Ludwig might have thought. It is all opinion in that light ...
ATB from George
Posted on: 21 December 2010 by mikeeschman
Here's a riddle.
In Beethoven's 7th Symphony, the length of the dotted note (as played) determines how fast you can go.
If the long note does an alarmingly rapid diminuendo, introducing some air between it and the next note, the player can step on the gas.
In Beethoven's 7th Symphony, the length of the dotted note (as played) determines how fast you can go.
If the long note does an alarmingly rapid diminuendo, introducing some air between it and the next note, the player can step on the gas.
Posted on: 21 December 2010 by George Fredrik
Too true. The diminuendo is an immensely powerful expressive device, and a natural one. The set is full of such wisdom!
ATB from George
ATB from George
Posted on: 21 December 2010 by Joe Bibb
I have it on good authority that Santa may drop one of these sets by. 
Hopefully an interesting end to what has been a rather dull year for me in other music genres.
Joe
Hopefully an interesting end to what has been a rather dull year for me in other music genres.
Joe
Posted on: 22 December 2010 by Hot Rats
Maybe off post a little but ...
His interpretation of Ravel's Bolero is really good
His interpretation of Ravel's Bolero is really good
Posted on: 22 December 2010 by mikeeschman
Listened to the Immerseel Beethoven Symphony No. 9 last night.
Among other things, it is the best argument for narrow bore brasses I have heard. The brasses have a noble, burnished glow that illuminates the music without obscuring anything, and the attacks have an incisive quality that perfectly accents the tympani.
The clarity of the chorus is also remarkable.
The melodic sequences in the third movement have a wonderful sense of layering and color that sets the listener up for the grand finale.
Everything about this performance is glorious.
Among other things, it is the best argument for narrow bore brasses I have heard. The brasses have a noble, burnished glow that illuminates the music without obscuring anything, and the attacks have an incisive quality that perfectly accents the tympani.
The clarity of the chorus is also remarkable.
The melodic sequences in the third movement have a wonderful sense of layering and color that sets the listener up for the grand finale.
Everything about this performance is glorious.
Posted on: 22 December 2010 by mikeeschman
Just a thought, but it is always a good idea to pay close attention to how dotted rhythms are played in Beethoven, not to mention 2-against-3 and synchopation.
Posted on: 22 December 2010 by George Fredrik
Rhythm is vital in Beethoven, but if it is right and a motivating part of the impetus of the performance, then there is no reason to listen for it, but when it is wrong sometimes listening for it may help analyze what is wrong. But really a listener need only be moved by the resilience of the rhythmic work without worrying too much about it IMHO.
I do think that unless one is a regular performer, then too much attention to the detail of a particular performance only serves to get in the way of enjoying its overal sweep and swing, but then we all listen differently. I certainly don't think it is vital for most people to listen with it specifically in mind at least ...
The reason I never mentioned the rhythmic aspect with Immerseel is that it simply right and does not require further enquiry or analysis in my view. But for those who want to analyze the rhythm in great detail they will find no weakness or lack of resilient style in these performances. As ever if the syncopations [apparent in a the more disrupted or tense writing of Beethoven] are softened or badly placed the performance will immediately seem to have lost energy …
ATB from George
I do think that unless one is a regular performer, then too much attention to the detail of a particular performance only serves to get in the way of enjoying its overal sweep and swing, but then we all listen differently. I certainly don't think it is vital for most people to listen with it specifically in mind at least ...
The reason I never mentioned the rhythmic aspect with Immerseel is that it simply right and does not require further enquiry or analysis in my view. But for those who want to analyze the rhythm in great detail they will find no weakness or lack of resilient style in these performances. As ever if the syncopations [apparent in a the more disrupted or tense writing of Beethoven] are softened or badly placed the performance will immediately seem to have lost energy …
ATB from George
Posted on: 22 December 2010 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by George Johnson:
Rhythm is vital in Beethoven, but if it is right and a motivating part of the impetus of the performance, then there is no reason to listen for it, but when it is wrong sometimes listening for it may help analyze what is wrong.
The reason I never mentioned the rhythmic aspect with Immerseel is that it simply right and does not require further enquiry or analysis in my view. ATB from George
I think if you hear a dotted rhythm in a way you never experienced before, than that is worthwhile,
... otherwise, what George said.
Posted on: 22 December 2010 by George Fredrik
Dear Mike,
Not so much for you as for everyone interested ...
The handling of dotted rhythms is something which great musicologocal study has been made over the last 150 years, and the idea of making the short note over-short and fractionally late is well known as a method of sharpening the expressive "affekt," and the regular "precise" performance of the dotted note exactly as notated is quite rare in performance and can leasd to a rather matter of fact expressive effect if persisted with over many repititions over many bars of a passage of music containing the rhythm frequently in its progress.
Now for those who perhaps imagine that the score is a perfect blue-print which could be fed into a computer to produce a perfect result, unhindered by the frailty of human execution, well the dotted rhythm has always meant a variety of things, certainly since the time of Bach into the time of Elgar and Sibelius. The notation immediately demands a decision in every single case over whether to play it literally and mathematically, slightly over-dotted, or heavily over-dotted, double-dotted. Possible even over-dotted beyond double-dotted!
Mozart sort to clarify the issue with his invention of the "double dotted" rhythm. Well he did not invent the rhythm but a more mathematically more precise way of writing it down. In the "double dotted" rhythm the short note is given as half the length that is mathematically represented by the "single dotted" rhythm.
The trouble was that while Bach composed music expecting that some of the dotted rhythms would correctly be performed as double dots though written as singke dots, Mozart himself was not even very careful to use his new invention of the written double dot with any degree of consistency and carfe!
Even Elgar's own recorded performances show that whilst he rarely used the "double dotted" rhythmic notation, he used the over-dotted rhythm in performance with great frequency.
So how is the modern poerformer to know when to, as it is called, over dot the rhythm by making the short note even shorter and later than the notation would suggest if read in a literal mathematic way? This is where the study of musical style comes in and there are huge and learned books on the subject! Dry as dust until turned, in their intention, into a living performance by real and sometimes great interpretative musicians!!
It probably only need be added one thing. The dotted rhythm is never flattened out so that the short note become longer and earlier than the mathematic representaion. In that case it will always be noted as a long-short triplet ...
ATB from George
Not so much for you as for everyone interested ...
The handling of dotted rhythms is something which great musicologocal study has been made over the last 150 years, and the idea of making the short note over-short and fractionally late is well known as a method of sharpening the expressive "affekt," and the regular "precise" performance of the dotted note exactly as notated is quite rare in performance and can leasd to a rather matter of fact expressive effect if persisted with over many repititions over many bars of a passage of music containing the rhythm frequently in its progress.
Now for those who perhaps imagine that the score is a perfect blue-print which could be fed into a computer to produce a perfect result, unhindered by the frailty of human execution, well the dotted rhythm has always meant a variety of things, certainly since the time of Bach into the time of Elgar and Sibelius. The notation immediately demands a decision in every single case over whether to play it literally and mathematically, slightly over-dotted, or heavily over-dotted, double-dotted. Possible even over-dotted beyond double-dotted!
Mozart sort to clarify the issue with his invention of the "double dotted" rhythm. Well he did not invent the rhythm but a more mathematically more precise way of writing it down. In the "double dotted" rhythm the short note is given as half the length that is mathematically represented by the "single dotted" rhythm.
The trouble was that while Bach composed music expecting that some of the dotted rhythms would correctly be performed as double dots though written as singke dots, Mozart himself was not even very careful to use his new invention of the written double dot with any degree of consistency and carfe!
Even Elgar's own recorded performances show that whilst he rarely used the "double dotted" rhythmic notation, he used the over-dotted rhythm in performance with great frequency.
So how is the modern poerformer to know when to, as it is called, over dot the rhythm by making the short note even shorter and later than the notation would suggest if read in a literal mathematic way? This is where the study of musical style comes in and there are huge and learned books on the subject! Dry as dust until turned, in their intention, into a living performance by real and sometimes great interpretative musicians!!
It probably only need be added one thing. The dotted rhythm is never flattened out so that the short note become longer and earlier than the mathematic representaion. In that case it will always be noted as a long-short triplet ...
ATB from George
Posted on: 22 December 2010 by George Fredrik
A dotted Rhythm:
Hark the herald Angels sing, where her is the long part and ald is the short part, nominally taking one quarter and the long being three quarters of the full rhythmic length.
In this performance the effect is rather flattened, and the short note is rather long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDPwNPAV6tA
Whereas in this live performance of the Royal Fireworks music by Handel it is clear that the dotted rhuythm is always over-dotted and at crucially emotional moments very much over-dotted, which should give you an idea that the rhythm is by no means a fixed feast! Handel's manuscript contains only the simple single-dotted notation throughout, though printed performing editions often alter this to the double-dotted notation. Again one must be aware that any printed score is but an edition, or urtext, and cannot be taken literally!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...G0kE&feature=related
Beethoven then inserted the dotted rhythm into the famous "dactilic" rhythm in the first movement of the Seventh Symphony [by inserting it into a six-eight notation] where is is the main motivating Rhythm, and also the Scherzo section of the Second Movement of the Choral Symphony, where it contrasts so wonderfully against the smooth rhythms of the Trio Section.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Mvgw&feature=related
Under the circumstances that Beethiven here uses the dotted rhythm it is extremely hard work to keep it sharp and focussed for the span of an entire symphonic movement or section within it at least.
Here is Beethoven making much use of the "dotted" rhythm in a steady four-four pulse in the introduction of the First Movement of the second Symphony, where clearly the rhythm is initially exactly mathematically presented [at for example seconds 18 and 19 on the youtube] and later "over-dotted" [at 1 minute 40 seconds and on for a few bars in the youtube]both in a very stylish way ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SBqRaa1Qy4
ATB from George
PS: Needless to say Immerseel gets these rhythms wonderfully resilient and varied as per great stylish playing.
Hark the herald Angels sing, where her is the long part and ald is the short part, nominally taking one quarter and the long being three quarters of the full rhythmic length.
In this performance the effect is rather flattened, and the short note is rather long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDPwNPAV6tA
Whereas in this live performance of the Royal Fireworks music by Handel it is clear that the dotted rhuythm is always over-dotted and at crucially emotional moments very much over-dotted, which should give you an idea that the rhythm is by no means a fixed feast! Handel's manuscript contains only the simple single-dotted notation throughout, though printed performing editions often alter this to the double-dotted notation. Again one must be aware that any printed score is but an edition, or urtext, and cannot be taken literally!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...G0kE&feature=related
Beethoven then inserted the dotted rhythm into the famous "dactilic" rhythm in the first movement of the Seventh Symphony [by inserting it into a six-eight notation] where is is the main motivating Rhythm, and also the Scherzo section of the Second Movement of the Choral Symphony, where it contrasts so wonderfully against the smooth rhythms of the Trio Section.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Mvgw&feature=related
Under the circumstances that Beethiven here uses the dotted rhythm it is extremely hard work to keep it sharp and focussed for the span of an entire symphonic movement or section within it at least.
Here is Beethoven making much use of the "dotted" rhythm in a steady four-four pulse in the introduction of the First Movement of the second Symphony, where clearly the rhythm is initially exactly mathematically presented [at for example seconds 18 and 19 on the youtube] and later "over-dotted" [at 1 minute 40 seconds and on for a few bars in the youtube]both in a very stylish way ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SBqRaa1Qy4
ATB from George
PS: Needless to say Immerseel gets these rhythms wonderfully resilient and varied as per great stylish playing.
Posted on: 22 December 2010 by George Fredrik
And an example of the dotted rhythm where it is essential to play it literally at its mathematic measure! Rarely has a whole piece been built on such a simple rhythmic device as this ... [the Adagio, I mean, not the Fugue]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDKdrQgp_q0
Mozart's Adagio and Fugue in C minor.
ATB from George
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDKdrQgp_q0
Mozart's Adagio and Fugue in C minor.
ATB from George
Posted on: 22 December 2010 by mikeeschman
George is on a roll :-)
Posted on: 24 December 2010 by Joe Bibb
They have arrived. Plenty of time this holiday I hope. 
Posted on: 25 December 2010 by winkyincanada
Just ordered the set from Amazon....
Posted on: 27 December 2010 by George Fredrik
Dear Joe,
How are they going?
I gave them a rest for Christmas as Handel, Bach, and Schubert have come out as rays of sunlight, but in a minute I listen to the radiant Pastoral again!
ATB from George
How are they going?
I gave them a rest for Christmas as Handel, Bach, and Schubert have come out as rays of sunlight, but in a minute I listen to the radiant Pastoral again!
ATB from George