Beethoven Symponies - Immerseel
Posted by: George Fredrik on 14 December 2010
Beethoven Symponies and Overtures - Immerseel
This sounds like the most wonderful Beethoven playing I have heard outside of the great performances from Otto Klemperer and Erich Kleiber, and will provide a perfect counter-balance to their traditional [okay not traditional in their days for sure] performances from a half century ago.
Very natural performances that don't score points at the expense of the music, but rather let it speak for itself in a refreshingly self-less way on the part of the conductor and orchestra.
More later. ATB from George
This sounds like the most wonderful Beethoven playing I have heard outside of the great performances from Otto Klemperer and Erich Kleiber, and will provide a perfect counter-balance to their traditional [okay not traditional in their days for sure] performances from a half century ago.
Very natural performances that don't score points at the expense of the music, but rather let it speak for itself in a refreshingly self-less way on the part of the conductor and orchestra.
More later. ATB from George
Posted on: 27 December 2010 by mm17
And for a veritable orgy of over-dotting - Mahler playing the first movement of his Fifth Symphony on a Welte-Mignon piano roll
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...gOKM&feature=related
(Listen, for example, to around 0'54")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...gOKM&feature=related
(Listen, for example, to around 0'54")
Posted on: 28 December 2010 by Joe Bibb
quote:Originally posted by George Johnson:
Dear Joe,
How are they going?
I gave them a rest for Christmas as Handel, Bach, and Schubert have come out as rays of sunlight, but in a minute I listen to the radiant Pastoral again!
ATB from George
George,
When I get some clear listening time, I'll let you know.
Been a bit hectic of late. So I've been going through some music as background rather than a serious listen. I intend to give this set the beans when I have an empty house.
Regards,
Joe
Posted on: 31 December 2010 by mikeeschman
Just a friendly bump.
Posted on: 31 December 2010 by mtuttleb
Posted on: 04 January 2011 by mikeeschman
Don't forget, Joe Bibb, we are waiting to hear from you.
Posted on: 04 January 2011 by ClaudeP
Thank you everyone for this excellent thread.
I put the set on my wish list for January 1st (that's when we exchange gifts in my family), actually got it, and listened to the 9th on Sunday.
It almost made me cry. What an experience!
Claude
I put the set on my wish list for January 1st (that's when we exchange gifts in my family), actually got it, and listened to the 9th on Sunday.
It almost made me cry. What an experience!
Claude
Posted on: 06 January 2011 by mikeeschman
The 6th in the Immerseel set is truly a marvel, bringing home just how new this music really was.
Posted on: 06 January 2011 by Joe Bibb
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Don't forget, Joe Bibb, we are waiting to hear from you.
Hello Mike, I'm no expert or scholar like some the good folks here, but I certainly don't mind sharing an impression or two from my perspective as an interested consumer.
First it's probably worth mentioning that I first learned the works by listening to sets by Toscanini and Klemperer. The smaller orchestra or period instrument performances that I have owned have been the Norrington, Hogwood and Gardiner. The latter being the only complete set I kept. Otherwise I have a selection of Klemperer, Toscanini, Kleiber, & Bohm that make up my preferred larger orchestra versions. I've always liked the idea of instruments and performance style being as close to Beethoven's time as possible. But I can't help using what I heard first as a bit of a reference.
Anyway, I guess the concern when you pick up a set like this is whether the smaller forces and earlier instruments means sacrificing weight, power and impact where some of the larger scale works are concerned. No problems here for me, even in the finale of the 9th.
So off with the first two symphonies and they are pacey with great clarity. You would expect the leaner sound to favour these and it doesn't disappoint. Speeds seem fine, nimble and appropriate to me. Really enjoyed them. The tonal balance is slightly sweeter than I would have expected, just reading up on the instruments. The recording has a realistic perspective without spotlighting.
I think the Eroica is superb. The momentum of the opening is expanded without any uncomfortable changes of gear. The faster speeds than I'm used to don't detract from the grandeur of this symphony being an altogether giant step from what came before. The finale is as exciting as any I've heard. My favourite to date being Klemperer. The fourth symphony gets off to a flying start I think the additional pace and clarity really suits this work and it is perhaps one that I have neglected and will be listening to more often. The third movement possibly loses a little impetus but the final movement produces an exciting finale.
The fifth is great. It has all great impact and the gravitas I associate with Klemperer but if anything, even finer dramatic contrasts. The clarity of this orchestra and period instruments really add to my enjoyment here. The transition to the joyous finale is something I have always liked about Kleiber's fifth and think it's matched here. Terrific. The opening movement of the sixth is the only occasion where I initially felt the brisk pace seemed slightly breathless. Being woken as opposed to awakening? I wonder if I will adapt to it? If only because everything else is so enjoyable. The happiness and tranquillity of the "Brook" scene is delicately played and the finale is beautiful.
The seventh. This is my favourite and I am pleased because I have never found a totally satisfactory (to me) version. This one is perfect for me, I can't fault the speeds throughout or the tension built up at the beginning. The finale, so often seems disjointed to me and in some cases downright plodding (Klemperer's stereo EMI comes to mind). This is as good as I've heard so far, (always open to other recommendations) and this will be the one I reach for whenever I wish to hear it. The opening movement of the eighth is one of my favourite pieces of music. In the right hands it just seems to bristle with energy and confidence. There is nothing wrong here at all and it keeps the high standard of this set, but I have a fondness for Norrington's eighth which I considered to be a (possibly the) highlight of his LCP set.
The ninth. A surprising sense of the large scale epic nature of the Choral symphony is maintained. This easily becomes my 'smaller band' favourite. For the scale, grandeur and sense of occasion I'll reach for Klemperer and when I want an achingly beautiful Adagio - it will be Toscanini. But I will be listening to this version many more times for sure.
So my impressions for what they are worth. Nicely packaged and outrageously good value, exciting performances in great sound - what's not to like?
Thanks very much for the heads up.
Joe
Posted on: 07 January 2011 by George Fredrik
Posted by Joe ...
The seventh. This is my favourite and I am pleased because I have never found a totally satisfactory (to me) version. This one is perfect for me, I can't fault the speeds throughout or the tension built up at the beginning. The finale, so often seems disjointed to me and in some cases downright plodding (Klemperer's stereo EMI comes to mind). This is as good as I've heard so far, (always open to other recommendations) and this will be the one I reach for whenever I wish to hear it. The opening movement of the eighth is one of my favourite pieces of music. In the right hands it just seems to bristle with energy and confidence. There is nothing wrong here at all and it keeps the high standard of this set, but I have a fondness for Norrington's eighth which I considered to be a (possibly the) highlight of his LCP set.
Yes. The two later stereo recordings of the Seventh from Klemperer are majesterial to a degree that may be found eccentric, but the 1955 recording - now part of the official stereo cannon from Klemperer on EMI after the incredible restoration of the old tape master - is actually faster than the metronome mark by a tiny margin in places, and is anything but eccentric. For the sub-budget price of the whole cycle currently available, including the beautiful late cycle of piano concertos with Barenboim [1967] this experimental stereo recording of the Seventh is in my view quite possibly the greatest on record. It used to be known more widely in it "official" mono recording issue, but the experimental stereo reording was complete [the experimental stereo recording machines broke down with alarming regularity], and ecclipses the mono as a natural sounding recording of a truly great, by any standard, recorded perforformance of the work.
The Eight, mine favourite, from Immerseel is unsurpassed, though Klemperer live on Testament from the 1957 "Beethoven Festival" performance [from a BBC tape] in th RFH is just as compelling though in a basically fairly poor recording [!] even as restored ...
ATB fron George
The seventh. This is my favourite and I am pleased because I have never found a totally satisfactory (to me) version. This one is perfect for me, I can't fault the speeds throughout or the tension built up at the beginning. The finale, so often seems disjointed to me and in some cases downright plodding (Klemperer's stereo EMI comes to mind). This is as good as I've heard so far, (always open to other recommendations) and this will be the one I reach for whenever I wish to hear it. The opening movement of the eighth is one of my favourite pieces of music. In the right hands it just seems to bristle with energy and confidence. There is nothing wrong here at all and it keeps the high standard of this set, but I have a fondness for Norrington's eighth which I considered to be a (possibly the) highlight of his LCP set.
Yes. The two later stereo recordings of the Seventh from Klemperer are majesterial to a degree that may be found eccentric, but the 1955 recording - now part of the official stereo cannon from Klemperer on EMI after the incredible restoration of the old tape master - is actually faster than the metronome mark by a tiny margin in places, and is anything but eccentric. For the sub-budget price of the whole cycle currently available, including the beautiful late cycle of piano concertos with Barenboim [1967] this experimental stereo recording of the Seventh is in my view quite possibly the greatest on record. It used to be known more widely in it "official" mono recording issue, but the experimental stereo reording was complete [the experimental stereo recording machines broke down with alarming regularity], and ecclipses the mono as a natural sounding recording of a truly great, by any standard, recorded perforformance of the work.
The Eight, mine favourite, from Immerseel is unsurpassed, though Klemperer live on Testament from the 1957 "Beethoven Festival" performance [from a BBC tape] in th RFH is just as compelling though in a basically fairly poor recording [!] even as restored ...
ATB fron George
Posted on: 07 January 2011 by mikeeschman
Yes, I am enjoying the Immerseel set enormously just as you are Joe. So much so, I would like to commit them to memory, as much as is comfortable.
But it doesn't seem worth the time to learn that much about the first two Symphonies, or at least that is how I am feeling.
Why give those first two attention?
But it doesn't seem worth the time to learn that much about the first two Symphonies, or at least that is how I am feeling.
Why give those first two attention?
Posted on: 07 January 2011 by George Fredrik
'COZ Number One is a cheeky ripost and a great work! Who else kicked a symphony off up till then with such and insane first chord, and then followed up with such a succesion of brilliant ideas ...
Amd the Second offers,after such a conventional first movement, a slow movement that was a prefigurement of the Brucknerian exaltation in the slow tempo [though here Largehtto, not molto Adagio], and a unique Minuet and Trio, so that while this is young Beethoven it is still immense, and worth the trouble to follow. And Immerseel [like Klemperer before him] shows how significant these works are. Yes the iron is in the fire being forged, but none-the-worse for that ...
The Eroica is an abberation if the first two were not to precede it!
Amd the Second offers,after such a conventional first movement, a slow movement that was a prefigurement of the Brucknerian exaltation in the slow tempo [though here Largehtto, not molto Adagio], and a unique Minuet and Trio, so that while this is young Beethoven it is still immense, and worth the trouble to follow. And Immerseel [like Klemperer before him] shows how significant these works are. Yes the iron is in the fire being forged, but none-the-worse for that ...
The Eroica is an abberation if the first two were not to precede it!
Posted on: 08 January 2011 by mikeeschman
You can always count on George to give you a good excuse to go listen just one more time :-)
Posted on: 09 January 2011 by George Fredrik
The exaltation in the second movement is an essential part of the Second Symphony, and Klemperer [as a great Brucknerian conductor] does bring out the repose more than Immerseel. Immerseel gives a more Haydnesque view, though at no faster tempo than Klemperer. I think this is due to Klemperer allowing a greater "legatto" in the violin lines rather than any sense of stasis. Both the Studio recording and the live Testamant/BBC issue from the performance a few days earlier [in 1957] show a repose that is nigh miraculous ...
Both views [Immerseel and Klemperer] seem to me utterly compelling ...
ATB from George
Both views [Immerseel and Klemperer] seem to me utterly compelling ...
ATB from George
Posted on: 10 January 2011 by formbypc
quote:Originally posted by mikeeschman:
In the Eroica's third movement, Immerseel employs an accelerando that is not marked in the score.
Doesn't this come under the heading of 'interpretation' ......?
Posted on: 10 January 2011 by formbypc
I looked at the title and my immediate reaction was "Does the world REALLY need another Beethoven Symphony Cycle?" .....
but obviously you folks think the world certainly does.
but obviously you folks think the world certainly does.
Posted on: 10 January 2011 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by formbypc:
I looked at the title and my immediate reaction was "Does the world REALLY need another Beethoven Symphony Cycle?" .....
but obviously you folks think the world certainly does.
There's always room for a new Beethoven cycle, and this one is extremely nice.
Posted on: 10 January 2011 by formbypc
OK, I'll bite - I have Kubelik's version on DG LPs from the late 70s or early 80s
Can anyone comment on how this one compares?
Can anyone comment on how this one compares?
Posted on: 11 January 2011 by mikeeschman
quote:Originally posted by formbypc:
OK, I'll bite - I have Kubelik's version on DG LPs from the late 70s or early 80s
Can anyone comment on how this one compares?
Don't know the Kubelik, but can tell you this. The Immerseel set will sound better, as it is the clearest orchestral recording I have heard. It will also have a different sonority, as Anima Eterna is a period sized group playing period instruments.
For further guidance, you could read the Amazon reviews.
Posted on: 11 January 2011 by George Fredrik
Dear formbypc,
Sometimes there are obvious parallels between different completes recorded cycles of works, even if the end result is different. For example, I have pointed out the parallels with the 1950s Klemperer recordings where they exist and where they do not. Immerseel mentions only one preceding Beethoven conductor in his estimably informative sleeve note and that is Klemperer, so I think it is reasonable to assume that he is at least very much aware of the older musician's work in the field.
However, I tend to think that in depth discussions of comparisons between quite dissimilar performances of a piece or a cycle of pieces of music tends to be fairly useless in reality. It is usually coloured by personal preference, rather than the impossible to achieve but necessary [to make the exercise worthwhile] comparison in anyway generally informative and objective way.
Better to stick to absolutes.
So for Immerseel the listener is presented with a very satisfactory and clear recording, and the orchestra is of the size employed for concerts in Beethoven's time, playing instruments that are set up as they would have been at the time. The tempi are heavily guided by Beethoven's metronome marks, and the essential ingredient is that they are full of life, spirit, and poetry.
To call these performances the best is plain silly, but they are among the best for all that.
I can only say that I have found them among the very most enjoyable Beethoven symphonic performances I have ever heard, and in terms of their brilliance for me, they sit happily on the shelf next to the best of Klemperer's recordings.
I hope that helps a little, even if I cannot possibly venture a universally useful comparative quality judgment against Kubelic, who is also a favourite musician of mine.
ATB from George
Sometimes there are obvious parallels between different completes recorded cycles of works, even if the end result is different. For example, I have pointed out the parallels with the 1950s Klemperer recordings where they exist and where they do not. Immerseel mentions only one preceding Beethoven conductor in his estimably informative sleeve note and that is Klemperer, so I think it is reasonable to assume that he is at least very much aware of the older musician's work in the field.
However, I tend to think that in depth discussions of comparisons between quite dissimilar performances of a piece or a cycle of pieces of music tends to be fairly useless in reality. It is usually coloured by personal preference, rather than the impossible to achieve but necessary [to make the exercise worthwhile] comparison in anyway generally informative and objective way.
Better to stick to absolutes.
So for Immerseel the listener is presented with a very satisfactory and clear recording, and the orchestra is of the size employed for concerts in Beethoven's time, playing instruments that are set up as they would have been at the time. The tempi are heavily guided by Beethoven's metronome marks, and the essential ingredient is that they are full of life, spirit, and poetry.
To call these performances the best is plain silly, but they are among the best for all that.
I can only say that I have found them among the very most enjoyable Beethoven symphonic performances I have ever heard, and in terms of their brilliance for me, they sit happily on the shelf next to the best of Klemperer's recordings.
I hope that helps a little, even if I cannot possibly venture a universally useful comparative quality judgment against Kubelic, who is also a favourite musician of mine.
ATB from George
Posted on: 11 January 2011 by EJS
quote:Originally posted by formbypc:
OK, I'll bite - I have Kubelik's version on DG LPs from the late 70s or early 80s
Can anyone comment on how this one compares?
It's a classic, but not widely known since (to be best of my knowledge) DG never got around to publishing the full set on CD. You're very lucky to have it on LP!
EJ
Posted on: 13 January 2011 by formbypc
quote:Originally posted by EJS:quote:Originally posted by formbypc:
OK, I'll bite - I have Kubelik's version on DG LPs from the late 70s or early 80s
Can anyone comment on how this one compares?
It's a classic, but not widely known since (to be best of my knowledge) DG never got around to publishing the full set on CD. You're very lucky to have it on LP!
EJ
So there might be a collector out there who'll pay big money for it......? Hmmm....
Posted on: 13 January 2011 by formbypc
OK, Kubelik not so big
Posted on: 13 January 2011 by formbypc
I was trying to link to a website where the Kubelik box was 20 bucks, but the forum software suppressed me. Not so collectable then.
Posted on: 13 January 2011 by George Fredrik
OK, Kubelik not so big
Kubelic was a giant! His performances were always full of insight and poetry.
But like Sir Adrian Boult, he was about as unflashy as conductors got, so it is no surprise to me that DG could see no market for a CD re-issue.
I have never heard any of his Beethoven cycle, but would imagine that it would have a great deal to offer.
Hang onto your records and enjoy them.
ATB from George
Kubelic was a giant! His performances were always full of insight and poetry.
But like Sir Adrian Boult, he was about as unflashy as conductors got, so it is no surprise to me that DG could see no market for a CD re-issue.
I have never heard any of his Beethoven cycle, but would imagine that it would have a great deal to offer.
Hang onto your records and enjoy them.
ATB from George
Posted on: 13 January 2011 by EJS
quote:Originally posted by formbypc:
I was trying to link to a website where the Kubelik box was 20 bucks, but the forum software suppressed me. Not so collectable then.
In mint condition, surely more than that... It's been a while since I last heard them, but I recall that Kubelik used different orchestras for each of the symphonies as a selling point. Could be Kubelik's coaching, the cheap record player at the time or my untrained ears, but they sounded pretty similar to me.
Later, when I had funds for a complete cycle on CD, I went with Haitink / RCO. Still one of the best cycles I've heard. I have several, but keep returning to Haitink.
EJ