Beethoven Symponies - Immerseel

quote:

Originally posted by EJS:
In mint condition, surely more than that... It's been a while since I last heard them, but I recall that Kubelik used different orchestras for each of the symphonies as a selling point.
EJ

Dear Jamie,

I have two active music room threads, and will sheppard them till no further interest is shown.

It would be a shame not to, but the issues of the fixed window for posting, so that it is difficult or completely impossible to see that which is being replied to, the impossibility of easily cutting and pasting into a word doc for proofing [on a much larger font etc], and the dire quoting thing make it sufficiently hard work that when these two threads wane, I'll be off for good.

After all what use is it to polish a post if its life is numbered in days rather than years.

Without the search engine the Forum is a non-viable medium, either as a reference or for making posts that are often deeply thoughtful contributions, and I don't just mean my own. I mean those of the many very generous people who make such posts here - valuable and valid for the future.

It staggers me that the search facility simply does not exist, and all we get is some vague promise that it may appear on the next issue of software, or presumably also possibly some later issue.

Are we talking months, weeks, days, or years?

I am going to spend my time on other things, rather than waste it on some speculation that things will ever return to a satisfactory state of affairs. In other words I cannot for the life of me see what was the reason for the change from a perfectly functional system that has evolved to a fine state of tune over the years. Why not simply carry on with the evolution? There were aspects that could have been beneficially further refined without throwing the baby out with the bath-water like this.

Best wishes from George

Dear Briz,

It is a comment based on the fact that once a thread falls off the first or second page, that without a search engine, it is effectively lost. To manually search through pages of thread titles is not going to be done very often, even if you know exactly what you are looking for.

To my mind that makes the current arrangement unviable for anything beyond trite one-line replies! You can be sure that with an archive such as this one, a better answer has almost certainly been given in the past, and indeed the chance to link to an old and sagacious thread, may inform the new one with more depth than it would otherwise achieve.

Dear Jeremy,

My experience of US-based orchestras is limited to recordings and to concert relays. I love the way US orchestras play in concerts as broadcast. Often I find the recordings over-manicured, compared to many European efforts. Every tiny defect edited away, but also then conforming to a bland perfection that feels unlike a good performance given in a single sweep. The same could be levelled at BPO recordings from time to time.

For sure, for any orchestra to survive it has to have a loyal following as an audience, and indeed one of the sad things is that people who live close enough to a good local orchestra often sppend too long - IMHO, of course - listening to recordings rather than going to real concerts!

ATB from George

Originally posted by George:

If you consider the model was really Haydn's London Symphonies set they may be viewed as rather marvelous. Not as mature or seemlesslt crafted as the Haydn works, but bursting with the same sort of energy as the older man's works, and full of a new and young energy, coupled with a very developed sense of architectural power that speaks with a new and individual voice. As I noted earlier, the Eroica would have seemed a very strange fish if the first and Second had not layed the foundation of a new symphonnic voice!

As for the Fourth, well one might wonder why Beethoven reverted to a more conventional [Haydn-esque] scale and  less ample formal layout, and to me this is a mystery! But it recers again in the Eighth! The truth is that I love the Fourth, but find the eight one of my very favourite symphonies to rival more than twenty from Haydn which I have no words to express my joy in knowing. But the Fourth has an eloquent depth which never shouts, is troubling in emotional shadows which are stated with classical means [but no less powerful for their relatively understated character] and resolved in a joyful Finale which really does owe a huge deal to old Joseph Haydn in style and ethos. Perhaps it is necessary to have a strong feeling for Haydn's rather than Beethoven's music to really get inside the foruth, but don't give up on it!

George,

Very interesting comment. Haydn has always been my favourite composer and I am baffled to see how many people tend to downplay him, while praising Mozart and Beethoven (of course I agree with their opinion on the latter two). Both Mozart and Beethoven were deeply influenced by Haydn (Mozart and Haydn were very intimate friends, despite the age difference, and were constantly playing music together and inspiring each other.)

I am in the process of listening to Antal Dorati's complete cycle of Haydn symphonies in numeric sequence (I'm about half way now) and although I don't have the musical knowledge to understand why or how, his influence on Beethoven strikes me as evident. Haydn has a joie de vivre and a sense of humour that I never found in Beethoven, but he never attains Beethoven's grandeur and majesty.

In addition to the Colin Davis Concertgebouw that you recommend, Harnoncourt's Paris symphonies are a marvel to listen to

When Beethoven left Bonn to study under Haydn, Count Waldstein, his patron, told him that he would "receive the spirit of Mozart from the hands of Haydn.' It seems that Beethoven did not get much benefit from Haydn's teaching (their tempers were probably 180 degress from each other's) but Mozart's and Haydn's influence on Beethoven cannot be denied.

Claude

PS I quoted George using the traditional Copy and Paste, but I'm not sure that would work from a different page of the thread.

 Dear Claude,

Though the tempers raged between Haydn and Beethoven, I think Haydn's remarkable student learned more than he might have realised consciously!

In some of the earlier works, sometimes if one did not know, then one could be forgiven for picking the wrong composer as author! Think of the Finale of the First Piano Concerto, where the feeling is very Haydnesque indeed!

Beethoven did not pick up Haydn's good humour, joy and wit, but that is a personality thing, rather than something that could be learned really.

For me, the Haydn Symphonies from at least the Paris set to the end of the London Symphonies presents us with a body or works truly to be considered master works of a genius of the first order. I prefer them as a whole to Mozart's symphonies, but when it comes to the Concertos and Operas, Mozart was the Master of course!

Interesting that Beethoven only wrote one opera, but was equally the master of the symphony and the concerto!

ATB from George

PS: As a work round the quoting issue, I have found that you can copy and paste what you want to quote [from where ever you want] if you go via a word,doc, and then paste that [Ctrl+v] into the posting box. A round the houses way, but at least one that works on Windows XP and using Internet Explorer ...