NDX vs HDX

quote:

My local Linn dealer only stocks the Sneaky and Majik DS. I asked how one could hear a ADS or KDS and he said the only way would be to buy one..... and they dont do home demos.

To walk into a store and listen to a Majik through other kit than mine isn't going to teach me much.

I think I am quoting myself for the first time. Interesting....

I just wanted to say that if the Linn dealer was ANYTHING like Tune Hifi, my Naim dealer, I probably would have bought one of their line.

Connan personally delivered the DAC for an extended home demo. Once it was here, as a good businessman, he KNEW it wasn't going anywhere. So did i. No need to look elsewhere or demo anything else when it is this good, this synergistic.

This could have easily happened with an ADS which I tried to hear/demo long before the Naim DAC was around. I just as easily could be in the position of having never heard it and not losing sleep over it.

The bare DAC in my system is FAR beyond any replay I thought I would ever own.

Just like people's husbands and wives..... there might be something better/different out there, but this is so good and I love it so much, why fuck with it?

Sorry for the rant..... a little drunk. Back to All Things Must Pass 24-96 (so good!!!!!!!!!) This is the future. It is coming!

-patrick

Even at Redbook level it's still a great album.

Tog

but adding the xps2 or 555ps to your existing dac ( + fraim of course ) will cost you more then swapping from a majik to an ADS...much less even and u still just have one box...

phylod,

if you can arrange a home demo I would be happy to give it a thorough workout.

i certainly will not able to do that, but can just tell, that i am not so against linn as many naim members are here.
i was curious and went to a linn demo at the naim and linn dealers place.the new ADS and the new A series were demonstrated and i really asked myself, why members here have such aversion against linn products. i think they have also not been standing still in the last time. the ADS was very impressive i must admit.
something i could live easy with. the ads doesn´t fit on the fraim and already because of that reason and the look of the design i feel more for the naim solution.
the the biggest entertainment , was the guy from linn presenting their range. very entertaining ...the naim guy in opposite was just serious and boring...

i am though not really convinced about the naim new offers totally.

quote:

Originally posted by pylod:
i certainly will not able to do that, but can just tell, that i am not so against linn as many naim members are here.
i was curious and went to a linn demo at the naim and linn dealers place.the new ADS and the new A series were demonstrated and i really asked myself, why members here have such aversion against linn products. i think they have also not been standing still in the last time. the ADS was very impressive i must admit.

i am though not really convinced about the naim new offers totally.

Yes

Gregg

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:

quote:

Originally posted by Mark J:
NDX.....HDX....

Can I just ask one question?

What the hell is the difference between them?

I mean what do they actually 'do'??

Ta in ignorance

MJ

Why not go to the main site and read up on the products

Jeeesh, some people are so flippin' lazy.

That question may not be truly appropriate here on this thread, and it is definitely not a simple question at all, but it is not suitable to direct to the main site for the answer. The more I read on the main website about these products, the more confused I got. I had to spend hundreds of hours reading through the forums to find answers, precisely through posts by Phil Harris from NaimNet Technical Support answering similar questions of "senior members" on the new NDX. Even the distinction of server and client is not clear on the main site. This distinction is itself confusing for many people especially if you know some products on the market which can function both as server and client. Anyway, I purchased both these units lately, and hope to report on them soon.

I also must admit,that all the different funktions make me confused.i somehow understood,that the ndx + serve is almost the same as hdx ? But with the possibility to have radio.on the other side the second combo can just play 96 files not 192 ?why is this ? In the end the serve ndac combo is still ahead of both,but without radio,which i want. So please can someone help me here ?IT is really confusing and offturning and in the end i will buy nothing.

I also asked a technical person now to explain all the different machines and naimaudio boxes to me.he seemed to be also confused with the descriptions of the items on naims site.many combinations will end up with buying the same functionality twice.fex serve and ndx.the serving functionality of the serve is not needed really.so a ripnas would be a better alternative for the combo ndx plus ripnas.IT will have radio,but just play up to 96 files?

quote:

So please can someone help me here ?IT is really confusing and offturning and in the end i will buy nothing.

sounds like you've made your decision.

Not sure how to help you. Maybe a Google Search or Wikipedia session might help.... or a dealer.

quote:

Originally posted by pylod:
I also asked a technical person now to explain all the different machines and naimaudio boxes to me.he seemed to be also confused with the descriptions of the items on naims site.many combinations will end up with buying the same functionality twice.fex serve and ndx.the serving functionality of the serve is not needed really.so a ripnas would be a better alternative for the combo ndx plus ripnas.IT will have radio,but just play up to 96 files?

It's really simple, actually–if you have a large library of legacy digital media (e.g., Compact Disc), you'll need a way to archive it. Chances are, you'll have music stored elsewhere on the network as well that you'll want to hear. The Naim servers compile all of your source material together (local or networked), aggregating all of the associated metadata and presenting it over the network.

The obvious place where you can play the media files is the server itself–all Naim servers have a digital output–as well as over the network. Naim also supports two distinct protocols for network streaming (multi-client, multicast-stream StreamNet / single-client-stream UPnP) to other players / rooms / locations.

thank you david, but i don´t know, if you have actually answered my question.

first i find it very complicated what you write..all the protocol names . i am just not familiar with all the words. sorry...i understand, that this field is complicated and need an confrontation with a closer look to computer and net-stream understanding .


i will not use music in different rooms and am just interested to get the best possible performance for money in as less boxes as possible. i can´t build up a double fraim system.

does the serve + dac make more sense then ndx + serve regarding my demands ? both take the same place . the ndx + serve cost more but plays radio. members, who heard the ndx, comment that the dac + serve solution sounds better.how can i relate to this here ? i feel, that naim is creating a competition within their own range rather then offering a solution. first with investment in 3 or 4 boxes you get the highest performance. that´s nuts ! sorry.i try to find the best solution, but end up frustrated somehow.

quote:

Originally posted by pylod:
i feel, that naim is creating a competition within their own range rather then offering a solution. first with investment in 3 or 4 boxes you get the highest performance. that´s nuts !

That's how Naim do it. It's always been this way with off board power supplies. I don't have a problem with redundancy, in fact I don't have a problem with anything, but the overlapping products in the streaming and serving range seem to be getting potentially complicated for the sake of trying to cater for all wants. the flip side is that we've never had so much choice. the flip side of the flip side is that the more choice you try to cater for, the more feedback you get along the lines of "no no no, that's *still* not what I wanted". I am happy there is so much choice. You don't need to understand terminology or protocols, just focus on what you want for playback and how you intend to rip, download and store your music. After that it's down to what permutation of downstream items give the best playback for the budget available. A Naim dealer will guide you through.

There is no "best solution" in the audiophile world; there are advantages and disadvantages of each solution. Even the sq issue is dependent on personal taste. Everybody should decide according to own priorities, and if possible after auditing a device before purchase.

It's true Naim's multi-box upgrade strategy has disadvantages for those who do not want to upgrade step by step but acquire the better option from the beginning (having to "buy the same functionality twice"). But, this has been a Naim characteristic for many years, and it also has advantages.

I think the MAIN issue of confusion for many people is about the difference between Network Scanning - discovering and playing music files available on networked computers (HDX/UnitiServe) and Streaming audio files on networked computers via UPnP (NDX/Uniti). Naim should clarify for us this difference! The only practical difference I could come up with is this: when a guest comes to my house with her own laptop to play music, Network Scanning could take up to 20 minutes to discover the new files on the network; Streaming device could detect and play the new files immediately. (Is this true?) Could anybody name other practical consequences of the two methods?

quote:

i will not use music in different rooms and am just interested to get the best possible performance for money in as less boxes as possible.

Then get the NDX. It is a UPNP Renderer.

You will then need a UPNP server. This could be on your NAS, or you could use many different Media Players that have internal UPNP servers built into them, e.g. Foobar, J River.

The UPNP Server could also be either the HDX or Serve. Both of which will rip your CDs if you want that ability.

Later on you can see if the DAC is a worthwhile upgrade for the NDX or if a PSU might be prudent.

It is tough to give you advice without knowing what else you have and what you ultimately want to do.

If you dont have a computer or hard drives/NAS, the Serve or HDX would be great because they have optional on-board hard drives. With either a Serve or an HDX you wouldn't need anything else, no computer.

If you already have a NAS, you need to consider:
- what kind of interface you want,
- how will you control everything,
- will you have a HDTV or computer monitor/laptop to see whats going on?
- would you prefer not to use a computer at all?
- Does it need to be wireless?
etc...

It is really very simple but there are many components. With a Naim UPNP Server (with Hard drives) AND Renderer, controlled with an iPhone/Pad/Touch using Naim's apps, it should be as simple as possible. The more aspects of the process you try to handle on your own, the more difficult and confusing it gets.

Easiest/ideal method:
Unitiserve with internal hardrives
connected via Ethernet to NDX for analog output. All controlled with an iOS device and Naim app.

Serves rips and stores your CDs, then sends out data to the NDX which receives, DACs and outputs the analog signal to your preamp.


Cheapest method:
Use a computer with digital output directly to Naim DAC.


Middle ground:
Use a NAS with an On-Board UPNP Server. Maybe even one that rips your CDs for you. Then use the NDX to receive the stream via ethernet. Add DAC if desired.

Give us some more info on your ultimate goals and existing kit and we can help you further.

-Patrick

In the absence of a useful edit function, I will go on to say (and partially repeat myself) that the mists have cleared slightly. Time was when you could (if you wanted to go that way) rip CDs and store them in one unit (HDX) which would do it's own back ups. I thought that was a bit scary myself but it did offer a short term solution which was simple. Now you can rip a primary store onto an HDX but if you want to back it up you will inevitably be fishing in a pond that introduces you to NAS options. Once there you may decide that the best solution is to store and back up everything off board. Which introduces other possibilities. The path is a bit more clear now that you have to go off board for back up to start with. Whether an NDX sounds better running a 555PS than feeding into a DAC running a 555PS is irrelevant in the first instance because it's a matter of getting your ears on the equipment for playback/streaming and trying out the options available in the budget. Just like putting two HiCaps on a 282 or springing for a Supercap, which then opens the 252 door. Redundancy has always been a by product of offering these sorts of choices. Nothing has changed. At least on planet Naim. So we know where we stand.

thank you guys...

as harry mentiones: Nothing has changed. At least on planet Naim. So we know where we stand.

patrick...as i sad to come as close to my bauer DPS with a streaming solution for as cheep as possible and as less boxes as possible...

my existing kid is listed in my profile by the way.

most probable i will end up with a serve + ndac or ndx + ripnas... depends how the ndx delivers.

i don´t want to fuss around with computers, so i prefer plug and play.

quote:

The only practical difference I could come up with is this: when a guest comes to my house with her own laptop to play music, Network Scanning could take up to 20 minutes to discover the new files on the network; Streaming device could detect and play the new files immediately. (Is this true?) Could anybody name other practical consequences of the two methods?

This is not the case–everything still needs to be scanned, by something.

A UPnP streaming player needs to be explicitly fed from a UPnP server–i.e., there is no direct file access over the network:

• In the case of a guest laptop with music, there needs to be a piece of middleware installed to scan the available files on the device, then offer these up in some cohesive browse tree for the UPnP player to access. Time to availability depends solely upon the speed by which the guest laptop (in its guise as a perennial UPnP server) is scanned by its own resident UPnP middleware (e.g., Windows Media Player, EyeConnect, Allegro, Twonky, Asset, etc.)
  The degenerate version of this is untagged, folder-based navigation, which will still require some arbitrary amount of time to scan those folders identified to the UPnP middleware as scannable.
  
• In the case of a guest laptop with multiple SMB/CIFS ("Windows Sharing") sharepoints, a Naim server will scan these (refreshing every 15 min) in exactly the same manner, but will aggregate all file tagging information (not just the directory structure, nor the built-in tags alone) in its SQL database (which can be freely searched). This does not require the UPnP server middleware built into the Naim server to store the entire metadata database into system memory.

In either case, once the directories have been scanned, there are various ways in which one can manage the frequency by which the browse tree is updated–but keep in mind that each UPnP player has, itself, its own re-scan as regards available UPnP server browse trees.

This makes the Naim UPnP server significantly faster than Twonky or Asset as seen by a UPnP player, for example, and can be further improved by refining the number of entries per list subdivision (this parameter can be set from the Naim server's web interface).

This also means that a Naim server represents the best possible way to archive legacy CD media for use with other manufacturer's UPnP players, whether Linn, T+A, Yamaha, Marantz, Sonos, etc.

Now–how does a NAS figure into this? As above:

• In the case of a NAS with music, sharepoints must be set up so that an installed UPnP server software, running on the NAS' embedded processor, can scan the available files on the device. These must them be offered up in some cohesive browse tree. As before, the degenerate version of this is untagged, folder-based navigation, which will still require some arbitrary amount of time to scan those folders identified to the UPnP middleware as scannable.
  
  IMPORTANT - the NAS' built-in UPnP server can only manage files local to the NAS itself. Multiple NAS devices will each require its own UPnP server instance.
  
• In the case of NAS with multiple SMB/CIFS ("Windows Sharing") sharepoints, a Naim server will scan these (refreshing every 15 min) in exactly the same manner, and will aggregate all file tagging information (not just the directory structure, nor the built-in tags alone) in its SQL database (which can be freely searched).
  
  The distinction? The Naim server can aggregate multiple network sharepoints, across multiple devices, into one UPnP server, managing all storage, persistence, and presentation. Each NAS need only run a lightweight SMB/CIFS ("Windows Sharing") layer, rather than a complete UPnP server instance. (The NAS Simulation Utility provided with the Naim server will qualify the NAS for network file throughput under these conditions.)

If your hypothetical guests machine has foobar, and you can put it on your network, you should be able to use the "Playback Stream Capture" facility in foobar to stream whatever that machine is playing to a UPnP renderer. Or use foobar on your own machine to stream tracks from your friends machine using playback stream capture. Shouldn't be any need to wait 20 minutes .. just a few seconds.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
If your hypothetical guests machine has foobar, and you can put it on your network, you should be able to use the "Playback Stream Capture" facility in foobar to stream whatever that machine is playing to a UPnP renderer. Or use foobar on your own machine to stream tracks from your friends machine using playback stream capture. Shouldn't be any need to wait 20 minutes .. just a few seconds.

Foobar still needs to know that the files are there in the first place (because the laptop user queues them)–i.e., there is no browse capability of the guest library from a UPnP player without an initial scan at some point.

In your example, too, there will be problems of scalability–Foobar is not industrial strength (in that it can handle multiple UPnP clients well), but is probably fine for the casual hobbyist (when working properly). I wouldn't build a UPnP server product around it, for sure.

To play a track back from a pals laptop wouldn't need a full scan by foobar just a few clicks. File > Add files ( or > Add folder) and then Play - a few seconds. It would do the job that aysil wanted fine. He wasn't asking for an industrial strength scalable solution for building a UPnP server product around, just a way of playing a mate's music quickly. Which it will do. And it might even be the case that there would be no need for his pal to bring the laptop round, since foobar seems to be able to stream across the net.

Thank you David for the info.
I understand that there must be a resident UPnP middleware in the guest laptop, but can I not assume that this software has already scanned the contents of its installed laptop and will make them available to a UPnP player? If not how much time would it take for this to rescan the contents of that laptop to make it available to my NDX/Uniti?

quote:

Originally posted by aysil:
Thank you David for the info.
I understand that there must be a resident UPnP middleware in the guest laptop, but can I not assume that this software has already scanned the contents of its installed laptop and will make them available to a UPnP player? If not how much time would it take for this to rescan the contents of that laptop to make it available to my NDX/Uniti?

Not if you've added something recently–nor if you have a connected USB thumbdrive on your laptop....

Going back to the original post–the NDX differs from the HDX in the following ways:

• The NDX does not scan SMB/CIFS shares for content
• The NDX cannot offer up content local to itself (e.g., on a USB thumbdrive)
• The NDX may behave as a UPnP renderer, push-streamed to (as in the Foobar stream capture scenario outlined above, or via TVersity, for example) or as an rendering endpoint controlled from another UPnP Control Point device
• The NDX has a built-in Internet Radio client (though this may change on the HDX)
• The NDX can authenticate a digital playback stream from an Apple iPod device (on which the rendering occurs) over USB
• On units with a built-in FM tuner, well–the unit has terrestrial radio reception!
• The NDX can be fully powered from an external power supply for improved performance (the HDX requires a persistent AC mains connection)
• The NDX can be used with the n-Stream app to pass IR device control to Naim CD player / DAC / preamp (or other manufacturers' devices compatible with the Philips RC5 protocol)
• The NDX has a high-quality DSP-based DAC, with multiple digital inputs

From the perspective of the HDX, it differs from the NDX in the following ways:

• The HDX has a dedicated CD ripping drive with custom firmware
• The HDX can be used as an interactive Compact Disc player, using the internal drive to buffer the disc as it is ripped in time-shifted real time
• The HDX has built-in storage media (except the SSD models, for which this is unavailable)
• The HDX can offer up media to other devices on the network, to UPnP as well as StreamNet clients
• The HDX can scan SMB/CIFS shares for content
• The HDX can manage external media storage
• The HDX has Flash-based web browser control
• One can create playlists for multiple clients on the HDX
• In the case of a NaimNet NS02 or NS03, the server can possess multiple simultaneous analog outputs