New 250 compared to old 250 -the difference!

thanks for the riport, it’s just what a wanted to know.

graphoman

Rodney,

Thats an excellent idea! As you know who knows me, I do anything for money!

By the way, testing a XPS2 is on my mind, I have a CDPS today so I guess the difference will be....

Jonas

Jonas, I second Rodeney's excellent suggestion. I went to a XPS2 & 250-2 (& later Fraim) this year and they are really good upgrades.

regards

Dev

ps. I must have said this all year on the forum so I am making a forum pledge not to mention get a new 250 & XPS-2 & Fraim again!

I had a old 250 recapped once and was overwhelmed by the result. It was like getting a new amp.

I dont think You exced the life span by recapping a amp but I might be wrong.

/Erik

I didnt want to hear this.

All the improvements you have experienced are all the issues I think need addressing in my system.

I am getting just about everything in character except real depth and that, I am certain the 250 is the cause.

It just doesnt end does it!

I'm gagging for one now.

It's not your turn yet...

Hi
a mild counterpoint-please feel free to ignore.
I've just gone to active 250-2 x2 from olive 250's and my jury on most tracks is for the new ones.But I reckon you do need a good listen. I'm not surprised by the above review--they are very very different and in some ways a lot better. But after being a Naim devotee-for 16yrs(?>30 upgrades- I worked it out once and thought it better to forget the number immediately)--on a few tracks they can sound a little in taste (not whole) more like the best non naim hifi or naim with non naim speakers-- I've heard in other's houses --not that that is a bad thing.But to say again don't underestimate the difference without checking it out.

The thing about Naim traditionally is that If you liked the the 110 you'd love the 140,160,180,250,135's---the same amp circuit supplied by increasingly better power supply. Could I give this reassurence now--not as wholeheartedly--the 250-2 is so different in style not just 'quality'. But I do realise the 250 can not compete in all areas after so long.

To precis to the point of stupidity Naim has meant to me fast,fierce and flat(soundstage). The new is fast when there's not much bass on the track--but when there is everything goes a little slower--(?? why SL2's reportedly have less bass than sbl's). -My dear old normally anorexic sbls sound like they need to go on a diet-not fierce ?sometimes slightly fatigueing in you face SBL's, I've had for yrs.Now some love that bass and warmth--but I've always in the flat earth yrs was a knife edge SBL rather a solid slam and scale Isobarik Man
I've yet to find a track that sounds too much in the your face the way that olive/sbl's sometimes could--ruined the v. occassional track but let me know my system was on the very dynamic edge.

I have no doubt that my room dynamics are playing a large part and I may make things a lot better.Also my 52 is very sick --I've not got chance to have it checked out and all this is via 72 supercap (horror)--so maybe that's an issue too.
I need to fiddle and I was not going to post for a while yet--I'm sure you will hear me say in a few wks I love 'um--now on slower emotional tracks they are much better amps--detail imagery(occassionaly other amps have always traditionally done this a little better than Naim). You could say that the newer sound is a better (more popular)compromise- a definite part naim with new strengths. If you found that edge fierceness a pain then no compromise--if you didn't then maybe. All down to taste. But this is more of a change of flavour that a change in garnish of my previous power amp upgrades.

So why post then and be so controversial--well this is a traditional forum buy it you'll love it thread -- and you probably will --the guys that love and made olive made the 250-2--but if you are climbing the Naim tree handing out cash as u go-with a 'I love Naim' home/dealer demo only occassionally. I'd recommend a long home demo again with these(active at least)--simple as that--not too controversial I think.It's a big shift in design after all as naim will tell you--not just refining a 30yr old amp design amp board.Same hand picked high quality components though. You can always splash 'blinder'(definatly not a word!) cash on sources and preamps--the 282 I heard was very lean, fast and 'fierce'.
I've always been too busy to spend too much time at dealers.Getting off my butt and into the high st will be good for me.

So what will I do--well fiddle--then am tempted to get my snaxo wired so I can flip between sets of old and black 250's depending on the track.I wish dealers were doing home demos on 4xolive 135's still (to put them up against new and olive 2x250)--now that would be a group test worthy of inviting a few people to get a concensus.

Regards Richard
PS Have also not tried 1x olive250 passive v 1x 250-2 so maybe this is all an active thing--where the extra watts and current of the new amp is less important.

PPS I have to say I love the 500 so much it hurts.-am refusing the 552 or cds3 anywhere near my ears.

PPPS also haven't been that assertive with the snaxo settings yet--I'm begining to think why the hell I posted!!--suck it and see.

PPPPS My 250-2's are burnt in my olives are 1998's

PPPPPS If I'm not barred--wait 3weeks and some fiddling for my wholehearted recommendation but today I stand by the above.

[This message was edited by Richard Paget on THURSDAY 11 December 2003 at 00:36.]

quote:

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Originally posted by Chris Murphy:
It's not your turn yet...

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I beg your pardon, big ears?

rodney ayling said:
With respects to your girlfriend, Naim Audio should perhaps quote you and use your comments - ' The new Naim 250 power amp is so good, even Jonas Olofsson's girlfriend noticed!!!”

I think we should have more respect against girlfriends and wifes. IMHO we Hi-Fi nuts all can fall into the trap of watching not really to music but rather to parameters (better highs, better basses, better mids, better space etc.) and sometimes we don’t see the forest, only the trees.

Then comes in some outsider (=outsider of Hi-Fi) with absolutely healthy hearing and says “it seems more pleasant than usual”- well, opinions like this should be wellcomed by any serious audiophile.

graphoman

Just like to add another vote of support for the new 250. I bought one a couple of weeks ago to replace a 180, having had the dealer's 250 for a home demo the previous weekend. I was amazed at the improvement. The bass is noticeably more extended and better controlled. The rather thin and aggressive sound that I had with the 180 has been replaced by a much fuller, more balanced sound, and yet it's lost none of the PRAT [the rest of the system is CDS2/XPS, Nac82/SC, Neat Elites]. Strange thing is I'd almost convinced myself - up until a few of weeks ago - that I was firmly in the olive camp. I'd never really been that impressed with the new range whenever I'd heard it at my local dealers. But the home demo of the 250 changed all that. I guess the next step is an XPS2.

Jeremy

I think Jp echos what I said.

"The rather thin and aggressive sound that I had with the 180 has been replaced by a much fuller, more balanced sound"

Its a very different flavour--the 250-2 is a laid back amp.Still v.musical but not the in your face leading edge emphasis that was the olive/chrome sound.
I reckon I could have done a blind test and picked naim out from it's competitors nearly every time--the forward aggressive sound--echoed in nearly every review I've read. My new system is very good and in many ways better with black replacing olive--but my performance in a blind test would be much less predictive--less aggressive,more laid back--not as characteristic.
So I'll say it again--if you picked olive by audition--reaudition thoroughly the 250-2 before you buy--it's a departure(but a fine one)
Richard

Richard

Your description of the differences between the olive 250 and the new 250 is interesting.

I have never heard the olive 250 but I love the sound I get from the mk2 which I have.
You imply that the new 250 is laid back and some of the dynamics famous to Naim of old have gone. All I can say is if that's the case based on the ability of my 250 mk2 to "swing" and get my foot tapping along, the olive 250 must be a screaming nutter roaring along faster than the music.

regards
GEOFF

I think we all like to simplify the world and especially the difficult buying choices as best or worst. I'm definatly a victim of this. Is a chardonney better than a Sauvignon Blanc or a Porsche than a Range Rover.
Traditionally Naim amps have been less accomplished at soundstage,bass depth and fine detail than a few of it's competitors. They do excel at speed and timing--that's why I've bought them. For Naim to reinvent the 250 and not look at these other areas too would be plain silly. They have done so amazingly well(IMHO) and the 250 is astonishing value and will appeal to an even larger audience.
The speed and timing is still there-I'm sure still ahead of it's competitors(don't worry your foot will still be a tappin)--but gone is some of that aggression and a touch of those overemphasised dynamics obviously unpopular with many here anyway.This is natural when you turn up the bass controls.
All I have said is on some tracks in an active set up I miss this--and have a listen just to make sure you are either glad or sorry its gone. You will get a lot more in other areas to compensate for any losses. It also seems the majority of posters think this great new chardonney is much better than the old sauvignon blanc. But to those planning what to do with their cash I have to say its a different grape(whereas olive 250-135 was the same)
Richard

quote:

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Originally posted by Geoff P:
Richard

Your description of the differences between the olive 250 and the new 250 is interesting.

I have never heard the olive 250 but I love the sound I get from the mk2 which I have.
You imply that the new 250 is laid back and some of the dynamics famous to Naim of old have gone. All I can say is if that's the case based on the ability of my 250 mk2 to "swing" and get my foot tapping along, the olive 250 must be a screaming nutter roaring along faster than the music.

regards
GEOFF

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New Naim sound ----> baby Mark Levinson

Richard

Thanks for the comparison with good wine. I must admit "evening Naim listening" goes together very well with it. I guessed you analogies earlier left room for interpretation. I was just having a little fun.

Tuan

Heard Mark Levinson once attached to the most expensive speaker cable ever invented (were talking 1,000 euros / meter). Awfully polite in my opinion so I feel the baby Mark Levinson analogy OTT as they say. Of course it makes it very clear where your coming from.

As it should do

GEOFF

I'm now running all new style kit (including a 250) and much prefer it, as I find the sound easier to listen to, with much more spatial information.

The most important feature to me though is 'consistency' - virtually everything sounds good. I always felt that my 'olive' kit was riding a knife edge.

But; as ever - life ain't that simple. I had some friends over yesterday and we played lots of different music.

I had to concede that one piece just didn't work on my system. (An electronic pop band called 'Chicane'). It sounded thick and slow.

I've heard it on my friend's much cheaper 'olive' system and is has a real verve and drive that was missing on my system.

Most stuff on his 'olive' system however; I find to be two-dimensional and coarse (by comparison)

As I've said before; it's nice to have the choice.

quote:

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Originally posted by Geoff P:
Richard

Thanks for the comparison with good wine. I must admit "evening Naim listening" goes together very well with it. I guessed you analogies earlier left room for interpretation. I was just having a little fun.

Tuan

Heard Mark Levinson once attached to the most expensive speaker cable ever invented (were talking 1,000 euros / meter). Awfully polite in my opinion so I feel the baby Mark Levinson analogy OTT as they say. Of course it makes it very clear where your coming from.

As it should do

GEOFF

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I have the "new" Naim for the source (CDX2/XPS2) and the olive amplification (NAC102/supercap/250) and find this combo very good.

quote:

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have the "new" Naim for the source (CDX2/XPS2) and the olive amplification (NAC102/supercap/250) and find this combo very good.

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I have CDX2/282/HiCap/250 mkII.
Tuan did you get the XPS2 at the same time as the CDX2 or did you add the XPS2 later?

I am considering either an XPS2 or a Supercap. I would be interested to hear which has most impact. Adding the XPS2 to the CDX2 or swapping to a Supercap on the 282.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

GEOFF

Sounds like good fun Geoff!

I was actually looking forward to the same dillemma , though I'd rpobably have to try it in a couple of years . First my CDX2, then a Hi-Cap, next a 282, then a 250. Currently using jut a Nait5. But after that, I'd have to decide on a XPS2 or SuperCap.

By the way, was your 150 capable of drving the Mani-2's? They seem to be very difficult speakers.

quote:

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Originally posted by Geoff P:

quote:

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have the "new" Naim for the source (CDX2/XPS2) and the olive amplification (NAC102/supercap/250) and find this combo very good.

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I have CDX2/282/HiCap/250 mkII.
Tuan did you get the XPS2 at the same time as the CDX2 or did you add the XPS2 later?

I am considering either an XPS2 or a Supercap. I would be interested to hear which has most impact. Adding the XPS2 to the CDX2 or swapping to a Supercap on the 282.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

GEOFF

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It is a difficult question...
I purchased the CDX2 first (and it was very good) then add the XPS2 about one or 2 months after. With the XPS2 added, the sound from the CDX2 is fuller and has better dynamic and details. The rhythm is the same. If I am in your position, I will get the XPS2 first to complete the source since if you make a move to the supercap you probably tend to go for the 252 which will cost a lot more. The supercap is meant for the 252 or 52 (well I am in that position now, the next jump is the 252 or a pristine 52 if available).

quote:

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By the way, was your 150 capable of drving the Mani-2's? They seem to be very difficult speakers

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Boekster

The Mani-2's are a relative low sensitivity at around 86dB and drop to 3-4ohms in the lowest frequencys so they are a little difficult to drive, also partly because they are an isobarik design, so the amp has to drive two bass/midrange units, but you only get to hear the output from the one in the front. The payback comes in the form of really deep bass for what amounts to a largish stand mount speaker, coupled with a great midrange and the sort of imaging that is typically the strength of stand mounts over floor standers.

I was very satisfied with the sound created by my 112/150, especially after I added a Hicap which strengthned the bass and overall depth of sound. The 150 did a pretty good job of driving the speakers. I formed the conclusion that the 150 is a brave amp, not only did it take on the Mani-2's and make a good sound, during my upgrades at one point it was challenged by the CDX2 then on top of that the 282 and stood its ground. That's why it was the last part of the system to be upgraded.

That said the 250 was a major leap forward and highlighted the pressure the 150 had been under. What had sounded a reasonable and musical bass delivery to my ears with the 150 was revealed as slightly flabby and under strain when compared with the 250. At the end it's all about delivering power into difficult loads and bringing really deep strong bass and that's what the 250 is all about. I have to say the Mani-2's are really singing now. I get dynamics and pace coupled with beautifull tone. I am happy I invested in them.

So in the end it is a matter of level and what fits together best. I got great pleasure out of the 112/150 with the Totem's and could have happily remained there if I could'nt afford to upgrade.

quote:

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if you make a move to the supercap you probably tend to go for the 252 which will cost a lot more. The supercap is meant for the 252 or 52

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Tuan
Thanks for the input. I certainly can't reach up to the 252 for now( I must'nt say never because that would tempt fate). I am planning to try out both options after Xmas so I will be listening hard to see where the extra "zing" is most apparent. You realise of course that if you do get a 252 or 52 it won't be long before you want to trade in the CDX2 for a CDS3 head unit. That's another problem we both have to be carefull about.

regards
GEOFF

quote:

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Originally posted by Geoff P:

quote:

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By the way, was your 150 capable of drving the Mani-2's? They seem to be very difficult speakers

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Boekster

The Mani-2's are a relative low sensitivity at around 86dB and drop to 3-4ohms in the lowest frequencys so they are a little difficult to drive, also partly because they are an isobarik design, so the amp has to drive two bass/midrange units, but you only get to hear the output from the one in the front. The payback comes in the form of really deep bass for what amounts to a largish stand mount speaker, coupled with a great midrange and the sort of imaging that is typically the strength of stand mounts over floor standers.

I was very satisfied with the sound created by my 112/150, especially after I added a Hicap which strengthned the bass and overall depth of sound. The 150 did a pretty good job of driving the speakers. I formed the conclusion that the 150 is a brave amp, not only did it take on the Mani-2's and make a good sound, during my upgrades at one point it was challenged by the CDX2 then on top of that the 282 and stood its ground. That's why it was the last part of the system to be upgraded.

That said the 250 was a major leap forward and highlighted the pressure the 150 had been under. What had sounded a reasonable and musical bass delivery to my ears with the 150 was revealed as slightly flabby and under strain when compared with the 250. At the end it's all about delivering power into difficult loads and bringing really deep strong bass and that's what the 250 is all about. I have to say the Mani-2's are really singing now. I get dynamics and pace coupled with beautifull tone. I am happy I invested in them.

So in the end it is a matter of level and what fits together best. I got great pleasure out of the 112/150 with the Totem's and could have happily remained there if I could'nt afford to upgrade.

regards
GEOFF

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Thanks for your very detailed reaction Geoff!

Reason I was asking is because of the Model 1's I heard lately. They're not that easy to drive as well, and wondered if the Nait5 I currently use was capable of handling them. Next step in the Totem line would have been the Mani-2's, but having heard the distributor (Joenit) he discouraged me in trying them. He did encourage the Model 1's. I found them to be very good speakers, though I didn't feel the same magic when using the B&W Signature 805's, so I decided on those. Since the Mani-2's would actually be more competition on my 805's (which are a lot easier to drive) I was wondering how they would sound .

And about the XPS2 SuperCap Dillemma, wouldn't getting youself a XPS2 get the CDS3 in reach? Actually the same as getting a SuperCap and reaching out to a 252. I did pet a CDS3, which was playing by the way, but haven't heard it. Might have been best .

By the way, were exactly do you live in The Netherlands? Just curious .

[This message was edited by Boekster on SUNDAY 14 December 2003 at 23:00.]

quote:

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Thanks for your very detailed reaction Geoff!

Reason I was asking is because of the Model 1's I heard lately. They're not that easy to drive as well, and wondered if the Nait5 I currently use was capable of handling them. Next step in the Totem line would have been the Mani-2's, but having heard the distributor (Joenit) he discouraged me in trying them. He did encourage the Model 1's. I found them to be very good speakers, though I didn't feel the same magic when using the B&W Signature 805's, so I decided on those. Since the Mani-2's would actually be more competition on my 805's (which are a lot easier to drive) I was wondering how they would sound .

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Interesting comment about Joenit's opinion. The received wisdom seems to be that Totem and Rega are a match. I had this also from the dealer I went to. In fairness he was being helpfull and honest when he said he had no idea how Totem speakers would sound with Naim. When I told him the 150 was only a 50Watt amp he became even more skeptical.
Anyway I listened to and liked both the Totem Hawk's and the Mani 2's in his showroom and he let me have them at home for a demo test. When we set them up in my room he was impressed with the sound the 150 made and admitted it was very good. He was even more surprised when the 150 made a good job of driving the Mani 2's.
As with everything it was a learning experience for both sides. I think this may also apply to Joenit aswell.

quote:

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And about the XPS2 SuperCap Dillemma, wouldn't getting youself a XPS2 get the CDS3 in reach? Actually the same as getting a SuperCap and reaching out to a 252. I did pet a CDS3, which was playing by the way, but haven't heard it. Might have been best .

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That's just it.I am afraid to buy the XPS2 because I know I will then have to buy a CDS3 sometime. If I don't even go there maybe I can avoid the extra money and keep kidding myself I have the best sound already.

quote:

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By the way, were exactly do you live in The Netherlands? Just curious

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Near Eindhoven

regards
GEOFF

The Joenit man was on the money in my view. I haven't tried a 150 with the Mani-2's but I have tried some pretty capable amps with them and had serious trouble driving them properly. That said, I was gobsmacked at how well the 250-2 drove them. They go down to 2 ohms, and Naim amps really don't like that. Heh, we tried the Shamans last week and the 300 just popped, crackled and showed us the proverbial two-fingered salute. Even the Chord 1200E (350w/ch into 8, 560 into 4) couldn't drive them properly. And yet I heard them driven with 4 Rega Exxons without too much trouble!

Boekster, the Model-1 is nothing like as much fun as the Mani-2. It also has way less scale and modest resolution. It's still a good speaker, but I wouldn't expect it to compete against the B&W's. I plan to test the B&W's directly against the Mani-2's in the next few weeks.

Finally, i think the new 250 is a cracking amp. The old 250 was good, but the new 250 takes everything the old 250 did, adds a dash of better timing, a whole heap of resolution (provided the electronics at the front give it) and the more balanced presentation of the new electronics.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

The Joenit guy did now I had a Nait5, so he didn't expect I was able to drive the Mani-2's. A 150 would have been more of an amp (since we've heard from Geoff) to drive the feisty little fella's! But What I heard with the Model 1's was very, very good. I just didn't think they were able to compete with the B&W's.

Perhaps in the future, when I'm looking for a new set of speaker (hopefully not in 10 years though ) I might find myself buying a set of Totems. I do like the brand. Very much like Naim, with their own filosophies. Perhaps that's why Naim can make it sound so damn good .