Mac Mini to SuperNait: Hiface EVO Vs Halide Bridge

I thought the Halide pretty good via wasapi or accessed by Amarra but I would think the EVO could have more capability with an outboard supply. I also thought the Halide just a bit smooth but probably a good compromise against noise as the Halide is still limited to the USB power. I think 24/96 is plenty for listening and storage and it's async.

It may still be the best price/peformance compromise of the 3 as it's probably better than a standard Hiface and 1/2 the price of an EVO with a proper linear supply. The HiFace/ Halide price dif is even less when dig cable is considered. I think 24/96 is fine and it's async. I believe they do a good job with the noise but only after some significant supply bandwidth limiting.

I was surprised to find the standard Hiface has about 5 times the output of normal .5v spec. Anything over a 1v is pushing things and it's closer to 2.5v. Once you're paying $1-2k for an interface which still needs to be used with a PC and it's other configuration challenges I think better streaming solutions become very vialble alternatives. I don't think these compare all that well to the INT202 or proper streaming with better units.

with "continous process" i mean the same as you stated with the white paper (but it also says "when the system has settled…" and it is uncertain how long this takes). i want to express that it is not set up once when you press "play".

> And are you saying you can hear this micro-event? What does it sound like?!
That was my initial question with "where to stop".
When these micro-event occur frequently than it is audible as naim says. But i doubt this "micro-event" is audible in your quoted case.
But I also wonder (as i do not know the absolute deviation of this "modified" frequency versus the nominal audio frequency) whether the slightly higher or lower pitch is audible.
And if you are right than one could even skip the async stuff.

If one take into account that these usb-spdif converters have straightforward properties (battery powered or usb powered, galvanic isolation, adaptive or async usb) i asked if one has to look on the stability of the clock. Can it make a difference if the sender and receiver clocks are matched to circumvent this clock changes? What makes a good usb-spdif-converter?

jerryct - at the end of the day it is simply silly to turn music stored on a hard drive into s/pdif to get it to a DAC, so I wouldn't waste too much time speculating about the least worst way of doing so. UPnP or any number of protocols over ethernet will transfer data perfectly and with no 'guess-a-clock' games, so I'd save my money until there's a Naim network player that sounds at least as good as the nDAC. Can't be that far away. Meantime I'd trust the nDAC to be doing what it is claimed to - if the Sync light is on it's working from the buffer, and if the new mac mini can do that surely it is better value than a Halide wire.

And js has a good point too - if you're spending £1k on an interface for the nDAC, why not buy a streamer with s/pdif digital output- say a Linn Sneaky, or even a UnitiQuite which you might find other uses for if and when Naims high end network player appears.

Or just get a UnitiServe? In the scheme of things, it's not that much more than a macmini plus fancy usb lead.

quote:

so I'd save my money until there's a Naim network player that sounds at least as good as the nDAC.

likesmusic, if NDX+nDAC+555PS+Hiline+PL package goes for 18 K$ (which is about the price of CDS3+555PS+Hiline+PL) I guess you better be prepared to save a lot more for the Naim reference streamer (I bet 30 K$ to move CD555 from Olymp)

Did I tell you my stories on KDS ?

Time will tell AMA .. doesn't have to be as expensive as you might think though. Why can't they start with the nDAC, chop out the s/pdif inputs, chop out the USB inputs, chop out the Apple stuff, chop out the 'pick a clock' buffering stuff, and (having left a splendid DAC) just add in the UPnP renderer bit from the NDX? Or take an NDX, drop the s/pdif iputs + USB stuff and even the wireless, and upgrade the DAC bit to nDAC spec? They have all the right bits, but spread across products - just a little reconfiguring and the job could be done. It is ludicrous that the NDX is being advocated as way of streaming to the nDAC - just take the streaming bit from one and the DAC bit from the other and stick them in a box. Has to be cheaper than both.

likemusic, with a good transport the "guess-a-clock" game is definitely not the biggest issue.
If you build nDAC in NDX that will be USB/nDAC-sounding machine for sure-- with possibly no chance to pick up a difference.

quote:

It is ludicrous that the NDX is being advocated as way of streaming to the nDAC - just take the streaming bit from one and the DAC bit from the other and stick them in a box. Has to be cheaper than both.

The NDX is being marketed as a standalone, SINGLE box, networked streaming renderer. Just like the DS range. There are options to add external DACs and/or power supplies, but they are only OPTIONS.

I think every single person who has chimed in on this from Naim have constantly remarked that they see this as a standalone box without need for anything else. Those who seemed to have heard it have said the Naim DAC isn't really necessary for stellar playback.

It will be up to the individual users to decide if the $3500 Naim DAC represents value as an upgrade to the internal DAC in the NDX. Same goes for the PSU upgrades.

I cant see how this is any different from the entire Naim range.

-p

quote:

chop out the 'pick a clock' buffering stuff,

isn't this exactly what makes the Naim DAC the Naim DAC? Isn't this the basic difference between the Naim DAC and the internal NDX DAC?
-p

No.

So where do the differences lie then, between the Naim DAC and the NDX DAC?

Thanks,
p

You may be able to hear a difference but really the NDX is designed to be a one box streamer.

Tog

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
So where do the differences lie then, between the Naim DAC and the NDX DAC?

Thanks,
p

Hi Patrick -

Different DAC chips. The NDX uses the Burr Brown PCM1791A DAC (same as used in the HDX). According to the white paper, the Naim DAC uses two mono Burr-Brown PCM1704K DAC chips.

I've been imagining the NDX's sound as an HDX with all of the Naim DAC buffering/re-clocking logic added. But I'm sure this is an oversimplification.

Hook

quote:

Originally posted by ghook2020:

quote:

Originally posted by pcstockton:
So where do the differences lie then, between the Naim DAC and the NDX DAC?

Thanks,
p

Hi Patrick -

Different DAC chips. The NDX uses the Burr Brown PCM1791A DAC (same as used in the HDX). According to the white paper, the Naim DAC uses two mono Burr-Brown PCM1704K DAC chips.

I've been imagining the NDX's sound as an HDX with all of the Naim DAC buffering/re-clocking logic added. But I'm sure this is an oversimplification.

Hook

My Cyrus XP used dual mono Dacs - but was blown away by the sound of my Uniti. Anyone know what Dac chip the Uniti uses?

Tog

quote:

Hi Patrick -

Different DAC chips. The NDX uses the Burr Brown PCM1791A DAC (same as used in the HDX). According to the white paper, the Naim DAC uses two mono Burr-Brown PCM1704K DAC chips.

Gotcha.... I thought that the implementation of the the various chips and bits was more meaningful than the actual (relatively inexpensive and widely available) DAC chips themselves.

I assumed the analog output stages, power supplies, buffering, clock selection, lack of (or minimal) added jitter, and design of the layout etc, were what made the Naim DAC special compared to others who might even use the same chips.

I would guess the DAC chips employed in the NDX were selected in order to maximize the sound quality, and overall presentation of the NDX. Just as they are for all Naim's products.

-p

quote:

The NDX has definitely been designed to a price point (probably around the ADS mark). Phil Harris has confirmed to me in another thread that had the nDAC been 'dropped' into the NDX, it would have been much more expensive.

I, personally, would have been happier with a scenario where the NDX was equivalent to the nDAC (in terms of DAC capability),

Allen,

The NDX obviously opens the door for such a product, i.e. a streamer with an internal Naim DAC. Albeit, it will cost much more as Paul suggested.

I guess much more will be known once people such as yourself report back on the value of adding the Naim DAC to the NDX.

-Patrick

quote:

Originally posted by AllenB:
Ahhh, yes but the all important thing about the DAC chips are in the implementation:-
NDAC > pretty fantastic
HDX > pretty p*ss poor
NDX > well this is going to be somewhere in between IME (probably closer to the nDAC rather than the HDX).

exactly....
that is why I was confused at Likesmusic's comment at the top of this page stating:

"Why can't they start with the nDAC, chop out the s/pdif inputs, chop out the USB inputs, chop out the Apple stuff, chop out the 'pick a clock' buffering stuff, and (having left a splendid DAC) just add in the UPnP renderer bit from the NDX?"

My point was that he seemed to eliminate everything that makes the Naim DAC special.

-p

both white papers suggest more differences than the usage of a different burr brown dac chip. the dac ship in the ndx does the i2v whereas the ndac has a naim-designed i2v. also the white paper says that the ndx uses VCXOs (which can inject noise). also they are stating in the ndac paper that the oscillator generates a sine wave. this is not mentioned in the ndx paper. also the analogue output filter seems to be different (the ndx uses burr brown op amps where as the ndac uses no op amps and naim designed circuit)

quote:

My Cyrus XP used dual mono Dacs - but was blown away by the sound of my Uniti. Anyone know what Dac chip the Uniti uses?

Tog

I don't see much logic in these considerations. CD555 also uses two mono DACs (actually these are Burr-Brown PCM1704K DAC chips -- same as nDAC). Will it be blown out by Unity as well?

quote:

WHY couldn't Naim have just dropped in the UPnP renderer into a nDAC, add the screen and larger casework? Would that have pushed the costs up so far?

Not sure.

Maybe that type of streamer is coming.
Maybe that compromises the SQ of the Naim DAC.
Maybe they wanted to make a PURE external DAC first, before they released a streamer.
Maybe the initial goal was to create the BEST sounding DAC possible and jamming more computer bits inside took things in the wrong direction.

Sticking more things into a Naim DAC makes more sense to me than stripping the Naim DAC of what makes it special.

In the end, I am not going to get hung up on box count. I would rather have more flexibility and the ability to have the best DAC Naim offers and not drop $18K (KDS).

-Patrick

quote:

Well I do have a lot of sympathy with his argument. WHY couldn't Naim have just dropped in the UPnP renderer into a nDAC, add the screen and larger casework? Would that have pushed the costs up so far?

Allen, these all make up a big scope of work. First - to design the new gear, second - to fine-tune it works reliably, third - to allocate resources for production, fourth - to train staff in assembling the new gear, fifth - to manage production. It's not as easy as "drop a UpnP renderer" or "add the screen". You are talking about adding a fully spec computer inside nDAC.

My reading of the nDAC and NDX white papers agrees with jeryct's points. I also suspect that power regulation to the NDX's analogue stages is simpler than that for the nDAC. However, I am anxiously awaiting comparisons of NDX with nDAC as I suspect that the different DAC implementations will make less difference to sound quality than the widely reported differences between different sources (especially memory stick compared to SP/DIF) for the nDAC. Having read numerous posts about the nDAC, I conjecture that deficiencies in SP/DIF other than jitter limit the nDACs (and NDX's) performance when using SP/DIF. The great thing about the NDX is that for one's main listening SP/DIF can be conveniently avoided by using streaming from a UPnP NAS drive (or UnitiServe, etc.)

Returning to the differences between the nDAC and NDX DAC implementations, I think the different DAC chips used do not make a lot of difference as both have inaudible noise levels. The use of discrete rather than integrated circuitry for the analogue stages in the nDAC gives more opportunity for voicing the output, but does not necessarily improve sound quality.
Maybe the 'exotic' output stages are used in the nDAC more for marketing reasons than sound quality.

It has been reported in another thread in this forum that adding an external power supply to the NDX makes a much bigger improvement than adding an nDAC, again suggesting the DAC implementations do not make much difference to sound quality.

Im my humble opinion, the NDX design is being criticised too soon.

Phil Harris from Naim was asked on this thread "why didn't the NDX start from the nDAC level and build on that?"

and he answered:

"Because that would have ended up being a much more expensive product .. it's like saying that if we bring out a new XS Series integrated amp why don't we start at the XS pre-power level and build on that..."

Doesn't mean that Naim can't or aren't starting with the nDAC and building on it; just that the NDX ain't it, much as some of those buying or selling it would seem to wish it was.

quote:

Originally posted by likesmusic:
jerryct - at the end of the day it is simply silly to turn music stored on a hard drive into s/pdif to get it to a DAC, so I wouldn't waste too much time speculating about the least worst way of doing so. UPnP or any number of protocols over ethernet will transfer data perfectly and with no 'guess-a-clock' games, so I'd save my money until there's a Naim network player that
sounds at least as good as the nDAC. Can't be that far away. Meantime I'd trust the nDAC to be doing what it is claimed to - if the Sync light is on it's working from the buffer, and if the new mac mini can do that surely it is better value than a Halide wire.

And js has a good point too - if you're spending £1k on an interface for the nDAC, why not buy a streamer with s/pdif digital output- say a Linn Sneaky, or even a UnitiQuite which you might find other uses for if and when Naims high end
network player appears.

Or just get a UnitiServe? In the scheme of things, it's not that much more than a macmini plus fancy usb lead.

Or a Uniti - which makes a great streamer preamp with a Nap 200.

Tog

Let's face it, there is no really satisfying, clean way of getting music from a hard-disc to an nDAC.

quote:

Let's face it, there is no really satisfying, clean way of getting music from a hard-disc to an nDAC.

Soundcard connected to DAC via digital cable. Clean and satisfies me.