Kind Of Blue - The Greatest or Overated?

I don't consider it the greatest but one of the most important Jazz recordings. There is an interesting documentary I have somewhere on DVD, focusing on the making of KoB. It gives a lot of background info on the artistic concept behind it that made me appreciate it even more.

To my knowledge it is still the best selling Jazz album of all times.

I think it's possibly a bad 'entry' into Jazz because it represented a turning point - a move away from the mainstream, which was centred around improvisation on standard songs, and a move toward improvised modal structures.

Either pick an entry point long before it or after it, but not at the change point.

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:

so really is [Kind Of Blue] better than any other great Jazz album? because if I was going to pick a better one I'd pick Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus.

Hi, Dean ...

1. No, Kind Of Blue is not "better (emphasis mine) than any other great jazz album."

2. However, Kind Of Blue is just as great as any other great jazz album.

3. Why do you feel that Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus is better than Kind Of Blue? They are very different albums, and you may prefer one to the other, but why is it a better album?

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by formbypc:

I think it's possibly a bad 'entry' into Jazz because it represented a turning point - a move away from the mainstream, which was centred around improvisation on standard songs, and a move toward improvised modal structures.

Either pick an entry point long before it or after it, but not at the change point.

But the question wasn't whether Kind Of Blue was a good entry to jazz or not, but whether it was "The Greatest or Overrated," to which the answer(s), in my view, are: 1.) No, not "The Greatest," but equal to the greatest, and, 2.) Definitely not overrated.

I take your point about the evolutionary status of Kind Of Blue, and it's true, but I don't see how that affects whether or not it's a good entry into jazz ... it's a very accessible album, and is unequivocally jazz music of the highest caliber, so it seems a perfectly likely candidate as an introduction to jazz. Otherwise, all bets are off and one should just start from the very beginning and work through chronologically ... every major development of jazz builds upon and departs from its predecessor.

All best,
Fred

In David Lodge's wonderful novel 'Small World', the hero, Perse McGarrigal is working on his doctoral thesis, 'The influence of TS Eliot on Shakespeare'.

Of course, a satirical point well and truly aimed at some of the more up self-important aspects of academe, but actually some truth. Those of us who look back on texts, music etc, cannot avoid the fact that we do so through the 'spectacals' of all that has happened in between, and that affects our reading of that earlier text.

So, when it comes to the seminal 'Kind of Blue', we now necessarily hear it with all the subsequent music it helped to 'spawn/release' in our minds, which wouldn't have happened without KoB, and that affects the way we hear KoB now.

And of course there are two aspects to KoB - the music itself, and the Cool!! Both watershed.

So it is great music and continues to be of influence. But how can anyone ever quantify any individal LP as 'greatest [ever]'?

Happy new year.

James

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:

So [KoB] is great music and continues to be of influence. But how can anyone ever quantify any individual LP as 'greatest [ever]'?

Exactly ... you can't! Especially when to comes to albums which should be more accurately be described as "among the greatest ever."

All best,
Fred

Funnily enough it was my entry into jazz and I still love it today. But personally I love jazz that swings and it certainly does.

It is also reasonably accessible for many rock fans to get into because of it's improvisational qualities and "cool" image.

Duane Allman once said that KOB was the Allman Brothers inspiration for their long jams.

Yep for me it is a great jazz album but like Fred says one of many.

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

quote:

Originally posted by formbypc:

I think it's possibly a bad 'entry' into Jazz because it represented a turning point - a move away from the mainstream, which was centred around improvisation on standard songs, and a move toward improvised modal structures.

Either pick an entry point long before it or after it, but not at the change point.

But the question wasn't whether Kind Of Blue was a good entry to jazz or not...

Please read the first line of the OP ....

Dean

IMO there is no 'greatest album' as Fred points out. However there is the personal point of view of the individual listener to consider. You mention Mingus, Mingus.... as an album that you connect with more clearly than KoB. For others it is quite possibly the other way round. It is clearly not a straightforward issue that to your ears KoB is a cacophony of sound that you don't get because by those standards you should have similar problems with Mingus.

Setting aside the 'greatest' label and just viewing KoB as another jazz recording maybe you could attempt some explanation of why you don't connect with it. Is it the trumpet playing of Miles, the saxaphone soloing, a feeling that each track is the 'same' or what?

regards
geoff

Those are major recordings but I've felt they're a bit like walking into a room full of Pollack paintings. It can really set your nerves on end.

I entered jazz from the relaxed vocal end of the masters Ella Duke Basie Etta and other danceable music.

I know R&Rers want intensity but I can't listen to it.

Is it the first music of any genre in which the space between the notes played is as important as the notes themselves?

It is probably the most iconic - which is different from the 'greatest'.

G

I used to love this album so much and played it all the time. But I wore it out. Now I just love it but do not listen to it too often.

Thanks for all the replies.

Now my feelings towards KOB, as asked by Geoff and Fred, are that to me objectively and not going into a long drawn out appraisal is that KOB comes across as individuals having an exercise in playing instruments where Mingus Mingus is band playing music and for me it lacks the energy and vitality that the Mingus album has in spades. This could just be because its the first of its kind and they really have no clue where its all going as the first of any new thing does, just look at early Punk or House music.

I asked the question as over the past few years of reading music forums that KOB is taken as being great without a reasoning for why. This could just be a wrong interpretation on my part when it is mentioned and offered as an entry into Jazz though, but when helping someone into a new genre you do tend to pick the best of that genre as an entry, I've done it many times with Electronic music.



Dean..

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
I've done it many times with Electronic music.
Dean..

Dean, what electronic album(s) do you recommend, and which styles of electronic music?

I must say that I would recommend 'Kind of Blue' to a large extent as it has blues chord structures which are easily recognisable to people coming from a lot of different styles of music. Added to that is such a relaxing album, which can offer a contrast to a great deal of modern music, and so can fill a space that is missing from some music collections.

There is a lot of soloing, but it is of such a high quality I have no problem with that. I would certainly say that the soloists know exactly where they are going, they are just in no hurry to get there.

It isn't my favourite Miles Davis album, that would be 'In a Silent Way', but it was my introduction. I love Mingus too, and Monk would be among my initial recommendations too.

I agree with Fred. KoB is no less great than the greatest jazz albums but I would not elevate above all other great albums. It just works as a good introduction because not only is it one of the greatest albums ever, it is also accessible and timeless. I think Bitch's Brew is great for different reasons but I wouldn't unreservedly recommend it, or A Love Supreme for that matter, to someone beginning an exploration of jazz.

A part from having lots of Blue in the titles, it doesn't strike me as a blues based album.
I can't get this album at all, I don't know why?
I suspect that it's down to blown instruments in the band.Except for Jethro Tull, I can't think of too many(any) other non classical music featuring blown instruments, that I have. It seems to be a mark of good jazz technique to make said instruments squeak the reed or overblow the mouthpiece, may be not so obvious on KOB.

Today I listened to KOB, and EST live, although I probably won't play EST every day it was a much more satisfying exercise.

quote:

Originally posted by JamieL_v2:

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
I've done it many times with Electronic music.
Dean..

Dean, what electronic album(s) do you recommend, and which styles of electronic music?

If it modern Electronic then...

Boards Of Canada - Music Has The Right To Children

Aphex Twin - Selected Ambient Works

Massive Attack - Protection

Thievery Corporation - Richest Man In Babylon

Older Electronic...

Tangerine Dream - Stratosphere

Kraftwerk - Man Machine

Jean Michel Jarre - Oxygene



They are classics in the genre though I would try to find out what people have been exposed to first and select accordingly.



Dean...

quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Hutton:

Is it the first music of any genre in which the space between the notes played is as important as the notes themselves?

Certainly not the first to do so, but that is a significant component of this music, and is, in fact, the stated aim of Miles himself.

Not even the first in jazz ... various musicians such as Lester Young, Thelonious Monk, Count Basie and others had already embraced sparseness as an important musical element. Pianist Bill Evans, too, which is one reason he figures prominently on Kind Of Blue.

quote:

Originally posted by formbypc:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

But the question wasn't whether Kind Of Blue was a good entry to jazz or not...

Please read the first line of the OP ....

Yes, he mentions that KoB happened to be his entry into jazz, but my point is that he's not asking whether it's an appropriate entry, he's asking whether it's "the greatest or overated."

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

quote:

Originally posted by formbypc:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

But the question wasn't whether Kind Of Blue was a good entry to jazz or not...

Please read the first line of the OP ....

Yes, he mentions that KoB happened to be his entry into jazz, but my point is that he's not asking whether it's an appropriate entry, he's asking whether it's "the greatest or overrated."

Fred,


I was hoping it would start a wider debate. I try to put up controversial titles to reel people in though.



Dean...

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:
Older Electronic...

Tangerine Dream - Stratosphere

Kraftwerk - Man Machine

Jean Michel Jarre - Oxygene



They are classics in the genre though I would try to find out what people have been exposed to first and select accordingly.



Dean...

Gee... I thought I was the only one still listening to Stratosphere!

As for the question asked, I don't know enough about jazz to determine if Kind of Blue is the greatest jazz album ever... but I personally rank it very high on my list.

Claude

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:

KOB comes across as individuals having an exercise in playing instruments where Mingus Mingus is band playing music and for me it lacks the energy and vitality that the Mingus album has in spades.

KoB has its own energy and vitality ... less aggressive, more subtlety and understatement, more watercolor vs. oil, if you will. In fact, in its liner notes, pianist Bill Evans writes about the art of Japanese brush painting, in which ink is applied to moistened paper and there's no possibility for revision. Of course, Evans is using this as a metaphor for improvisation in general, but also to describe KoB to the ethereal translucency of brush painting.

Make of this what you will, of course, but know that this is no mere "exercise in playing instruments."

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

quote:

Originally posted by Graeme Hutton:

Is it the first music of any genre in which the space between the notes played is as important as the notes themselves?

Certainly not the first to do so, but that is a significant component of this music, and is, in fact, the stated aim of Miles himself.

Not even the first in jazz ... various musicians such as Lester Young, Thelonious Monk, Count Basie and others had already embraced sparseness as an important musical element. Pianist Bill Evans, too, which is one reason he figures prominently on Kind Of Blue.

Not sure 'sparseness' is the same thing Fred but I see your point, particularly with regard to Monk. Regardless, KoB is a timeless masterwork.

G

I have it on 45 and I think it is the greatest.

I don't play it often, but on 45, everybody notices.

KoB?


Great...