First listen to the Linn Climax ds

Claus

I guess to each his own however I would suggest that you return to the dealer when you are in a different mood and have another listen.

By complete coincidence I was at my dealer this past weekend listening to the exact same system (I "don't" think it is the same dealer as I am Stateside). The dealer already has a Klimax DS in house (already sold and warming up for the customer)(he also has an Akkurate DS) and had brought in a pair of demo 350A speakers from Linn (see my earlier thread of today) which a customer had requested. I have had the pleasure of sitting in on three different DS demos (the last one conducted by Mr. T himself) and have had the opportunity to also listen to the Akkurate DS as compared with the Klimax. Myself, and many of the other people who have passed through the shop, have been completely blown away by the Klimax DS - it is simply THAT good.

As for the complete Linn system which I listened to - the same as you Klimax DS/Klimax preamp/Artikulate 350A's (active) - let me say that I was just floored. I cannot get this system out of my mind. There is also something to say for its simplicity - the amplifiers are built into the speakers for active operation and the only thing one sees is two silver boxes (the DS and the preamp) and a single pair run of cables going to the speakers. As I look at my current system (not active) I see 6 boxes (not counting the SuperLine and Armageddon (total 8)) sitting on two separate stands. A bit different.

I have to admit that I am seriously lusting however my room is not big enough for such beasts - nor is my wallet. Have you ever heard the stand mount versions of the same speakers (320A) - I would really love to.

Best
Gregg

Linn Klimax DS is the best digital source I ever heard!

Has anyone done the AB with a CD555?

And does the Klimax DS work within a Naim system?

Kuma

A/B'd with a CDS3/XPS2 through a 552/300. Economically that is a fair comparison as a Klimax costs approximately the same as the above CD player (actually it costs less). Economically, as compared to a CD555, you are looking at $18K vs. $32K ... hmmmmm $32K for a player whose drive is no longer made (just spares inventoried at hq) and whose technology is on its way out. Similar to what I just went through with my new camcorder purchase....miniDV is finished and flash media is where its at.

Gregg

PS you should head over to Accent (even though it is a "trip") - they have the Akurate DS-Klimax DS - and a full bore system set up in the new room with the DS/Klimax preamp/and the crazy Artikulate floorstanders (which are driving me crazy)

Oh yes ... it DOES work with a Naim system. We pulled out the Klimax preamp and slotted a 552 in its place.

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
Oh yes ... it DOES work with a Naim system. We pulled out the Klimax preamp and slotted a 552 in its place.

I guess so long as you kept a Naim amp, no reason not to work. Or did the 552 drive the active Linn speakers?
Did those two source components have a similar presentation?

I would love to hear a properly set up current Linn active system.

I was never an early adopter. Spending 18k in a cutting-edge technology that still has a lot of room to improve seems to be a poor investment to me.

You know how a computer or cinema processor depreciate quicker than anything else I have seen because the turn over for the technology is higher. ( Perhaps Linn should come up with a leasing program: upgrade every 2 years )

A CD might be an old technology, but it's pretty much matured ( a sort of like a turntable ) in that every firm has probably explored many possibilities to improve the format limitation at this point.

Technology bits don't impress me much and no doubt that Linn's current execution should sound pretty decent. The trouble however, is that I don't trust Linn for a long-term support. ( look what they did to their older products they abandoned. )
I sure hate to end up with an *orphan product* quicker than normal.

It's possible that a server based music might better *my* favourite CD players in performance in the future but as an end user, a long-term product support from the company, especially for a digital equipment, is a pretty important for me.

I'm betting, Naim will continue to service their kit so long as the company is in existence and necessary parts are available.

Kuma

The 552 was slotted in to drive the active Linn speakers (6 amps per speaker?).

Yes - the 552 was better HOWEVER if I was making a new purchase than NO WAY would I spend +30K for a 552 when the Klimax preamp at $12K had absolutely no problem at all. I even commented - for the price of the 552 one could buy the Klimax preamp AND the Klimax DS

Early adopter? No way - this type of playback has been around for quite a while. Early adopter - the results are already here - just take a listen. The ripped files ARE better - it is a fact!

Long term support - I don't know however they are still supporting your LP12 are they not? Since 1973?

Depreciation? Most likely similar to any hifi components when they walk out the door. Why do you consider this product the akin to a "computer or cinema processor" - its a hifi box.

Leasing program? Maybe those who bought an expensive Naim DVD player would have liked that one - once their DVD's disappear and they are downloading movies via Apple TV and Netflix.

Its a brave new world - just ask my kids - they consume all of their music via iTunes. I am not happy about it (MP3) however at least they are listening to the music

Gregg

Gregg,

So, the Klimax DS sounds like a Naim system?

Re: early adopters.
It's been around, sure. I've tried that consumer grade Roku and SB2 4 years ago.
But it's relatively recent development that more and more specialty companies started to offer *their* solution.

quote:

I don't know however they are still supporting your LP12 are they not? Since 1973?

An LP12 is still in production.
An average life of digital equipment is a lot shorter. A several years ago, Linn decided not to service many of their discontinued products.
Not very comforting for a 18K digital product.
Those *hifi boxes* including uber CD players are like computer.I would bet that one of those server boxes would need rebooting over time. ( hell, we do that now with CD players )

When I tried a Kontrol with my amps it was on par with my Krell pre and 282/SC. And a 252 stood out the best out of all. They all had a different flavour, tho.
I'm pretty sure if I was working with a Linn amp, a Linn preamp might have been okey.
A 552 had a lot of disadvantage driving those Linn amps as, output impedance on those preamps were pretty far apart. (IIRC, Kontrol's impedance was 600 ohms, where as 552's was less than 2 ohms or something ridiculously low )
No doubt Linn's internal amps were optimised for high impedance inputs.
So, for the money, sure, 30k is better spent if one buys a Linn system providing it sounds like a Naim system. A 552 is a poor value because you are not getting the best out of it.

But you know, it's kinda silly talking *economy* at either 18k or 30k. I understand the system simplicity. A Naim active has just too many damn boxes.

Anyways, I will check out their system. It'll be interesting. Hopefully with kumamix.

p.s. I still can't forget the day when I asked the head dude at the Linn USA about the Briks, he didn't know what they were. That's like folks at NANA not remembering the SBL. Very comforting. NOT.

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:Perhaps Linn should come up with a leasing program: upgrade every 2 years

As a matter of fact, the DS range got a SW upgrade last week.
Sound quality including musicality was improved substantially

And your concern regarding long term support, its nothing to support really; no lasers or other moving parts in them.
We all know what need replacement in normal CDplayers do we?

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
Gregg,

So, the Klimax DS sounds like a Naim system?

No - I did not say that. It does sound quite good though


"And your concern regarding long term support, its nothing to support really; no lasers or other moving parts in them.
We all know what need replacement in normal CDplayers do we?"

Very true!
I had also read about the software upgrade - it improved the sound?
Time to fasten the seatbelts!


Gregg

I realise SSD is more robust but I am not naive enough to believe they never fail.

quote:

As a matter of fact, the DS range got a SW upgrade last week.Sound quality including musicality was improved substantially

See what I mean?
It'll get even better over time.

Gregg,

Would you switch from Naim to Linn if you were so convinced that ripped files are so much better?

I am trying to get back in this discussion again. I do not really doubt that a ripped cd is better on a ds, and for sure on the Climax DS! The guy from Scotland explained it in a nontechnical simple way, saying that the way the hd systems work the system is sure to transmit all available data from the hd to the ds, because of the technology that is using several reads until all data can be sent to the ds without errors. In a cd player the system gets one chance and afterwoods you can only do a certain amount of un the fly error correction.

And as I wrote the system even as I perceived it yesterday had lots of detail and control and a lot of base. But it seems as though Linn overall these days are going for allmost classical hifi ideas, control in the base, and many details. As usual though not much room around the instruments and I will say a very closed trebble!
And on all the numbers we listened to yesterday it was the base that was the basis for the rest. And much better than on my own Naim system, I am still thinking that maybe a 250 insted of my current 200 for the base on the Audiovectors will make the system come closer. But what about all the trebble information that the Linn system has chosen to well mask or ignore, even in a system with a dedicated supertweater, strange choice made hear, but not an accident. I talked to one of the people in the store, and told them that I did not really find the system involving, and that it in my ears lacked involvement. Of course he did disagree and said that he thought that this is the way music ought tto be reproduced. And this is a personal choice, but I must say that Linn over the last 10 years have seriously changed there idea on what is important when reproducing music.
On the other hand they have a current highly regarded ds system, and one important nice thing here all there DS products can stream internet radio, but I am really hoping that we will hear another presentation when the Naim servers will be available.

And the idea with all active speakers really is nice, Getting rid of 4 boxes could be really nice, even though I do not see them, and I hhave no use for the space between the speakers for other things, and nnobody else who complains about all the uggly boxes the idea still is really fascinating!

I hope to bring a few of my own cds to the shop maybe friday and have another listen if they have the time.
And maybe who knows just for fun see if my dealer has a 250 just to listen to what it can do to get more base in my system when funds permit this could be the next upgrade here.

The Linn DS system is a great idea - technically.

But the ultimate test of anything that plays music, whether it be a real performer on an instrument, vinyl, CD or data is:

DOES IT MAKE MUSIC INTERESTING?

If it DOES NOT, then you can argue and justify till the cows come home, and it won't make a jot of difference.

I, personally, think the Linn sound is like musical paint drying, and would therefore gladly sell a top notch Linn DS system, keep a wad of cash, and buy a much cheaper Naim system.

Perhaps some of us here will learn that money spent and technical brilliance perceived are poor measurements to use in the pursuit of a musical playback system...

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
Kuma

$32K for a player whose drive is no longer made (just spares inventoried at hq) and whose technology is on its way out.

Gregg, do you mean this Mech.

CDpro2


Dean..

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:

Perhaps some of us here will learn that money spent and technical brilliance perceived are poor measurements to use in the pursuit of a musical playback system...

Sincerely, the 500 series and the Supernait.


PS - Is this not a "Distributed Audio" thread?

quote:

Originally posted by Whizzkid:

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
Kuma

$32K for a player whose drive is no longer made (just spares inventoried at hq) and whose technology is on its way out.

Gregg, do you mean this Mech.

CDpro2
Dean..

Yes - I guess so - is that what costs $369 on line and resides in a $32,000 CD player?

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:

Gregg,

Would you switch from Naim to Linn if you were so convinced that ripped files are so much better?

It was not just the ripped files which sounded good it was the entire system. Unfortunately I do not have a spare $52,000 lying around for the speakers and integrated amplifiers.

I guess however that they might be considered a bargain in some parts - my last calculation had a pair of DBL's costing $34K + 3 X 300 amps at $36K - oh - and I forgot the SNAXO and SuperCap at $9K .. so ... let me see ..... hmmm $79,000 for active DBL's . Well - maybe those Linn speakers are not that expensive after all - I might just have to get me a pair!

Gregg

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
Yes - I guess so - is that what costs $369 on line and resides in a $32,000 CD player?

Is THAT how much the Zanden costs?

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:I had also read about the software upgrade - it improved the sound?
Time to fasten the seatbelts!

Not so strange really.
Linn Unidisk was upgraded many times and after most (not all), the sound was enhanced.
If you tune (hehe) the SW so the player can handle the D/A conversion better, or do it with less errors, less gitter - whatever -
sound going to be improved....

quote:

Originally posted by glevethan:
Unfortunately I do not have a spare $52,000 lying around for the speakers and integrated amplifiers.

If you sell your existing Naim kit, it'll cost less than 52k.

quote:

I guess however that they might be considered a bargain in some parts - my last calculation had a pair of DBL's costing $34K + 3 X 300 amps at $36K - oh - and I forgot the SNAXO and SuperCap at $9K .. so ... let me see ..... hmmm $79,000 for active DBL's . Well - maybe those Linn speakers are not that expensive after all - I might just have to get me a pair!

A value scale goes slide up and down depending on what a listener fancy.
I've heard a costlier system than what you mentioned above and some of them really didn't do it for me even if I had means or space to do it.

If you like the presentation of a Linn system better, maybe you've got yourself a wrong system. If so, it will be a nice savings.

re: Transport raw cost
There aren't many producers who can develop their own. Esoteric/Teac/Panasonic has a deep pocket to come up with one but then their house sound is not my cup of tea.
I think what counts is what you do with it. You'll find cheap drive units in many of the high-end players but they are highly modified or tweaked which takes many hours of R&D which needs to be figured in to the final retail pricing.

Anyways, a discussion of value seems a bit out of topic in this thread and perhaps it should be moved to the PC Room.
It's about the sonic merit of Linn DS and soon enough someone should be able to compare to Naim's own and make up what's worth it for a listener.

Yesterday I went back to have another listen to the top Linn system I described in the first post. I heard the same yesterday, lots of base, lots of details, but no drive a very detailed and borring system, with a presentation wthat tends to override differences in the records. I took some of my own cds and we ripped Leonard Cohen The Future. Track 6 Democracy is a song that on my Naim system where the lyrics suggests a dynamic not a dull presentation, and I am sure that Cohen and the producer of the cd would prefer the Naim way of playing the track much more musical!

Of course streamers or the way to go but they are not just better because of improved technology, I just really wonder why all hifi reviews have been so wilde about all these streamers from the cheapest squeesebox to a DS Climax.

Even at the highest level of replay, each new medium has brought gains in Hifi, but not always in the visceral sense of real music making.

The LP was a serious step back in musical communication compared to 78 recordings. Electrical Amplification did nothing to enhance this direct sense of communication, and the analogue tape recorder introduced a barrier in this direct sense of things which recording would wait for the digital revolution to almost rectify.

I post here a Youtube of a great singer, the Danish tenor Aksel Schiøtz, singing "Ev'ry Valley," from Handel's Messiah in a very simply recorded film of an old 78 disc being replayed on a really fine HMV acoustic gramophone. The sense of communication at a musical level is priceless! Of course the actual sound is only partly accurate, but it is spine tingling, and that is something missing from so much of what is modern Hifi.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMM6awWypAM&feature=related

It gives pause for thought on "musicality in replay" if also leaving no doubt about the fact that Hifi was not part of the priority in those days!

George

I listened to the same Linn system at Accent this weekend. The bloated bass overtook everything else and in my opinion the system as a whole was not engaging or fun.

Just for fun we did a short A/B of the Linn system v. KlimaxDS + Klimax Kontrol + Naim250 amp + Allae. The results were interesting -- the Linn system had a much better sense of scale and presented vocals more accurately (it's a real full-range system, mind you). The flawed hybrid system was WAAAYYY more musically engaging, direct, and immediate, and had much better PRAT. And that's with the 250. Just imagine the same combination with 300 or even 500, and then 252 ... and .... I think you get the picture.

My point is simple - to each his own - and it's very difficult to compare systems based on cost alone (that is David's point, by the way). After the A/B session there was no doubt in the room that the Naim/Linn combo was lacking in the midrange and low-end and that it DOES deteriorate from the musical message. But I think it is fair to say that we were also a bit disappointed by the Linn system lack of immediacy and transparency -- that, I believe, stems from using much lesser quality amps than even the 250. Digital amps are simply not there yet and all you need is one 250 to show that.

I do agree that the DS is a very special product, if a little too expensive at this time.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bbb111:
I listened to the same Linn system at Accent this weekend. The bloated bass overtook everything else and in my opinion the system as a whole was not engaging or fun.

Just for fun we did a short A/B of the Linn system v. KlimaxDS + Klimax Kontrol + Naim250 amp + Allae. The results were interesting -- the Linn system had a much better sense of scale and presented vocals more accurately (it's a real full-range system, mind you). The flawed hybrid system was WAAAYYY more musically engaging, direct, and immediate, and had much better PRAT. And that's with the 250. Just imagine the same combination with 300 or even 500, and then 252 ... and .... I think you get the picture.

My point is simple - to each his own - and it's very difficult to compare systems based on cost alone (that is David's point, by the way). After the A/B session there was no doubt in the room that the Naim/Linn combo was lacking in the midrange and low-end and that it DOES deteriorate from the musical message. But I think it is fair to say that we were also a bit disappointed by the Linn system lack of immediacy and transparency -- that, I believe, stems from using much lesser quality amps than even the 250. Digital amps are simply not there yet and all you need is one 250 to show that.

I stilll think that the main problem with the new Linn systems is the presentation, it is obvious that the music is made more borring than it has to be, but with a lot of control and base! My local Naim and Linn dealers 2 different shops would never try to mix systems, a shame since I would love to here one of the DS in a Naim system actually it would be fun to get a sneaky on my own Naim system with my active audiovectors, but not before I find a way to control the DS.
product,

Something is not right with the Linn system - I think their amps are not up to it. Their Akurate 242 speaker is actually quite good and we know the DS and Klimax Kontrol are great so it must be the amps.

I once a/b a Naim 250 v. Linn's 2250 -- it wasn't pretty.