The Well Tempered Klavier

Well, Doug, I take my cap off to you and shall bow to your far greater experience of how a piano works: I can't even play a note on one.

But I won't yield to you in my admiration for Maurizio Pollini. He is, by some distance, the best pianist that we currently have and I just know that his recording will be the best since Sviatoslav Richter's.

With no disrespect to Ms Hewitt, she's playing in a different league, in every sense of the word.

Graham

But I do wish that those CDs would come soon.

Florestan,

I didn't know Hewitt has a Bach DVD. I will get that as soon as I can lay my hands on it.

Your tuner friend's reaction to the Hewitt recordings of the WTC is most curious. I think the recording engineers at Hyperion set a high water mark for clarity and voicing in Hewitt's new set of WTC. My wife feels the same way.

I guess each person has to listen for themselves.

Florestan,

There are a few things I would like to discuss.

About the recording. I have heard Fazioli Grands at national conventions for piano tuners twice. They were in perfect tune, voicing and regulation. All the tuners I got to know were impressed. It is a unique sound, with a transparency to the octaves that was new to me. I didn't hear that sound on the Steinway at the same convention. I think it quite distinctive.

When I listen to the Hewitt, I hear that Fazioli sound. With a very finely nuanced attack, superb dynamics to the smallest increment, and luminous overtones.

I think it a very fine recording.

I don't want to spoil the Pollini for you, but I guess our takes on it will be quite different anyway.

I can't wait to read what you write about the Pollini.

One final note.

Because of her unerring capacity to illuminate the lyrical and melodic in Bach, I find Hewitt's logic irresistible, and I can not turn my face away from hers :-)

Hi Mike,
I listened to the complete WTC from Hewitt today. You will never hear any argument from me where I don't agree with you how valuable this recording is. Angela Hewitt is probably one of the most experienced performing artists today with a specialty in the keyboard music of Bach and certainly in the complete WTC. Repeated listens over time really demonstrate how good she is.

I think you are always keen on learning so yes, I would recommend that you indeed do get the Hewitt DVD. It is called "Bach Performance on the Piano." It isn't for everyone but if you have an interest in learning just some aspects that go into learning these pieces it is very informative and interesting. My only beef was that I wanted her to go into even more detail and not move along to fast. In the time alloted to her she does a good job of taking a cursory look at some main points of interest.

I should explain why I shouldn't probably comment about the sound of piano recordings - period. I am a pianist and so I have had a lifelong passion in trying to duplicate what in my "minds ear" is what I consider to be a benchmark or ideal sound. I play something on my piano and then go and throw a piano CD on and I mostly am disappointed because the recording doesn't come close enough to duplicate the real thing. Geoff can attest to this but this was the main driving force behind my crazy, obsessed interest in Naim and the drive to the holy grail. It is a curse though for me because I am very hard to please in this area. I still feel that a very good piano recording is rare and hard to find. Maybe it doesn't exist for me. Maybe I'm alone on this one? I am much easier to please with voice, strings or virtually anything else out there and rarely complain here. Typically, my only constraint is whether the result is beautiful and does it reflect what I would hear (realistically) in the real world. I am mostly always impressed with the other genres of recorded music.

quote:

When I listen to the Hewitt, I hear that Fazioli sound. With a very finely nuanced attack, superb dynamics to the smallest increment, and luminous overtones.

Hearing the Fazioli sound is probably the first big shock to my ear. Not that it is a bad thing but it is just that it is different. My ear is very attuned to the Hamburg Steinway. Their are too many things that could be said in comparing these two but I'll limit myself to a few only.

"Superb dynamics to the smallest increment" I agree with. But to my ear, the Fazioli sound is more centered (maybe what you refer to as transparent?) and has a very rapid falloff. Maybe this makes sense in playing Bach? In general, it sounds wooden or muted. It works very well in the softer sections but not so well in the louder sections? Typically, a Steinway for me has more interesting overtones and of course this means the tone hangs around slightly longer. It is this unpredictable mingling of the sound that works for me. Actually, it is the lower registers of a Steinway that provide that most joy to me. It is that characteristic "growl" (which you won't really hear in Bach as he usually doesn't venture to far to the extents of the keyboard in either direction.)

One of the difficulties with pianos is that if you hear one that is not properly serviced often it is easy to jump to the conclusion that it is the brand that is at fault. Usually the brand though has certain characteristics that define it. Just like a BMW drives differently than a Toyota. But within the characteristics that are attributed to a patent design a piano technician can make or break a piano. Neglect and age will also render a piano technicians job as futile unless they can spend extra time and have the dollars to work the problems out over an extended time period. And every artist and every technician of course has their own idea of what they want.

My point in the previous post was really about realizing that the live world and the recorded world are very dissimilar. What was unique was that this person spent three days with Angela Hewitt trying to turn a poorly serviced, older Fazioli, into something Angela was happy with. So I believe he has a good understanding of what she wanted and he heard how she played live in concert and rehearsals. I only intuitively felt this but he has the experience to confirm this. For piano anyway, I still feel what the artist/audience hears still doesn't always translate through on the recordings. I'm positive that had I been able to hear Hewitt during the recording or on one of her WTC concerts that all my reservations about Fazioli would have disappeared.

I'm far to tired tonight and am likely not making sense anymore so I'll stop here tonight.

Regards,
Doug

Florestan,

I ordered the Hewitt DVD and it has already shipped.

I am keen to hear your response to Pollini.

Mike Eschman

Some revisions on my impressions on Hewitt and Pollini :

Last night I listened to the first twelve preludes and fugues in Book 1 again, in both sets.

I take back what I said about rhythm. What Hewitt does with rhythm is more successful in illuminating the themes than what Pollini does.

Hewitt comes across as the better prepared performer on all counts. She really brings this music to life.

I very much wanted to fall in love with the Pollini. His late Beethoven sonatas have been my favorite music of all music for a long time.

Pollini's WTC is inspiring some dark thoughts that I hope will fade with time. Some performers, like Horowitz, only improve with old age, to a stunning degree. Other performers are not so lucky. Some few decades seperate Pollini's late Beethoven sonatas from his WTC. It makes you wonder.

On the face of it, I want to believe it's a simple case of inadequate preparation. I think it is possible Pollini simply did not invest sufficient time to the WTC to fall in love with it, and bring the sort of fire and insight to the WTC that only true love can bring.

I sincerely hope it's nothing more than that.

I want to clarify my thoughts on rhythm.

The way Hewitt meters her ornaments is so much more appropriate to Bach than Pollini.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

Has anyone else gotten hold of the Pollini WTC?

I am anxious for someone else to prove me wrong.

A post from someone lurking on this thread for quite some time.

I've greatly enjoyed this thread as it has evolved - hooked by how much I enjoy Hewitt's Goldberg variations, I was delighted by the prospect of more hours of that magic and pressed the Amazon 'buy-with-one-click' button with gusto.

Now, I am a classical neophyte, with zero knowledge of what a key, a minor third or any other mystical code is. Much of the preceding discussion of Steinway vs Fazioli is not something I can engage actively with but enjoy reading. However when I come to select which CD to play of an evening, Hewitt's CDs have a strong attraction on my fingers. She, for me, in my uneducated ignorance, brings Bach to life.

To be honest Bach for me is an enigma. One the one hand it is WONDERFUL almost hypnotic, but if one tries to understand it, it is almost overwhelming - maybe as I don't have the knowledge/education to categorize, or encapsulate it. I can happily listen and enjoy for an hour, but in the sense of a happy, mindless goldfish - 'oh isn't that another good bit'. Could I hum or whistle a bit of Bach? apart from Toccata & fugue I'm not sure I could.

Anyhow the Pollini twist has been of great interest as there seems to be universal agreement as to the greatness of his late Beethoven sonatas and I recently was most taken by a live performance of these by a Mozart favorite of mine, Mitsuko Uchida in Perth. (The real, cold, Perth , not the warm, soft, Perth,Australia ). So I must avail myself of a copy of the Pollini Beethoven sonatas and see what I've been missing.

So there is my ha'penth worth, if only to encourage the musically literate on this forum that, despite what may seem like a relative silence - we are watching you.

Doo-doo as they say on Jaws :-)

cheers

Ian

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Has anyone else gotten hold of the Pollini WTC?

I am anxious for someone else to prove me wrong.

Mike I am afraid it won't be me I am like you very happy with Hewitt ( and of course Walcha) and I am watching the pennies these days. I have quite a lot of fairly recently accquired piano music to revisist aswell as the WTC and that keeps me smiling.

The ones I am talking about:

Ito Iema - The Goldbergs - Steinway

Jennifer Linn - Chopin Sonata No 3 + a polonaise, scherzo and Ballade - Yamaha

Gergely Boganyi - Chopin complete Nocturnes - Fazioli

Horowitz in Hamburg - The Last Concert (June 1987) playing his favorite works including Mozart's Sonata in B flat , Schumann's Scenes from Childhood and shorter works from Liszt, Chopin, Schubert and Moszkowski - Steinway

Murray Perahia - Bach Partitas 2,3 & 4 - Steinway??

Angela Hewitt - Bach Keyboard Concertos 1 & 7, Brandeburg 5 & the Triple Concerto in A minor - Fazioli

Geoff

I feel the Piano is one of the most difficult to capture tomally in a recording across its full frequency range, In particular the high octaves can easily become 'plinky'.

Then we have the second challenge to find a speaker that can portray the sound unique to the hammer process and again not loose it a bit in the high octaves.

I reckon I have a pretty good setup so I am tempted to do some critical listening to tone, and rise and fall, and volume, using the recordings mentioned in the last post. This could be an interesting attempt since there are multiple Faziolis and Steinways and a Yamaha thrown in, though of course they will all have a different recording ambiance.

We will see

Geoff

Ian nice post.

I am in the same group as you. I bought the Hewitt after reading a review recommendation and look what it has brought forth. Very enjoyable both to listen to and to 'talk' about here.

I work the same as you. I don't try to understand Bach deeply I just know he pulls me in. There is nobody else quite like him, though I get the same connection with Vivaldi.

Interestingly Bach is complex but so accessible that I found it easiest to enjoy Bach as I made my first steps from Jazz into classical. Beethoven, Mozart and others are still harder for me to connect with.

regards
geoff

Now I can't claim to have read all this thread or even understood the bits I have but I was lucky enough to see Angela Hewitt in the National Art Gallery in Dublin on her Well tempered Clavier tour.

I was enraptured, the music and the sound of the music was amazing.

The next day I listened to the original Hyperion cds I have and nearly cried.

What I was listening to was in comparison the visual equivalent of the Mona Lisa viewed on VGA mobile phone.

Luckily before I threw out my Naim kit I listened to the Goldberg variations and saw that the recording had something to do with the anaemic presentation.


is there a consensus as to the sound quality of the 2008 recording?



SJB

I think Hewitt's 2008 recording of the WTC is the best piano recording we own, and so does my wife, who has tuned for professionals for about 35 years.

It is a sweet, clear voicing with excellent dynamics and micro-dynamics, and breath-taking articulation. The piano is a 10'8" Fazioli Grand in perfect tune, regulation and voicing.

In short, a stunning recording.

Others opinion may vary.

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:
Beethoven ... and others are still harder for me to connect with.

regards
geoff

Geoff, Pollini's recording of Beethoven's last three piano sonatas, opus 109, 110 and 111 is a touchstone and one of the greatest pleasures open to listeners of classical music.

Just listen to the melodies, and everything else will take care of itself.

It is the only thing I can think of at the moment that would compare nicely with the WTC.

I hope you give it a try :-)

The Hewitt DVD came today. It contains an illustrated master class, and a live performance.

We watched the first three chapters; about an hour's worth. That's about all we could take in one sitting. Very informative and thought provoking.

I would recommend this very much to anyone who would like to understand more about Bach, and about the piano, without learning to read music, or to take lessons on an instrument.

Will report again at the end of the weekend.

quote:

Murray Perahia - Bach Partitas 2,3 & 4 - Steinway??

(OK, I'll take the bait ). Geoff, I'll clarify the "??" for you... Murray Perahia ---> plays a Hamburg Steinway. (I am clearly distinguishing this piano from a New York Steinway. Same company in name but the pianos coming from Hamburg are slightly different in certain ways from their New York counterparts. You can actually even see the difference without even hearing a note if you know what to look for. In general, you can hear the differences as well and this stems from a difference in philosophy between Europe and North America). For what it is worth, Horowitz I believe played/owned New York Steinways that were really worked on/doctored to meet his special desires.

By the way Goeff, if you enjoyed the Partitas 2, 3, & 4, I urge you to get the other half just released (1, 5, & 6) at some point! I think these two recordings are very fine in interpretation and sound quality.

Mike, if you ever get a chance to sample either or both of these please do. Nothing can ever be perfect but I think it would be an interesting comparison. I'd really like to know if I've lost my mind or if you and your wife hear the differences too. Don't forget, everyone has different ears, different equipment, different rooms and different expectations so that might explain some of our differences in opinions on this. To be fair and in referring back to my piano technician I should clarify that I only played about 1 minute of the first Prelude from Book 1 and then I put about 1 minute on from Perahia's latest (Partita 1). Besides the differences in tonal quality and character he did say that their was a slight problem with the F in the Perahia recording but otherwise the Perahia recording was in a different league (warm, bell like and velvety sound).

I do have most of Pollini's recordings but for some strange reason I don't have the last three Beethoven piano sonatas. When my budget recovers soon I hope to get this.

Regards,
Doug

Sorry to sidetrack this Bach thread just one more time, but... Anyone wanting to get Pollini's late Beethoven should really try to stretch to the 2CD set, which has an astonishing reading of the 'Hammerklavier' as well as the lovely Op101. Pollini's 'Hammerklavier' is the only recording that I've heard where the pianism transcends the technical difficulty of playing the piece. I've seen it criticised for this: some think that you should be able to hear that the pianist is at the very limit of his/her ability and that the effort is somehow part of the aural experince. I don't agree but, for those who do, stick to poor old Brendel.

Back to WTK (!). I suspect that my Pollini set is a victim of those suicidal idiots currently not working for the Royal Mail, so the wait goes on.

Best regards G

Ok Pollini's 2 CD Beethoven set has also joined the Royal Mail queue for delivery. Let's see if this universal acclaim is universal. :-)

Ian

quote:

I don't have the last three Beethoven piano sonatas

Correction: Looking for my Hammerklavier copy this morning (thanks Graham for the remind!), it turns I do have Op 111 on the same recording. Listening to it right now and it is quick something. Pollini recordings from the 70's especially are all top rank it seems. Now to get the Opps. 109, 110 I guess I have to buy the Late Sonata recording.

Doug

I am enjoying the Hewitt Master class DVD very much. Her comments on dotted rhythms, rubato and dynamics particularly hit the mark, and explain a lot about her interpertation of the WTC.

It will probably take into the weekend to finish her lectures. A lot of information with no foot dragging, it takes your full attention to follow these.

quote:

What I was listening to was in comparison the visual equivalent of the Mona Lisa viewed on VGA mobile phone.

Luckily before I threw out my Naim kit I listened to the Goldberg variations and saw that the recording had something to do with the anaemic presentation.


is there a consensus as to the sound quality of the 2008 recording?

Upgrade?

tut tut Jeremy

Mike / Florestan.. Thanks for the tip on the Pollini. It is on order. I will have to save up for the other Partitas.

Florestan thanks for the detailed info on the Steinway's

regards
Geoff

Florestan, have you gotten your Pollini WTC yet?

Mike, I'm patiently waiting. It was ordered with a few other items and the shipment is likely being held until all the items are available. (I'm too cheap to pay extra for priority shipping). So it looks like I'm waiting another 1-2 weeks