The Well Tempered Klavier

More info on temperaments from my wife :

Hundreds of different well temperaments co-existed, until in 1913 a tuning guide was published that established equal temperament tuning.

So Equal Temperament is a 20th century development.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=...+goldbergs&x=13&y=17

Bring the Walcha set up available [second down on the list] in the UK.

ARB from George

Thanks George. It's too rich for my blood.

There is a four story used record shop downtown. I am going Sunday morning to see if I can get LPs of Walcha. She was very well-regarded locally in the sixties and seventies, so I expect they may have some.

I think most of the records come from estate sales. Lots of people who were in their fifties in the 70s are dying off right about now. They have been falling like flies since Katrina. I will listen to the records and pay for them, so I think it's OK.

You say you are the monastery, but I think more Odysseus, as you are sending me into the French Quarter on a payday weekend in search of Bach. I think we will have a day you would have enjoyed. Bars and restaurants will be complicit.

So we will get buzzed, fed and find some new records :-)

I had to add this, the daughter and her intended arrive later Sunday. They are in for a week of wedding planning.

We go to pick them up after the Bach adventure.

I hope to be at my best when we meet them :-)

Tonight we are doing Hewitt with stuffed crabs, macaroni and cheese and a creole tomato salad (end of season). They fixed it up for me at the local grocery.

I feel like a rock star ...

Hey nan...what goes around comes around.

After Katrina you've earned it.

Let me know how the Bach search goes by e-mail if you like. It's in my profile

Regards
Geoff

Here's another musical consideration for the WTC.

While it is true that clarity of fugue voices should be greater on a harpsichord than on a piano, the same is not true on suspensions. On suspensions the sustain of the piano gives a great advantage to the piano.

The WTC is chock full of suspensions. They are full of drama and suspense like a wall socket is full of electricity.

So different elements of the music come out in their glory for different keyboards.

Not surprising, since clavier simply means keyboard, and not a particular instrument.

It should not be forgotten that Bach's favorite keyboard of all was the clavichord, which is a touch sensitive instrument like a piano.

Don't forget Bach was a genius.

Time to hear disk 3 of the Hewitt :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
Fingers crossed Murray Perahia will have a crack at it at some point!

Well, I know that he's a tremendously proficient pianist, but surely that would be beyond even him!

G

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
I'm amazed that no-one has mentioned Sviatoslav Richter in all of this. Probably the best pianist of the last Century (although Dinu Lipatti, had he lived, might have run him close) and a peerless interpreter of Bach, as well as so much else.

Angela Hewitt's recordings, from what I've heard, are nicely played and all that, but they're not in the same league as Richter's.

Graham

Graham..I am a novice at this and not familiar with Richter. Concerning the discussion here about playing at a continous rhythum as Walcha does vs for example Hewitt who introduces slight pauses at key points in the musical progression. Does Richter interpret in a similar fashion to Walcha?

quote:

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
Fingers crossed Murray Perahia will have a crack at it at some point!

Well, I know that he's a tremendously proficient pianist, but surely that would be beyond even him!

...

regards
geoff

You know what I meant!

Actually, he's been struggling with quite a serious hand injury for the last couple of years, so it might yet come to that!

Indeed!

I thought that he'd overcome the hand problem. It would be a great shame if it were to recur.

Graham

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Indeed!

I thought that he'd overcome the hand problem. It would be a great shame if it were to recur.

Graham

Better is he? Great news if yes, he sounds fantastic these days, as I say, to my ears easily the Bach pianist of our time. Aimard's recording of Die Kunst der Fuge for DG blew me away though, so hopefully we shall hear more from him in this repertoire, he's definitely 'got it'.

quote:

Originally posted by Geoff P:

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
I'm amazed that no-one has mentioned Sviatoslav Richter in all of this. Probably the best pianist of the last Century (although Dinu Lipatti, had he lived, might have run him close) and a peerless interpreter of Bach, as well as so much else.

Graham..I am a novice at this and not familiar with Richter. Concerning the discussion here about playing at a continous rhythum as Walcha does vs for example Hewitt who introduces slight pauses at key points in the musical progression. Does Richter interpret in a similar fashion to Walcha?

regards
geoff

Geoff, the problem here is that I don't know Walcha's Bach, so I can't compare him with Richter for you.

Taking a complete stab in the dark, I'd say No. Richter sounded like no-one else. I have six of the WTK preludes and fugues in a DGG 2CD 'in memoriam' set, sadly no longer available. I also have the entire two Books on a 4CD RCA set which I bought in Paris some years ago. I don't know if it is still available.

Anyway, the really fantastic news is that DGG have recently released a 9CD set, including all the solo recordings that Richter made for the label in the 1950s and 1960s. Decent, not hi-fi sound, but incandescent performances. It may seem extreme to buy nine CDs just to get a handful of WTK pieces, but every single piece over the set (ranging from Bach to Schumann to Prokofiev, and much else besides) is worth listening to, much of it is definitive. And available for under £40 here - probably less round your way.

As if that were not cause enough to rejoice, DGG are just releasing a companion box, comprising Richter's concerto recordings. And Philips and Decca are doing likewise.

The Pianist of the (20th) Century indeed.

Graham

Thanks for the info Graham. I had a look and Amazon is the best bet. Just need to work out if I can afford it...

Geoff

quote:

The Buy-with-1-click deed has been done and I await with interest what will arrive.

Ian

Ian ....I assume it has arrived perhaps?...had a chance to listen yet?

Geoff

Nope -I ordered from Caimen in the US, who are not the fastest for delivery BUT IME do have good service if anything goes wrong - hence they get my repeat business.

Hopefully Monday ...

Ian

Just a passing thought.

One of the greatest difficulties in selecting a favored performer is in your ability to accept the performer's premise.
Assumptions underlie every interpretive difference. If the listener does not accept those assumptions, then the experience will not be whole.

Something is missing.

So what determines what you will accept?

Two things.

1-How you hear music on first blush.

2-What you have heard before.

The first time you hear a piece is a very important decision.

For me right now, that is Hewitt & Bach WTC.

How to make that decision?

Every bit you learn of music's grammar, the more your "listen" becomes a conversation, where you are the patient listener. It is similar to learning to read books. If that idea is appealing, you already know what to do.

If it holds no interest, stop reading now.

But your ear is only half the equation. The pianist has to do something too.

Here's one of my assumptions :

For every successful pianist, there are good reasons to hold them in high regard, assuming an open mind.

What do these successful pianists hold in common?

In order to survive as a professional recording pianist, something about your performance must suggest something unique. If a performer is identical to a current successful pianist, he may have a concert circuit, and a position at a conservatory, and many talented students, but he will not attain the status of a Richter, Pollini, Aturo Benedetti Michelangeli or Hoffman, because that requires uniqueness.

That implies that the more open you become to a performer's interpretation, the more artists you will come to love.

Personally, I want that library to become a reflection of my own emotions and feelings.

For me, listening to a performance I comprehend, I am enjoying a story told with emotion stripped to it's bare essentials. No other considerations apply.

Musicians are a group that has a history well known to it's members. Every decision a reflection on all that has come before, with an eye towards some future.

Ignore the present at your peril :-)

And how do I feel about the Hewitt? She gets three full listens before I hear anyone else do this music. She's that good. But there is a lurking sentiment that suggests some interpretive decisions may have been made for technical reasons, not related to her internal reading of the music. I mean, "crap, I can't do it the way I wanted to."

But that may be my faulty ears, and not her playing.

Hope this was an interesting read. Hope to hear your thoughts. I like to read too.

Mike, an interesting, post, if I may say so, without (I hope) sounding in any way patronising. From my perspective, Angela Hewitt is a very fine pianist, but she will never hit the transcendental heights of Richter, Pollini (who's never recorded Bach, to my knowledge) or Michelangeli, amongst those you mention. I don't know Hoffman, but I'd add Emil Gilels and Friedrich Gulda to your list of super-greats.

And, to throw in one from left field, I'd plump for Ivan Moravec, but I do understand that others would rank him with the likes of the great Ms Hewitt.

Graham

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Mike, an interesting, post, if I may say so, without (I hope) sounding in any way patronising. From my perspective, Angela Hewitt is a very fine pianist, but she will never hit the transcendental heights of Richter, Pollini (who's never recorded Bach, to my knowledge) or Michelangeli, amongst those you mention. I don't know Hoffman, but I'd add Emil Gilels and Friedrich Gulda to your list of super-greats.

And, to throw in one from left field, I'd plump for Ivan Moravec, but I do understand that others would rank him with the likes of the great Ms Hewitt.

Graham

Thank you.

About Hewitt, she does so many things with beauty, I feel I owe it to her to give her a day in the sun, by giving her my full attention. So far, that has given much pleasure.

And if Pollini does a Bach disc, I have to hear it :-)

I've been listening to the Richter samples at Amazon, and I have not heard him break meter in places where Hewitt has. I have a lurking suspicion that breaking meter may be a concession to technical limitations, but do not know the music well enough to say so.

Everything in the available Richter samples at Amazon is perfect and faultless, so I don't see how it wouldn't deserve a listen.

I'll look for Ivan Moravec.

Mike

See my post to Geoff P above about Richter. If the very first Prelude from the WTK, recorded live by DGG on his legendary 'Italian Tour' in 1961, and available on the set I mentioned, doesn't cause you to gasp, raise the hairs on the back of your neck, and shed a silent tear, you ought to give up your (wholly admirable) attempt to learn to play the piano. That's what it did, and still does, to me. If ever a Martian visitor wanted to know what a human being was capable of in music, that would be the one piece that I'd play to it.

What you just won't credit is how GENTLE it sounds.

Incidentally, am I the only person here to have the four CDs of music taken from the WTK, recorded for the Japanese Polygram label, by the late John Lewis, the pianist of the Modern Jazz Quartet? Preludes played (mostly) straight, but with additional jazz players (and improvisation) on the Fugues? Sadly, and inexplicably, deleted long ago.

Graham

I went to the amazon UK site just now and keyed in Sviatoslav Richter and Bach. Much to my amazement, the first two hits were the RCA 4CD WTK set and the DGG 2CD 'In Memoriam' set that I mentioned above.

The 'In Memoriam' set, in particular, is genius throughout, but I'd still suggest that anyone new should plump for the 9CD set that I mentioned above.

Graham

quote:

Musicians are a group that has a history well known to it's members. Every decision a reflection on all that has come before, with an eye towards some future.

Ignore the present at your peril :-)

I agree with quite a lot of your thought process Mike.

It should be born in mind that every great musician goes thru' a student phase and those that show the most potential are most likely to be taken as a pupil by a virtuoso so the building blocks of greatness are passed on. This must give them a advantageous launching pad from which to evolve and if they have the personality become unique.

Of course tehcnique is only a starting point and the downside of being taught by a virtuoso is they will no doubt ram their opinons on interpretation into their students who must then break free from that to stand a chance of becoming a 'unique'.

quote:

I've been listening to the Richter samples at Amazon, and I have not heard him break meter in places where Hewitt has. I have a lurking suspicion that breaking meter may be a concession to technical limitations, but do not know the music well enough to say so.

Mike you are not the only one...George and I were chatting by the old internet phone, intially about Walcha and were marvelling at some of the very complex, fast and at times difficult playing that he makes nothing of but just sails on through without lagging because of he has superb technique. Without singling out Hewitt precisely, we started to postulate that players with lesser technique would have a tendency to slow down to be safe rather than maintaining drive and pushing themselves into making a hash of a particularly challenging note sequence.

I can understand nevertheless why you like Hewitt. I do too, she is very engaing.

regards
Geoff

I don't think Angela Hewitt has a 'lesser technique' - if she slows down it's because she thinks she ought to!

I think you'll find most if not all professional concert pianists on the circuit today have the WTC well within their technical means.

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
I don't think Angela Hewitt has a 'lesser technique' - if she slows down it's because she thinks she ought to!

I think you'll find most if not all professional concert pianists on the circuit today have the WTC well within their technical means.

I was very careful to explain that this music is new to me. On my first listen to the first 12 tracks on disk 1, in a fugue, she made a tempo variation I found jarring.

I have listened to the first 3 discs.

That one instance is the only place I was jarred into thinking outside her performance.

But I still have to say, all pianists are not created equal. Neither are all listeners, unfortunately for all of us :-)

And I think the WTC represent a formidable challenge. Six page fugues are nothing to approach casually. That's one reason not everybody does them.

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Mike


Incidentally, am I the only person here to have the four CDs of music taken from the WTK, recorded for the Japanese Polygram label, by the late John Lewis, the pianist of the Modern Jazz Quartet? Preludes played (mostly) straight, but with additional jazz players (and improvisation) on the Fugues? Sadly, and inexplicably, deleted long ago.

Graham

I do have a single disc Phillips label cd of John Lewis "JS Bach Preludes and Fugues from the Well-Tempered Clavier Book 1", at times accomponied by violin, viola, guitar and bass.

I have been fascinated by the musings on this thread. I enjoy the John Lewis disc from time to time but am in no position to comment further on this wonderful conversation you all are having.

Continue, please.

Jeff A