The Greatest C Major?

Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 20 November 2005

Dear Friends,

Schubert's Ninth was my first encounter with the Viennese Classics, and I have adored it for 35 years now. I was given my first LP of it for my tenth birthday, and that was the then new HMV recording of Barbiroli and the Halle Orchestra costing the procely sum of two pounds and a shilling! That was more than a premium CD now considering inflation!

In the School library we had Boult and the LPO on an old Pye mono LP, which was quite different to the my new LP, but I listened to both, not prefering either.

Over the years I have owned many recordings, and then next I got was Boult in 1934 with the BBC SO on HMV, which I taped off the radio when Boult died in 1984. It is splendid. After that I found Tennstedt with the BPO on EMI France on a brand new recording also in 1984, but this was not so fine. Far too heavy and strangely charmless. then came CDs and I got Boult's stereo HMV recording, which was disconcerting. There is a frightful edit right at the start of the main allegro in the first movement, and the effect is of a badly crashed gear on an old car. One good tug, a horrid bang and jolt, and we're off sitting back in our seeats slightly dazed! That went as did the Tennstedt. Then came what has been my favourite and just new released again now: Erich Kleiber live in Koln. [Now on Decca]. Then followed the fiery and splendid 1942 account in Berlin under Furtwangler, which I have some doubts about. It is a lop-sided view. Too much anger and not enough Viennese charm, but it is compelling in its way. Then I got the same performers from a DG studio recording from 1951 [?], which has the measure it it much better, but is less compelling, and indeed only stays because of the marvelous live performance of the Rosamunde Overture the makes up the programme.

Then came two more Furtwangler efforts and both splendid, and humaine. Berlin live in 1953, which is long breathed and patient, but never sags, and then something VERY special: VPO live in Stockholm is 1942 only a few weeks away from the War-time Birlin recording. A different place, and atmosphere. It is achingly beautiful, and so poigniant that the second movement has on occasion reduced me to tears. There is nobility and strength here and some phenomeneal playing in a reading that is as fast as Kleiber's.

Then I got the HMV Boult again last years, and played once, that went again, as the edit is obviously not repairable. Sad really as the old 78 set showed how fine Boults reading really is. The best of all in my view.

So this Saturday I found that the BBC, on its Legends Series had release a Boult Prom performance from 1969. Is it flawed? Yes, and badly, because the audience take ages to settle at the start and actually start applauding at the very begining of the final chord, but that tells its own tale. This is wonderful reading and a wonderful performance, which comes in tolerably fine sound, but most of all Boult keeps the balances so clear that inner detail is at least as audible as on any really fine studio recording. Much better than the Tennstedt in Berlin for example. This now finds poll position for me, but the other two I really love are the Stockholm (VPO) set under Furtwangler, and the marvelously luminous Koln set under Kleiber. I cannot recomend either the Boult (live BBC) or Kleiber sets too highly though I think the Furtwangler set is currently out of print (Tahra, France), which is a shame as it is uniquely splendid in the Scherzo and Trio, which fits right in with the Viennese playing style, and also there is some rather splendid, and out and out go for it, horn playing in the Allegro ma non troppo, proper, of the First movement. Surprisingly Boult is at least as flexible as Furtwangler over tempi in the First Movement, and both managed a splendid transition from the Introduction to the Allegro ma non troppo. Kleiber has another Ace up his sleeve here, as he takes the Andante Introduction at a strick and rather (too?) quick pulse that allows a completely seemless entry to the main First Subject, which is slightly slower than Boult or Furtwangler, and again retains this pulse right into the Second Subject group, where Boult and Furtwangler relax a little. What Kleiber does is about forty years before the period boys got their hands on the music, gives them a ground-plan for action! All of them have fire and charm in fine balance, but as a total conception I would put Boult at the head. I have known this for a long time though it is incredible, that ghastly edit in the EMI studio recording of Boult. The 78s, even though there is a side break at that exact moment, are actually better when assmbled in transfer, though only the live set really shows how marvelously Boult achieves this transition. It is like a great vista on emerging from the mists of the Introduction. A moment of Beethovenian power...

Tremendous, and dumbfoundingly beautiful, all of them, actually.

Sincerely, Fredrik
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by Tam
Well, personally, I'm rather a fan of the Solti/VPO reading though, to be honest, it's been an awfully long while since I listened to it.

I agree that the E Kleiber is a great reading.

Also worth a look is the very fine Mackerras/OAE version (the first recording of the 9th on period instruments), coupled with the 5th and a finished version of the 8th it's also worth a punt.

Don't think I've heard the Furtwangler, though I do have an 8th of his which is pretty good so I may look out for the 9th.


regards, Tam
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

I had forgoten about Solti and the VPO and it was one of my very first CDs! It is splendid, but ultimately lacked either the charm of say Joseph Kripps, another recording I want to get again, or Furtwangler in Stockholm, and it went, at the same time as Boult on EMI and Tennstedt. I am a dreadful disposer, as I referenced in the Refiner Thread a few days ago!

Kleiber is unique, but I wonder; Does Mackerras keeps the pulse steady throughout the First Movement in ths same way? If so I would be very interested to get it. I have heard this approach become fearfully pedestrain and plodding, the whole thing just sitting down and being miserable, in one live relay done like that, so I guess that Kleiber was sailing a dangerous course, which, with his innate musiciianship, he pilotes wonderfully. I guess Mackerras might well be equally wonderful?

Fredrik
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by Tam
It's a funny old world, my soft spot for the Solti is for similar reasons (it was one of my first classical cds too).

As to the precise details of Mackerras's reading, I'll have another listen and get back to you. I think, though, it's safe to say that one thing you could never accuse a Mackerras reading of is being dull.

regards, Tam
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

I'll take the chance! Is it Virgin? A lot OAE recordings were at one time. I don't need the number as I'll order it from my shop tomorrow, but it helps to know the label, sometimes as the Gramophone catalogue is not the quality tome it once was!

Thanks in advance from Fredrik
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by Tam
Yep it's on Virgin classics (a double cd on their 'veritas' label). No. 5618062 (if that's any help).

regards, Tam
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

If you want a fine recording of Furtwangler and the BPO playing the Great C Major there is a coupling on Tahra (France) of it with the Unfinished on CD No. Furt 1017.

Both are splendid performances, unique in their vision of the music, and the Rosamunde Overure I mentioned in the first post above is also from the same concert of the 15th September 1953, but I suspect long since deleted on DG.

Happy hunting, from Fredrik
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by Tam
I'll look out for that.

I already have a 1952 Furtwangler/BPO 8th which is part of the DG original masters Furtwangler set. The Rosamunde overture doesn't seem to have made it though Frown


regards, Tam
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by Tam
Interestingly, I'm just now playing the Furtwangler 8th (only the second time I've listened to it - this set is pretty new still), and I'm struck by how unlike the 8ths I'm used to hearing it is. Very enjoyable none the less, and it does have that certain furtwangler something. The only recording of his I can't get on with at all is the Beethoven 7th where he simply goes too slowly, the trouble with that is that I once heard Daniel Harding give a performance that so blew me away, almost anything else is disappointing by comparison.


regards, Tam
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

I can recomend one or two splendid Furtwangler performances of the Beethoven Seventh, which are anything but too slow! I doubt the the 1942 BPO set is to be had but both DG and Tahra have issued it and the Tahra transfer had the benefit of using the original Radio tape and not a Russian Radio copy tape! But the best one should still be available, on Orfeo Festspieldukumente Nr: C 293 921 B. Live at Salzburg on 30/8/1954.

It is absolutely splendid, and the slow movement is just the right, andante - walking pace - tempo! The first movement is typically a view involving a fair degree of flexibility, but not slow, and the Scherzo and Finale have to be listened to to be believed. They make young Kleiber sound staid!

More good hunting by the look of it! Fredrik
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by graham55
Tam, as you mentioned Schubert's Eighth, I must put in a word for Carlos Kleiber's VPO recording. Unmatched! (But Fred never agrees with me on favoured recordings!)

I have the Erich Kleiber, Boult and Solti recordings of Schubert's Ninth, and I'll have to play the Boult again soon to see if I spot the edit that so distresses Fred.

Fred, as a result of an earlier post from you, I searched for the Furtwaengler VPO Beethoven Seventh and Eighth on Orfeo. It's not easy to find, as I think that it may have been deleted recently, but find one (new) I did for some $22 (inc p&P), so it had better be pretty special when it arrives!

Graham
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Graham,

That Orfeo recording is worth more than what you paid! Deleted, and I have just been pushing it for Tam. I don't like recomending things out of the catalogue. Shame.

I have actually never encountered the young Kleiber performance of the Unfurnished (as we always used to call it!), but I bet it is grand. That was on Orfeo too wasn't it? I don't always disagree with you, though when we do differ it is always nice and polite, so the interest is always that much greater, I would think!! How boring it would be if everyone just agreed!

Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by Tam
I haven't heard the Kleiber jnr performance either.

As it happens, I think I have two Furtwangler 7ths on disc (on that DG original masters box and one my EMI cycle so perhaps I owe them another look). However, the only two on disc that really do it for me are the Keiber/VPO account and the Mackerras/RLPO, I wish Harding would record it (though it would probably not be the same as the concert in my memory which has probably taken on something of a rose tint).

regards, Tam
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

Let me promise you that the Salzburg performance is far finer than the two you mention. I have both, and I hardly refer to them! The Berlin set is better then the HMV studio in my view, but neither catches fire like the Salzburg. Looks like Graham thinks it is deleted though, so best move fast or maybe something else might be arranged, as the broadcast is by now twelve months out of copyright...

Fredrik
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by Tam
Okay, will have a look. If it's out of copywrite that bodes well, come on naxos historical....

regards, Tam
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by Tam
Fredrik,

Do you mean this one (it's hard to tell):

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000028B20/qid.../202-8510341-2584659

regards, Tam
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
That's it. Get it quick as supplies are apparently running low! Fred
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by graham55
Tam & Fred

I forgot to say, and I can't imagine how, that I also have the Furtwaengler/BPO DGG Schubert Ninth and, from memory, it's the best of the lot. But I haven't listened to any of these recently, so guess what I may be doing over the next few days........

I may be wrong about the Furtwaengler Beethoven disc being deleted, but it just wasn't easy to find. (Can't say yet whether it's worth the effort.)

C Kleiber's recording is available, though, in at least two couplings: with Schubert's Third (rather quirky, in my opinion) or, better, if you don't have the couplings, with Brahms' Fourth Symphony and a couple of Tristan extracts (an "in memoriam" issue with fascinating notes).

Graham
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by Tam
Now I'm really tempted. From memory the Kleiber Brahms 4 is meant to be a classic recording, as is the Tristan.....
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by graham55
Tam

Both the Schubert and Brahms will blow your mucking socks off and the Tristan taster will set you up to buy the most shatteringly beautiful recording of the opera that it's ever been my privilege to hear. Not even Furtwaengler comes close.

Graham
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by Tam
Actually, I nearly bough the Tristan when I was in HMV (they had it for under £20, sans libretto, which I have twice anyway).... I expect now you're going to tell me I was stupid to pass that up Winker However, I already have Solti and Furtwangler and am not really in a hurry for another.

regards, Tam
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by graham55
Tam

I really believe that C Kleiber's recording of Tristan is on a completely different level of achievement than just about any other piece of music recording that I've ever heard.

You'd have to buy it in its Originals format, which gives you -at last- one Act per disc. Then have a good meal, turn down the lights, open a good bottle of red wine and let the music flow over you. Poor old Wilhelm F sounds pedestrian by comparison, and the wash of sound that CK coaxes from the Dresden orchestra is utterly astonishing.

Graham
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by Tam
Okay. I could use a good evening's Wagner. I finally got round to watching Levine's Die Walkure on DVD at the weekend, he nearly sent me to sleep until the 3rd act when the acting was so comically bad I was in hysterics!

regards, Tam
Posted on: 21 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Ooops, I thought this was a Schubert Thread! Sorry, Fredrik
Posted on: 22 November 2005 by graham55
Apologies for the hijack, Fredrik, this can now revert to Schubert.

I assume that any self-respecting Schubert lover has Beecham's GROC CD of the Third, Fifth and Sixth Symphonies?

Graham
Posted on: 22 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
That Beecham set I do indeed have. In fact a rather old issue, and not the latest Great Recordings set either! It should be got by anyone who enjoys Schubert, the few cuts in the music notwithstanding...

All the best from Fredrik