The Greatest C Major?
Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 20 November 2005
Dear Friends,
Schubert's Ninth was my first encounter with the Viennese Classics, and I have adored it for 35 years now. I was given my first LP of it for my tenth birthday, and that was the then new HMV recording of Barbiroli and the Halle Orchestra costing the procely sum of two pounds and a shilling! That was more than a premium CD now considering inflation!
In the School library we had Boult and the LPO on an old Pye mono LP, which was quite different to the my new LP, but I listened to both, not prefering either.
Over the years I have owned many recordings, and then next I got was Boult in 1934 with the BBC SO on HMV, which I taped off the radio when Boult died in 1984. It is splendid. After that I found Tennstedt with the BPO on EMI France on a brand new recording also in 1984, but this was not so fine. Far too heavy and strangely charmless. then came CDs and I got Boult's stereo HMV recording, which was disconcerting. There is a frightful edit right at the start of the main allegro in the first movement, and the effect is of a badly crashed gear on an old car. One good tug, a horrid bang and jolt, and we're off sitting back in our seeats slightly dazed! That went as did the Tennstedt. Then came what has been my favourite and just new released again now: Erich Kleiber live in Koln. [Now on Decca]. Then followed the fiery and splendid 1942 account in Berlin under Furtwangler, which I have some doubts about. It is a lop-sided view. Too much anger and not enough Viennese charm, but it is compelling in its way. Then I got the same performers from a DG studio recording from 1951 [?], which has the measure it it much better, but is less compelling, and indeed only stays because of the marvelous live performance of the Rosamunde Overture the makes up the programme.
Then came two more Furtwangler efforts and both splendid, and humaine. Berlin live in 1953, which is long breathed and patient, but never sags, and then something VERY special: VPO live in Stockholm is 1942 only a few weeks away from the War-time Birlin recording. A different place, and atmosphere. It is achingly beautiful, and so poigniant that the second movement has on occasion reduced me to tears. There is nobility and strength here and some phenomeneal playing in a reading that is as fast as Kleiber's.
Then I got the HMV Boult again last years, and played once, that went again, as the edit is obviously not repairable. Sad really as the old 78 set showed how fine Boults reading really is. The best of all in my view.
So this Saturday I found that the BBC, on its Legends Series had release a Boult Prom performance from 1969. Is it flawed? Yes, and badly, because the audience take ages to settle at the start and actually start applauding at the very begining of the final chord, but that tells its own tale. This is wonderful reading and a wonderful performance, which comes in tolerably fine sound, but most of all Boult keeps the balances so clear that inner detail is at least as audible as on any really fine studio recording. Much better than the Tennstedt in Berlin for example. This now finds poll position for me, but the other two I really love are the Stockholm (VPO) set under Furtwangler, and the marvelously luminous Koln set under Kleiber. I cannot recomend either the Boult (live BBC) or Kleiber sets too highly though I think the Furtwangler set is currently out of print (Tahra, France), which is a shame as it is uniquely splendid in the Scherzo and Trio, which fits right in with the Viennese playing style, and also there is some rather splendid, and out and out go for it, horn playing in the Allegro ma non troppo, proper, of the First movement. Surprisingly Boult is at least as flexible as Furtwangler over tempi in the First Movement, and both managed a splendid transition from the Introduction to the Allegro ma non troppo. Kleiber has another Ace up his sleeve here, as he takes the Andante Introduction at a strick and rather (too?) quick pulse that allows a completely seemless entry to the main First Subject, which is slightly slower than Boult or Furtwangler, and again retains this pulse right into the Second Subject group, where Boult and Furtwangler relax a little. What Kleiber does is about forty years before the period boys got their hands on the music, gives them a ground-plan for action! All of them have fire and charm in fine balance, but as a total conception I would put Boult at the head. I have known this for a long time though it is incredible, that ghastly edit in the EMI studio recording of Boult. The 78s, even though there is a side break at that exact moment, are actually better when assmbled in transfer, though only the live set really shows how marvelously Boult achieves this transition. It is like a great vista on emerging from the mists of the Introduction. A moment of Beethovenian power...
Tremendous, and dumbfoundingly beautiful, all of them, actually.
Sincerely, Fredrik
Posted on: 22 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,
In my LP days I used to have the splendid set from DG of the whole lot with the BPO under Karl Boehm, and this has promted me (memory-wise) to investigate whether that venerable set is still to be had on CD. If so I shall go for it. All the really fine performances from Kleiber the Elder, Boult, Bruno Walter, Barbiroli, and Furtwangler which I went through over the years never actually displaced it as a whole, and only restoring the old London bass caused me to sell the set along with another 600 LPs! Still one great baroque bass was indeed more than compensation! There was another very fine performance of the Great C Major from Boehm on DG with the Dresden State Orchestra from right at the end of Boehm's career, which I never got, and that ought to available too... I heard the recording broadcast and never forgot it.
Fredrik

Posted on: 23 November 2005 by graham55
Fredrik
I have that Boehm set on LPs in the garage. My turntable has only recently returned from its 15 years' retirement in its box. So I'll have to hunt out the LPs and give them a spin.
I never did hear Boehm's late Dresden live recording of the Ninth, but I remember that it drew great praise at the time: did it ever make it onto CD?
Graham
Posted on: 23 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Graham,
I can only think there is an album of pleasue awaiting you! I remember the broadcast and the Desden set was special, and I don't know if it was issued on CD, but I'll find out this weekend, and get back...
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 16 January 2006 by Tam
Thought I'd dig up this old thread as I have just purchased the new Rattle/BPO. It won't be too everyone's liking, indeed, from what I've seen it seems to have aroused a fair degree of ire already. However, I found it to be rather a thrilling account. Rattle gives the work something of a 'romantic' treatment and, for my part, I find it works rather well.
I know CD review played the finale in the listening booth on Saturday, so anyone wanting a flavour can always head over to the Radio 3 website and listen again.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by kevj
Fredrik
Did you get the Bohm set on CD in the end? I got this set (if it's the same one) about a year ago for not very much cash. It was on sale somwhere for about £12 I think). Superb value for money and a truly marvellous set of recordings. Here's a link to Amazon where they're selling for £22!!)
Amazon Bohm/Schubert Symphonies (Fredrik - I know you can't use the site, but it has the catalogue number on it)
Kevin
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Kevin,
I actually had a very quiet time spending over the last six weeks, and so have not bought a CD during that period, sadly! The Boehm set is on DG and with the Berlin Phil, and I remember it from LPs as being absolutely superb!
Really I should cope with a certain amount of unexpected bills now so I'll look into getting the set again. The set of Mozart Symphonies that were issued at the same time are very high grade as well, though somehow in these I seem to prefer the extra vitality of the Klemperer recordings. This was one of the last CD purchases, though not the complete set but Symphonies 35, 36, 38, and 39-41 on two discs. This set is tremendous value, and very fine, even if I still personally prefer the older EMI recordings for Otto Klempereer.
Happy New Year to you from Fredrik
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by Earwicker
Bohm gets my vote - I've got the 8th and 9th from the set, and I've never heard another performance that can compare with them. That said, I'd like to hear Rattle's attempt...
EW
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear EW,
I don't think it is healthy to get too fixated on one specific recording of anything. Boehm's Schubert (and Mozart, among much else of course) is great, but certainly there many performances that compare, and some that are undoubtedly superior! But what do I know, heh?!
Fredrik
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
but certainly there many performances that compare
As I say, I'd like to hear Rattle...
EW
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear EW,
More than me! I have heard too many Rattle led performances in Birmingham to ever want to hear his efforts again! I actually thought the news of his conductorship of the BPO was a spoof when I first heard it! As I say I am getting more and more out of touch with what motivates the modern world. No doubt Rattle will one day be lionised as a great musician to rank with Furtwangler, Walter, Kleiber ans so on! I simply don't care for his mannered sense of style at all...
All the best from Fredrik
It probably says it all about me as a musician, that the great musicians I mention above are all lower in my person preference than Otto Klemperer, Sir John Barbiroli and Sir Adrian Boult!
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by graham55
Fredrik
Which Kleiber? I seem to recall that you prefer Erich to Carlos: other way round for me!
Just imagine what might have been if Carlos K hadn't turned down the conductorship of the BPO after HvK died.
Have you bought those speakers yet?
Graham
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by Tam
Personally, I have something of a love hate relationship with Rattle: he's done some really excellent discs and also some pretty terrible ones (his Mahler 2 is outstanding and his recent Dvorak tone poems were very good too; on the other hand, the less said about his Beethoven symphony cycle the better). Given I didn't care at all for his Beethoven, I was a little worried I wouldn't like the Schubert either (and judging by the Radio 3 message boards there are plenty who don't - though how many of the commentators have actually listened to it all is open to question, but I digress), however, I found it very enjoyable, as stated above (though I suspect you might not Fredrik

). So I'd be guarded in recommended it, since Rattle's interpretations do seem rather to polarise people quite a lot these days.
Will he be likened to Furtwangler, perhaps, though I don't think that's quite the right comparison. I must say, I thought he did wonderful things with the CBSO and I can see why the BPO picked him (from what I can remember it was largely because they wanted someone who'd bring in a lot of recording revenue).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by Tam
quote:
Originally posted by graham55:
Which Kleiber? I seem to recall that you prefer Erich to Carlos: other way round for me!
Just imagine what might have been if Carlos K hadn't turned down the conductorship of the BPO after HvK died.
Didn't know Carlos K had done it, must look out for that one.
As to Kleiber having taken the BPO job, I think that would have required him to be a thoroughly different (and altogether less reclusive) person than he was. And we wouldn't have had the Abbado Berlin partnership, which would have been a shame.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by graham55
Tam
I've caused confusion. I see now that Fredrik was being specific to Schubert's Ninth, which I hadn't appreciated in my earlier posting. As far as I know, CK never even conducted the Ninth.
I agree that CK would have needed to be a very different person to have gone to Berlin. Personally, I'd have wanted him above all others and would have tried to get the musical equivalent of a season ticket for all their home games!
Graham
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by graham55:
Fredrik
Which Kleiber? I seem to recall that you prefer Erich to Carlos: other way round for me!
---
Both, really, but there is more to listen to from old Erich.
-----------
Just imagine what might have been if Carlos K hadn't turned down the conductorship of the BPO after HvK died.
---
I think it would have been grand, but I think Abbado was rather special too. I found the news of Rattle as replacement VERY surprising.
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Have you bought those speakers yet?
---
Patience! There is a good reason to say it will be in the Autumn, as I know the very speakers I want...
------------
Graham
Dear Graham,
Sorry about the slack way of answering! Fredik
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by Tam
Out of interest then, who would they have had in place of Rattle. As far as I can remember only Barenboim was really in the frame (and I'm rather glad he didn't get it since he might not have ended up doing the West-Eastern Divan Orchestra which is very special indeed). I suppose Jansons or Haitink would have been nice to see there, though the former is doing very good things with the RCO so......
regards, Tam
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,
Personally I think that Jansons would have been a natural choice and he is a great musician with the necessary bredth of repertoire to make a fine job of the orchestra's core work, as well as introducing new ideas. Unfortunately Rattle is hopeless at Beethoven and so the whole mission seems holed below the waterline in my view!
Fredrik
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by Tam
I agree Jansons would have been good (though wasn't he having health problems at the time), still, I'm also very glad he's got the Concertgebouw so....

(I wish they'd get them to the Edinburgh festival.)
Also, I'm not sure he's that much for 'new' music, then again, for the Berlin job ability with Beethoven probably counts more and here you're absolutely right about Rattle. His set of symphonies was the only one I've been so unengaged by that I've sold it on. I recently inherited his Fidelio (which I recall being slated) so that too will be an interesting listen.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by u5227470736789439
Poor Jansons had a heart attack, but he seems to be better than ever since! I would think that Beethoven is pretty much what the BPO are famous for, and rightly. Years ago I attended a performance of the Choral under Jansons in the Festival Hall with the Philharmonia (lucky to get a ticket!), and it was one of the best concerts I have ever been to, so I guess maybe Jasons would have been just as wonderful in Berlin.
I also used to know some players from the BBC Welsh SO (sorry National Orch of Wales now I think) and Janson was a favourite guest there for many years. He has the ability to convince and motivate players, and that is important. Rattle (and again I still know some of the CBSO members, who played under him) certainly was not well liked or even well regarded as a musician, though as a disciplinarian he was successful of course.
Sorry for these fairly negative reactions to Rattle, but they are not made up, Fredrik
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by Tam
Fredrik,
Fair enough, though I do know at least one musician who speaks pretty highly of Rattle.
Out of curiosity, how is Oramo regarded? I was very impressed when I saw him with the CBSO last year (as was I when I saw the them under Ades at Aldeburgh).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,
He seems to have made a big impression on the band, and in a quieter way is carying things forward!
Personality and musical authority are something that seems to elude many music critics, and a large part of the audience, but I think it is rather important, if the result is to approach the best possible. Toscanini terrified his orchestra in terrific (almost whip-crack) playing, and Furtwangler or Walter cajoled them into doing there very best. It is possible to believe that this makes no difference at the audience end, but it does, and sometimes at the very basic level of a suitable and beautifully matched sonority. In 1934 the BBCSO made a recoding of the Brahms Fourth with Walter, which was for years a mainstay of HMV's catalogue. In 1935 (or'36?) Toscanini recorded it with them again. This [HMV] recording sounds much thinner and edgier, but this is simply down to the unsettled nature of the players under such a martinet. The recording system was the same. It is often said that there are almost no really fine recordings (from the view-point of sonority) of Toscanini. I wonder if they are actually rather faithful and if the performed sound was edgy and harsh given his way with his players. After all Walter seems always to have achieved splendid sounding performances. Rattle equally gets a tough hard sound from his band, whereas Oramo seems to draw something much sweeter and untimately more variageted and tuned to the musical needs of the music - what Furtwangler called 'precission of sonority.'
Anyway, such ramblings just show that I have different priorities to the musical money machine!
All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by Tam
The only Toscanini recordings I have are his 50s Beethoven, and I don't much care for the sound (for exactly the reason you suggest). That said, interpretively I rather enjoy them, but I also enjoy Furtwangler's Beethoven very much too.
Interestingly, I was at a concert about six months ago (Ades and the Northern Sinfonia playing among other things, Beethoven 4), I was with an uncle of mine who used to play the oboe professionally and he remarked to me, after Ades motioned to the orchestra to get up and take the applause, and they stayed seated, that they only do that if they really like the conductor. I shall be watching the BPO's behaviour closely when the come to Edinburgh this summer

regards, Tam
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear tam,
I know that in Hifi terms the aim of producing a beautifully rounded sound would be regarded with a certain disdain by Naimistas, but as I am sure you know I used gut strings on my basses for exactly those reasons! The technique needs to be much more subtle and refined, but the results are worth the extra effort. It is interesting to note how Furtwangler, especially, changes the tone of his orchestral sonority within a piece to project differing elements as the music requires it for correct expressivity. In this way he is vastly the more impressive and imaginative artist compared to Toscanini, but certainly there is visceral excitement (in my opinion to excess) in Toscanini's way, but surely this element is just as apparent in Furtwangler's work, but only when he feels this is essentially a major part of the expressive needs of the music he is reading. Strangle perhaps, Sir Adrian Boult is possesed of just the same imaginative response, but he is far too unrecognised for any critic to venture the opinion of him being at least Furtwangler's equal in Brahm or even dare I say it Beethoven!
But as I know it I can assiduously find the rare nuggets of things I know might potentially be (and very often are) extra-ordinarily wonderful musically rather than following the same herd that lionised Rattle in Birmingham, for, in my opinion, being no more than a splendid band-master!
People will start to hate me if I carry on like that! Fredrik
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by Tam
I thing that some naimistas can sometimes get a little too sneering of anything that sounds 'round-earth', however, one of the reasons I ended up with my B&W speakers is because I got a sound much more like what I get in the concert hall as opposed to what the Allaes did for me (which gave more more of a 'Toscanini' sound).
I hate to confess that I don't have a single recording by Boult, perhaps you could suggest a place to start...
regards, Tam
Posted on: 17 January 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,
Boult is going through a bad patch with almost everything except his VW and Elgar deleted, but now having a PC I could make you some discs as copies, the more so as the best of it is out of copyright now! But we have to exchange emails and I am loath to post my address here for long. If you reply to this I will put it up for a few minutes and then you can catch it before I delete it.
Fredrik