The Greatest C Major?

Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 20 November 2005

Dear Friends,

Schubert's Ninth was my first encounter with the Viennese Classics, and I have adored it for 35 years now. I was given my first LP of it for my tenth birthday, and that was the then new HMV recording of Barbiroli and the Halle Orchestra costing the procely sum of two pounds and a shilling! That was more than a premium CD now considering inflation!

In the School library we had Boult and the LPO on an old Pye mono LP, which was quite different to the my new LP, but I listened to both, not prefering either.

Over the years I have owned many recordings, and then next I got was Boult in 1934 with the BBC SO on HMV, which I taped off the radio when Boult died in 1984. It is splendid. After that I found Tennstedt with the BPO on EMI France on a brand new recording also in 1984, but this was not so fine. Far too heavy and strangely charmless. then came CDs and I got Boult's stereo HMV recording, which was disconcerting. There is a frightful edit right at the start of the main allegro in the first movement, and the effect is of a badly crashed gear on an old car. One good tug, a horrid bang and jolt, and we're off sitting back in our seeats slightly dazed! That went as did the Tennstedt. Then came what has been my favourite and just new released again now: Erich Kleiber live in Koln. [Now on Decca]. Then followed the fiery and splendid 1942 account in Berlin under Furtwangler, which I have some doubts about. It is a lop-sided view. Too much anger and not enough Viennese charm, but it is compelling in its way. Then I got the same performers from a DG studio recording from 1951 [?], which has the measure it it much better, but is less compelling, and indeed only stays because of the marvelous live performance of the Rosamunde Overture the makes up the programme.

Then came two more Furtwangler efforts and both splendid, and humaine. Berlin live in 1953, which is long breathed and patient, but never sags, and then something VERY special: VPO live in Stockholm is 1942 only a few weeks away from the War-time Birlin recording. A different place, and atmosphere. It is achingly beautiful, and so poigniant that the second movement has on occasion reduced me to tears. There is nobility and strength here and some phenomeneal playing in a reading that is as fast as Kleiber's.

Then I got the HMV Boult again last years, and played once, that went again, as the edit is obviously not repairable. Sad really as the old 78 set showed how fine Boults reading really is. The best of all in my view.

So this Saturday I found that the BBC, on its Legends Series had release a Boult Prom performance from 1969. Is it flawed? Yes, and badly, because the audience take ages to settle at the start and actually start applauding at the very begining of the final chord, but that tells its own tale. This is wonderful reading and a wonderful performance, which comes in tolerably fine sound, but most of all Boult keeps the balances so clear that inner detail is at least as audible as on any really fine studio recording. Much better than the Tennstedt in Berlin for example. This now finds poll position for me, but the other two I really love are the Stockholm (VPO) set under Furtwangler, and the marvelously luminous Koln set under Kleiber. I cannot recomend either the Boult (live BBC) or Kleiber sets too highly though I think the Furtwangler set is currently out of print (Tahra, France), which is a shame as it is uniquely splendid in the Scherzo and Trio, which fits right in with the Viennese playing style, and also there is some rather splendid, and out and out go for it, horn playing in the Allegro ma non troppo, proper, of the First movement. Surprisingly Boult is at least as flexible as Furtwangler over tempi in the First Movement, and both managed a splendid transition from the Introduction to the Allegro ma non troppo. Kleiber has another Ace up his sleeve here, as he takes the Andante Introduction at a strick and rather (too?) quick pulse that allows a completely seemless entry to the main First Subject, which is slightly slower than Boult or Furtwangler, and again retains this pulse right into the Second Subject group, where Boult and Furtwangler relax a little. What Kleiber does is about forty years before the period boys got their hands on the music, gives them a ground-plan for action! All of them have fire and charm in fine balance, but as a total conception I would put Boult at the head. I have known this for a long time though it is incredible, that ghastly edit in the EMI studio recording of Boult. The 78s, even though there is a side break at that exact moment, are actually better when assmbled in transfer, though only the live set really shows how marvelously Boult achieves this transition. It is like a great vista on emerging from the mists of the Introduction. A moment of Beethovenian power...

Tremendous, and dumbfoundingly beautiful, all of them, actually.

Sincerely, Fredrik
Posted on: 27 February 2006 by Basil
"Oooooo."

Impressive, Fredrik will think twice before crossing swords with you again!
Posted on: 27 February 2006 by graham55
EW

If I were you, I'd quit while you're behind. You are, after all, making an arse of yourself. And selective quoting from Basil's posting will fool no-one.

If you really must indulge in this nonsense, why not post a few responses on that effing onanist Berlin shite site?

Graham
Posted on: 27 February 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends, Interested In Schubert,

To get this back on line. I had cause to dig out the old HMV recording of Boult with the BBCSO done in 1934. It is a most startling reading, showing a remarkable degree of adrennalin coursing through the music, and in spite of the dim, noisy transfer, shows a reading which is most satisfying. I then replayed the 1969 Prom with the same artists, but at the other end of Boult's career. The reading is full of wisdom, subtlety and quite amazingly only a tad slower! You would hardly notice the realtively fast tempi so poised is the music making, and I had not noted them as such before, unless one considered the reading in the light of the early set. The consistencies are quite extra-ordinary.

Whilst I would not place Boult's contribution above that of Erich Kleiber, or Furtwangler, I would certainly place it alongside in its great unfolding of a masterpiece. 'Great is Great' in my book.

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 27 February 2006 by Basil
Dear Fredrik,

Prompted by this thread, I realised I have seriously neglected the Schubert Symphonies.

Digging around I found 5 recordings of the C major.

Walter - Columbia S.O - 1962

William Steinberg - Boston S.O 1969

Gunter Wand - Koln Radio Symphony Orchestra 1978

Klaus Tennstedt - Berlin P.O 1984

And HvK (Box complete) Berlin P.O 1978

I can't really make any comment, as Its been so long since I've listened. In my defence, it is easy to overlook the Schubert Symphonies due to the brilliance of his chamber works. Talking of which, whilst looking for C majors I found a copy of "The Wanderer" by Richter which I'd completely forgotten about.

As always, a pleasure to read your posts Fredrik.
Posted on: 27 February 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Basil,

Thanks. You know there are times when I wonder why I bother. I love music. I love great performances of that great music. I rarely criticise things I don't like, but pass them by without remark. I particualarly enjoy a robust debate on the merits of this or that in the course of such a thread as this, but I think sometimes there is an element out there, merely scoring points for cleverness' sake, however idiotic it actually can look. I am affraid that in real life my response would be a deal less polite.

I had the Tenstedt, with the BPO, and also I am especially fond of the Walter set. I had that on a really ancient CBS LP, but it wore out. He does the interesting thing of doubling the winds in the transistion to the trio with timps! I wonder where that came from, as it is not in the score, but it is quite effective, and not at all off-putting.

Thanks for your post from Fredrik
Posted on: 27 February 2006 by Tam
Fredrik,

Please continue to bother - there are a great many here who appreciate your posts and the music room would be a much less enjoyable and interesting place without them.

regards, Tam
Posted on: 27 February 2006 by Basil
quote:
Thanks. You know there are times when I wonder why I bother. I love music. I love great performances of that great music.


As do I.

Please don't let the small minority get to you.

P.S

I completely agree with regard to Rattle.
Posted on: 27 February 2006 by Tam
quote:
Originally posted by Basil:
I completely agree with regard to Rattle.


Rattle's new Schubert 9th is actually remarkably compelling (though a very romantic view of the work), but it actually works very well. I'm not saying I'd choose it over Kleiber or Boult but it certainly has a certain something.

Fredrik - Incidentally, mention of Rattle reminds me of the discussion we had (possibly not on this thread) mentioning Oramo - did you hear he's announced he's leaving the CBSO at the end of 2008:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=2533&newssectionID=1

regards, Tam
Posted on: 27 February 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,

I have to say that Oramo leaving the CBSO is sad news in my view. I don't get up to the Hall as often as I used to but I think he is a lovely musician. It was not so far from Worcester, but a bit of a jaunt from Hereford.

I wonder who will come along next. He doesn't seem to have been there very long.

All the best from Fredrik
Posted on: 27 February 2006 by Tam
Dear Fredrik,

I agree - I've only seem them together once, but they were wonderful (particularly the Sibelius 7 they did). They don't come and visit up here as often as they should! - but I shouldn't complain, we have a couple of fine orchestras to be getting along with.

It would be nice to see Daniel Harding get it (though from everything I read he seems terribly busy all over the place). There was a moderately interesting interview with him on Front Row this evening; it would have been more so but it was far too short and I didn't think all that much of some of Lawson's questions.

regards, Tam
Posted on: 27 February 2006 by u5227470736789439
Do you think Lawson tends to SHOUT at his interviewees? I find him on of the more offensive presenters I know of. Bring back Roy Plomley I say! He would ask the killer question in such a civil way that the answer was out before the guest knew it, and all the better for us at home! If you are going to shout at your guest then please arrange to be Robin Day! At least he was immensely funny sometimes, even if I am not sure that was quite the intention...

I prefered the arts programme when it was at 9:30 (Kaleidoscope I think), but I miss all these things now with such terrible hours at work.

I am just listening to the Horn Concrtos of Mozart for gentle soul salve!

Harding would be a very fine choice, I am sure, though, as you say, he needs to slow down his life a bit, I suspect.

All the best from Fredrik