Klemperer's Beethoven, New Issues!
Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 25 March 2007
Dear Friends,
I find a ramble round http://www.testament.co.uk/ is usually some what depressing. So much I would love to get, and so on!
Of special interest is a series of live Beethoven Symphony recordings from the Philharmonia [mainly in the Royal Festival Hall] including 1 to 5, and 7 and 8, issued for the first time. The Eroica comes in a performance with the Danish State Orchestra, presumably because it is finer than any of the Philharmonia readings.
This is in addition to two live recordings of his in the Choral Symphony and the Third, Fourth and Fifth Piano Concertos with Claudio Arraw already released. [Testamant also have royally served Solomon Cutner in the existing Sonata recordings - about half the series, before a series of strokes cut his career short -and his series of the Piano Concertos, as well as Concerti by Tchaikowsky, Bliss and so on...].
I think that though almost every recording of Furtwngler has long since been unearthed and published, the renewed interest in Klemperer's legacy quite probably has even more to offer those who really enjoy the works of Beethoven.
Also re-released is Klemperer's mid-sixties EMI reording of the Missa Solemnis, which was a problematic work for him, and yet in a fair proportion of the handful of performances he gave in his long career he obtained a phenomenal synthesis of the music, which he himself considered, "does not take account of reality in performance!" He was always deeply depressed about the way it went if it was not up to his own expectations. It seems he was satisfied with the studio recording. [There is a live recording done in 1960 Vienna with the Philharmonia, which is legendary but has only briefly made it to pubication, which is apparently spell-binding. Testamant? One day perhaps].
Another fascinating glimse of an older time is to be found as finally Testamant have released the recording done in the Royal Albert Hall of the World Premiere of R Stauss' Four Last Songs, with the Flagstad, The Philharmonia, and Furtwangler. The parts of the recording which survive, have been transfered to fill a CD. This might be priceless. The Songs are complete, and apparently in better condition than any pirate release so far... I post this up for others rather than my own consumption for all that.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
I find a ramble round http://www.testament.co.uk/ is usually some what depressing. So much I would love to get, and so on!
Of special interest is a series of live Beethoven Symphony recordings from the Philharmonia [mainly in the Royal Festival Hall] including 1 to 5, and 7 and 8, issued for the first time. The Eroica comes in a performance with the Danish State Orchestra, presumably because it is finer than any of the Philharmonia readings.
This is in addition to two live recordings of his in the Choral Symphony and the Third, Fourth and Fifth Piano Concertos with Claudio Arraw already released. [Testamant also have royally served Solomon Cutner in the existing Sonata recordings - about half the series, before a series of strokes cut his career short -and his series of the Piano Concertos, as well as Concerti by Tchaikowsky, Bliss and so on...].
I think that though almost every recording of Furtwngler has long since been unearthed and published, the renewed interest in Klemperer's legacy quite probably has even more to offer those who really enjoy the works of Beethoven.
Also re-released is Klemperer's mid-sixties EMI reording of the Missa Solemnis, which was a problematic work for him, and yet in a fair proportion of the handful of performances he gave in his long career he obtained a phenomenal synthesis of the music, which he himself considered, "does not take account of reality in performance!" He was always deeply depressed about the way it went if it was not up to his own expectations. It seems he was satisfied with the studio recording. [There is a live recording done in 1960 Vienna with the Philharmonia, which is legendary but has only briefly made it to pubication, which is apparently spell-binding. Testamant? One day perhaps].
Another fascinating glimse of an older time is to be found as finally Testamant have released the recording done in the Royal Albert Hall of the World Premiere of R Stauss' Four Last Songs, with the Flagstad, The Philharmonia, and Furtwangler. The parts of the recording which survive, have been transfered to fill a CD. This might be priceless. The Songs are complete, and apparently in better condition than any pirate release so far... I post this up for others rather than my own consumption for all that.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 26 March 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,
When Klemperer first made records for EMI in 1954, he had already made aquaintance with London audiences making music with the Philharmonia Orchestra, but as so often in in his difficult life politics stood in the way of getting an earlier, regular start in London.
His last home, would prove to be the one where he found an appropriate level of recognition. To his German people he was Jewish. To his Eastern European hosts he was politically suspect as Communism took over, though his politics were essentially socialist. On moving to the US he had a real problem as they suspected him of being a Comminist!
Only in liberal minded London did he finally find some peace. It was fortunately soon enough - during the fifties from when most of these new "live" releases come, he was surely the leading Beeethovenian in the world, following the retirement of Toscanini and deaths of Erich Kleiber, and Wihelm Furtwangler in 1954. Karajan, though arguably at his finest at this time, was not nearly so remarkable a musician as Klemperer at his greatest.
I want to really try to get some people, who are either not old enough to remember the "great" Klemperer, or who have been pursuaded by legend and some rather less fine late recordings that Klemperer's greatness was something of a myth, to at least try out one or two of these. [His tempi in the fifties were anything but slow, to cover one almost superficial aspect - in fact they were frequently faster than any of his collegues]. I shall buy them all as I can.
These live performances catch the true grandeur of Klemperer's vision and the greatness of the performances that so often resulted when he conducted in the fifties through to the mid sixties.
The shame is that record companies wanted to always have the latest technolically advanced recording issued and carried on issuing new studio recordings when better ones existed from a few years before. Of course there are exeptions, like the collaboration with Barenboim in the Five Beethoven Piano Concertos, but there are things that might better have been re-issued in an earlier recording, and this has done immense harm in my view to Klemperer's posthumous reputation.
Klemperer at his greatest simply seems more expressive, more natural, more inevitable, and more animated than any of the great Beethovenians in the decade before him, and he has not been ecliped since. I believe that these recordings will contain some of the greatest Beethoven orchestral performances yet issued on records, going on the few that I have heard so far, and the contempoary linked studio recordings, which I have always admired. Amazing as it may sound now even the critics found near unanimity in recomending the Mono recordings of the Eroica, Fifth, and Seventh Symphonies done in the studio in 1954/5 as "first recomendations, in each case."
Kindest regards from Fredrik
When Klemperer first made records for EMI in 1954, he had already made aquaintance with London audiences making music with the Philharmonia Orchestra, but as so often in in his difficult life politics stood in the way of getting an earlier, regular start in London.
His last home, would prove to be the one where he found an appropriate level of recognition. To his German people he was Jewish. To his Eastern European hosts he was politically suspect as Communism took over, though his politics were essentially socialist. On moving to the US he had a real problem as they suspected him of being a Comminist!
Only in liberal minded London did he finally find some peace. It was fortunately soon enough - during the fifties from when most of these new "live" releases come, he was surely the leading Beeethovenian in the world, following the retirement of Toscanini and deaths of Erich Kleiber, and Wihelm Furtwangler in 1954. Karajan, though arguably at his finest at this time, was not nearly so remarkable a musician as Klemperer at his greatest.
I want to really try to get some people, who are either not old enough to remember the "great" Klemperer, or who have been pursuaded by legend and some rather less fine late recordings that Klemperer's greatness was something of a myth, to at least try out one or two of these. [His tempi in the fifties were anything but slow, to cover one almost superficial aspect - in fact they were frequently faster than any of his collegues]. I shall buy them all as I can.
These live performances catch the true grandeur of Klemperer's vision and the greatness of the performances that so often resulted when he conducted in the fifties through to the mid sixties.
The shame is that record companies wanted to always have the latest technolically advanced recording issued and carried on issuing new studio recordings when better ones existed from a few years before. Of course there are exeptions, like the collaboration with Barenboim in the Five Beethoven Piano Concertos, but there are things that might better have been re-issued in an earlier recording, and this has done immense harm in my view to Klemperer's posthumous reputation.
Klemperer at his greatest simply seems more expressive, more natural, more inevitable, and more animated than any of the great Beethovenians in the decade before him, and he has not been ecliped since. I believe that these recordings will contain some of the greatest Beethoven orchestral performances yet issued on records, going on the few that I have heard so far, and the contempoary linked studio recordings, which I have always admired. Amazing as it may sound now even the critics found near unanimity in recomending the Mono recordings of the Eroica, Fifth, and Seventh Symphonies done in the studio in 1954/5 as "first recomendations, in each case."
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 29 March 2007 by Basil
quote:Karajan, though arguably at his finest at this time, was not nearly so remarkable a musician as Klemperer at his greatest.
A matter of opinion!
Where is Klemperers Britten? Schoenberg? Shostakovitch? Sibelius? Vaughn Williams?
Posted on: 29 March 2007 by u5227470736789439
Or Karajan's Elgar, Walton, etc ... Repertoire is as personal as the next aspect.
Interestly Klemperer was rather good at Sibelius, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Shostakowich [in Leningrad before 1939] Weill, Hindemith ... well the list of 20th Century composers Klemperer championed goes on and on, and is rather broader than Karajan's. Even Furtwangler was braver than Karajan in this respect. The fact that many of these modern composers were not exactly a great economic proposition for recording in London in the 1950s will explain why Klemperer is nowadays thought of as almost exclusively a Beethoven Expert, based on the recordings that were made, rather than his actual repertoire. He referred to this "narrow myth" as "His Dog Collar!" Even now there are great recordings of Stravinsky and Tchaikowsky which sadly languish in the vaults because they do not, at first sight, look like they would be any good sales-wise for a modern CD re-issue.
Though I agree that some people would say Karajan was on occasion Klemperer's equal in some respects, I am still curious to find an example of a parallel recording where Karajan is conclusively more compelling than Klemperer.
In many ways I would say Karajan represents a safe choice, rather like a Toyota car - supremely reliable, but just a little faceless - and it certainly is not true that Klemperer is ever a safe choice! But certainly often a bracing one! I would never point up the late Klemperer recordings unless they have the same sort of qualities he was bringing out in the fifties. Some of these late efforts do, such as the EMI Missa Solemnis recording I mention in the first post here for example.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Interestly Klemperer was rather good at Sibelius, Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Shostakowich [in Leningrad before 1939] Weill, Hindemith ... well the list of 20th Century composers Klemperer championed goes on and on, and is rather broader than Karajan's. Even Furtwangler was braver than Karajan in this respect. The fact that many of these modern composers were not exactly a great economic proposition for recording in London in the 1950s will explain why Klemperer is nowadays thought of as almost exclusively a Beethoven Expert, based on the recordings that were made, rather than his actual repertoire. He referred to this "narrow myth" as "His Dog Collar!" Even now there are great recordings of Stravinsky and Tchaikowsky which sadly languish in the vaults because they do not, at first sight, look like they would be any good sales-wise for a modern CD re-issue.
Though I agree that some people would say Karajan was on occasion Klemperer's equal in some respects, I am still curious to find an example of a parallel recording where Karajan is conclusively more compelling than Klemperer.
In many ways I would say Karajan represents a safe choice, rather like a Toyota car - supremely reliable, but just a little faceless - and it certainly is not true that Klemperer is ever a safe choice! But certainly often a bracing one! I would never point up the late Klemperer recordings unless they have the same sort of qualities he was bringing out in the fifties. Some of these late efforts do, such as the EMI Missa Solemnis recording I mention in the first post here for example.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 30 March 2007 by Basil
quote:Though I agree that some people would say Karajan was on occasion Klemperer's equal in some respects, I am still curious to find an example of a parallel recording where Karajan is conclusively more compelling than Klemperer.
Considering the fact that Klemperer was 23 years older than Karajan, I’m not sure such a thing as a parallel recording exists. I suppose his 50’s cycle of Beethoven symphonies with the Philharmonia or the recordings done with the VPO in Vienna in ’46 are probably the closest.
Do you have either of these?
Posted on: 30 March 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Basil,
We had some of the Philharmonia/Karajan/Beethoven cycle in the school library, at which time I was getting my own first LPs. Later I had a Karajan issue of the immediate post 1945 recordings done in Vienna, on early eighties LP re-issues.
I did not still have them by the time I parted with 95% of my LPs in 1991. I found them dull, badly recorded [in the main far worse than EMI recordings from the thirties for some reason], and nothing like as compelling as Klemperer or Erich Kleiber in the same repertoire. Somehow the key nodal points in the Choral for example just never felt fully driven home with conviction for me. Loud, but not felt internally in a way. No I am not going to convince you like this!
It is all opinion, and I can no longer put two parallel - in terms of recording date is what I meant - records on to compare. My tastes have certainly evolved, but I would say they have evolved even further from the Karajan way, and even away from the excesses of Furtwangler as well.
Karajan is too calculated for me. Furtewangler, too wayward in his tempi changes... There seems an awe inspiring clarity, and almost terrifying momnetum in Klemperer's vision, as well as a touching glimse of beauty from time to time, which is all the more of a contrast given his frequent Toscanini-like energy, and seriousness in the bigger picture.
I am sure that we shall not agree on this, and I hope that you can accept my enthusiasm for the great master, Otto Klemperer, while I am quite prepared to applaud your taste as being different, in favour of the great master, Herbert von Karajan.
The reason I wanted to put this thread up is to persuade those who want something special and new to investigate in Beethoven's music, to have a lead to it. I am sure when Karajan is the subject of a good series of re-isses you will do the same for him, and rightly praise him!
Kindest regards from Fredrik
We had some of the Philharmonia/Karajan/Beethoven cycle in the school library, at which time I was getting my own first LPs. Later I had a Karajan issue of the immediate post 1945 recordings done in Vienna, on early eighties LP re-issues.
I did not still have them by the time I parted with 95% of my LPs in 1991. I found them dull, badly recorded [in the main far worse than EMI recordings from the thirties for some reason], and nothing like as compelling as Klemperer or Erich Kleiber in the same repertoire. Somehow the key nodal points in the Choral for example just never felt fully driven home with conviction for me. Loud, but not felt internally in a way. No I am not going to convince you like this!
It is all opinion, and I can no longer put two parallel - in terms of recording date is what I meant - records on to compare. My tastes have certainly evolved, but I would say they have evolved even further from the Karajan way, and even away from the excesses of Furtwangler as well.
Karajan is too calculated for me. Furtewangler, too wayward in his tempi changes... There seems an awe inspiring clarity, and almost terrifying momnetum in Klemperer's vision, as well as a touching glimse of beauty from time to time, which is all the more of a contrast given his frequent Toscanini-like energy, and seriousness in the bigger picture.
I am sure that we shall not agree on this, and I hope that you can accept my enthusiasm for the great master, Otto Klemperer, while I am quite prepared to applaud your taste as being different, in favour of the great master, Herbert von Karajan.
The reason I wanted to put this thread up is to persuade those who want something special and new to investigate in Beethoven's music, to have a lead to it. I am sure when Karajan is the subject of a good series of re-isses you will do the same for him, and rightly praise him!
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 30 March 2007 by pe-zulu
Dear Fredrik
Rather interesting thread. Some months ago I decided to reacquire the Beethoven/Klemperer Symphonies I used to own on vinyl. Until now I have got the Vox releases of the Symphonies no.s 5 and 6 with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra from 1952 and the mono no.s 3,5 and 7 with the Philharmonia from 1955/6. Next step would be the complete stereo set from the late 1950es with the Philharmonia, but these Testament releases look rather tempting. Unfortunately they are perhaps a bit expensive, so I think I shall acquire the studio recordings and complement at time with some of the Testament recordings. Incidentally I remember the concert with the Royal Danish Chapel ca. 1958, which was broadcasted in the Danish radio live (Eroica and Brahms fourth), and impressive as it was, it is no match for the mono studio recording, so the live Erica is exclusively for Klemperer afficionados, I think.
I have heard (some years ago) a number of Karajans Philharmonia Beethoven Symphonies and would call them impeccable but rather smooth (read superficial), no match for Klemperers dramatic renderings.
Regards,
Rather interesting thread. Some months ago I decided to reacquire the Beethoven/Klemperer Symphonies I used to own on vinyl. Until now I have got the Vox releases of the Symphonies no.s 5 and 6 with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra from 1952 and the mono no.s 3,5 and 7 with the Philharmonia from 1955/6. Next step would be the complete stereo set from the late 1950es with the Philharmonia, but these Testament releases look rather tempting. Unfortunately they are perhaps a bit expensive, so I think I shall acquire the studio recordings and complement at time with some of the Testament recordings. Incidentally I remember the concert with the Royal Danish Chapel ca. 1958, which was broadcasted in the Danish radio live (Eroica and Brahms fourth), and impressive as it was, it is no match for the mono studio recording, so the live Erica is exclusively for Klemperer afficionados, I think.
I have heard (some years ago) a number of Karajans Philharmonia Beethoven Symphonies and would call them impeccable but rather smooth (read superficial), no match for Klemperers dramatic renderings.
Regards,
Posted on: 30 March 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Poul,
I think that I was going to probably avoid the Danish performance of the Eroica, though knowing someone who remembers it - I remember some relays on the radio which will one day reappear I am sure, like the Brahms First at the RFH under Karajan, which was his very last concert in UK: It started late! - makes me think I ought to get it, though the studio effort will take some matching!
It is interesting that the Pastoral does not appear among the live recordings - at least it has not yet been issued...
What is the Vox recording of the Pastoral like? I have the EMI stereo studio set, which is certainly not quite as per expectations, at least in the Peasants' Dance! I have the Vox set of the Fifth, which is bettered by the 1955 EMI recocrding on many levels, in my view.
If you are going for the stereo set on single discs, I think that the Seventh is not among the better efforts, whereas the early set is very fine, and the later Fifth is also less fine, but compelling in a strangely powerful and unique way.
But as for the rest of the stereo set: One, brilliant, Two, even more brilliant, Three, magesterial, but still compelling, Four, more or less perfection, Five, as above, Six, as above, Seven, not my ideal at all, Eight, the best I have ever come across, and Nine is only bettered by the live recordings in my view. The trouble for Klemperer is that his bipolar mental state meant that he was not always at his finest, and somehow I wish the Fifth had not been redone, and the Seventh not redone twice.
In a way Klemperer's later recordings can be like great but sometimes damaged paintings - at once both wonderous, and occasionally deeply frustrating, for wondering how fine they really might have been on a different day.
I really hope that these live concerts are all as illuminatng as the two live concerts of the Choral and the snippets I have listened to from the rest!
For me this is going to be a really exciting adventure. I will report back here with the results as I can afford the discs! One at a time I must say...
ATB from Fredrik
I think that I was going to probably avoid the Danish performance of the Eroica, though knowing someone who remembers it - I remember some relays on the radio which will one day reappear I am sure, like the Brahms First at the RFH under Karajan, which was his very last concert in UK: It started late! - makes me think I ought to get it, though the studio effort will take some matching!
It is interesting that the Pastoral does not appear among the live recordings - at least it has not yet been issued...
What is the Vox recording of the Pastoral like? I have the EMI stereo studio set, which is certainly not quite as per expectations, at least in the Peasants' Dance! I have the Vox set of the Fifth, which is bettered by the 1955 EMI recocrding on many levels, in my view.
If you are going for the stereo set on single discs, I think that the Seventh is not among the better efforts, whereas the early set is very fine, and the later Fifth is also less fine, but compelling in a strangely powerful and unique way.
But as for the rest of the stereo set: One, brilliant, Two, even more brilliant, Three, magesterial, but still compelling, Four, more or less perfection, Five, as above, Six, as above, Seven, not my ideal at all, Eight, the best I have ever come across, and Nine is only bettered by the live recordings in my view. The trouble for Klemperer is that his bipolar mental state meant that he was not always at his finest, and somehow I wish the Fifth had not been redone, and the Seventh not redone twice.
In a way Klemperer's later recordings can be like great but sometimes damaged paintings - at once both wonderous, and occasionally deeply frustrating, for wondering how fine they really might have been on a different day.
I really hope that these live concerts are all as illuminatng as the two live concerts of the Choral and the snippets I have listened to from the rest!
For me this is going to be a really exciting adventure. I will report back here with the results as I can afford the discs! One at a time I must say...
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 31 March 2007 by pe-zulu
Dear Fredrik
The Klemperer Vienna no.6 is not that different from the Philharmonia version. The excentricities in the third movement are similar. And the Vienna Symphony Orchestra is not the Philharmonia. Never-the-less it is interesting because of its different orchestral sound, and because it tells how consistent Klemperers interpretations was with different orchestras.
I think, I shall go for the studio-stereo box in the first place, as it is relatively inexpensive, even if I don´t need the stereo no.3, 5 and 7 badly.
Regards,
The Klemperer Vienna no.6 is not that different from the Philharmonia version. The excentricities in the third movement are similar. And the Vienna Symphony Orchestra is not the Philharmonia. Never-the-less it is interesting because of its different orchestral sound, and because it tells how consistent Klemperers interpretations was with different orchestras.
I think, I shall go for the studio-stereo box in the first place, as it is relatively inexpensive, even if I don´t need the stereo no.3, 5 and 7 badly.
Regards,
Posted on: 31 March 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Poul,
I had a fair idea that the way the middle movement of the Pastoral under Klemperer was played was no accident, and so it does not surprise me to read that the approach is similar in the Vox recording done in Vienna.
Have you a link to where this [and the Vienna Vox recording of the Fifth] may be had? I rather like the reading in the Philharmonia, and don't find the emphasis on the slow "rural" Peasant dance disturbing in the least, but it certainly is not what you might "expect!"
I have the Vox record of Five, but it is certainly a "commercial pirate disc" done safely legally as the recording is now out of copyright. I also have the Vienna Vox recording of the Missa Solemnis, which is a great performance badly recorded! That is a proper Vox CD...
Kindest regards from Fredrik
I had a fair idea that the way the middle movement of the Pastoral under Klemperer was played was no accident, and so it does not surprise me to read that the approach is similar in the Vox recording done in Vienna.
Have you a link to where this [and the Vienna Vox recording of the Fifth] may be had? I rather like the reading in the Philharmonia, and don't find the emphasis on the slow "rural" Peasant dance disturbing in the least, but it certainly is not what you might "expect!"
I have the Vox record of Five, but it is certainly a "commercial pirate disc" done safely legally as the recording is now out of copyright. I also have the Vienna Vox recording of the Missa Solemnis, which is a great performance badly recorded! That is a proper Vox CD...
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 31 March 2007 by pe-zulu
Dear Fredrik
Yes, here:
http://www.cd101.net/
It is about so called customer discs, made on request as CDRs by the owner of the copyrights. Generally high quality and midprice.
You will find a double CD , one of them containing the Symphonies 5 and 6, the other containing the Missa Solemnis.
Control your mail though.
Regards,
Yes, here:
http://www.cd101.net/
It is about so called customer discs, made on request as CDRs by the owner of the copyrights. Generally high quality and midprice.
You will find a double CD , one of them containing the Symphonies 5 and 6, the other containing the Missa Solemnis.
Control your mail though.
Regards,
Posted on: 31 March 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Poul,
That looks like a very sensible way to produce low quantities of recording that for their obvious demand levels would never be likely to stay in the catalogue more than a month or two now, and yet allows access to things that would otherwise be completely unavailable.
A very good developement...
ATB from Fredrik
That looks like a very sensible way to produce low quantities of recording that for their obvious demand levels would never be likely to stay in the catalogue more than a month or two now, and yet allows access to things that would otherwise be completely unavailable.
A very good developement...
ATB from Fredrik
Posted on: 02 April 2007 by Big Brother
Fredrik,
I'm gonna order the Beethoven Symphonies for my dad, who's birthday is coming up. Looks promising.
It will be interesting to get your views on the Arrau collaboration. These were two unique but extremely different musical temperaments, artistically and personally. I had tickets to see Arrau in the mid 80's, but he canceled at the last minute. One of the great regrets of my concert going career.
Regards
BB
I'm gonna order the Beethoven Symphonies for my dad, who's birthday is coming up. Looks promising.
It will be interesting to get your views on the Arrau collaboration. These were two unique but extremely different musical temperaments, artistically and personally. I had tickets to see Arrau in the mid 80's, but he canceled at the last minute. One of the great regrets of my concert going career.
Regards
BB
Posted on: 02 April 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear BB,
One of the really great, if undemonstrative, concertos is Mozaer's B Flat, No 27. I have Klemperer with Clara Haskil [live concert with the Koln Orchestra on Music and Arts, USA] in this, and what a surprise, perhaps, unless you realise that he was one of the all time great accompanists.
Haskil is delicate, musically powerful, but not dynamically, and basically rather fast in tempi.
Guess what? Klemperer absolutely seconds the reading, almost as if no conductor were intervening between the orchestra and the soloist. His accompaniments for Barenboim, Oistack, Menuhin, and so on are all taylored to the soloists demands with gossamer touch. To find out how he got on with Arraw will be fascinating! I would guess Beethoven is the winner, once again.
Apparently he could not agree with Schnabel!
Kindest regards from Fredrik
One of the really great, if undemonstrative, concertos is Mozaer's B Flat, No 27. I have Klemperer with Clara Haskil [live concert with the Koln Orchestra on Music and Arts, USA] in this, and what a surprise, perhaps, unless you realise that he was one of the all time great accompanists.
Haskil is delicate, musically powerful, but not dynamically, and basically rather fast in tempi.
Guess what? Klemperer absolutely seconds the reading, almost as if no conductor were intervening between the orchestra and the soloist. His accompaniments for Barenboim, Oistack, Menuhin, and so on are all taylored to the soloists demands with gossamer touch. To find out how he got on with Arraw will be fascinating! I would guess Beethoven is the winner, once again.
Apparently he could not agree with Schnabel!
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 03 April 2007 by graham55
Before you all get too carried away........
Erich Kleiber was a greater conductor of the Beethoven symphonies than Otto Klemperer.
Klemperer's mono recordings of the Third, Fifth and Seventh are great recordings. But Erich Kleiber's recordings are, all being said, better.
Graham
Erich Kleiber was a greater conductor of the Beethoven symphonies than Otto Klemperer.
Klemperer's mono recordings of the Third, Fifth and Seventh are great recordings. But Erich Kleiber's recordings are, all being said, better.
Graham
Posted on: 03 April 2007 by Tam
My only experience of Klemperer in the symphonies comes from the EMI box of his recordings with the Philharmonia (along with the concertos with Barenboim mentioned above). I'm afraid that by and large I've found them a little disappointing and even turgid in places (the seventh in particular). Of course, the 3rd is very well served by Klemperer's approach (and yet not quite such grandeur as Jochum manages with the LSO - another very fine Beethoven conductor of a similar era).
Perhaps its the recording studio - since Klemperer's live Fidelio (albeit in mono) on Testament is much spryer and a fantastic set (which I can't really recommend highly enough), so I may have a look at one or two of these new issues.
That said, based on what I've heard so far I rather agree that Kleiber snr was a finer Beethoven interpreter - and there's a very good decca set on their original masters labels, which contains a number of his recordings of the symphonies (including an exception 6th with the Concertgebouw). Of course, there's also Kleiber jnr, whose Beethoven was also pretty exceptional.
regards, Tam
Perhaps its the recording studio - since Klemperer's live Fidelio (albeit in mono) on Testament is much spryer and a fantastic set (which I can't really recommend highly enough), so I may have a look at one or two of these new issues.
That said, based on what I've heard so far I rather agree that Kleiber snr was a finer Beethoven interpreter - and there's a very good decca set on their original masters labels, which contains a number of his recordings of the symphonies (including an exception 6th with the Concertgebouw). Of course, there's also Kleiber jnr, whose Beethoven was also pretty exceptional.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 03 April 2007 by graham55
Tam, the EMI box of symphonies and piano concertos show a conductor well past his best.
But Klemperer was able to go on to great things in his last years: his Flying Dutchman is extraordinary!
The jury will always be out over Erich vs Carlos, but I just wanted to point out that there was a far greater Beethoven interpreter than Klemperer working in the studio in the early Fifties. Fredrik won't agree, of course!
But Klemperer was able to go on to great things in his last years: his Flying Dutchman is extraordinary!
The jury will always be out over Erich vs Carlos, but I just wanted to point out that there was a far greater Beethoven interpreter than Klemperer working in the studio in the early Fifties. Fredrik won't agree, of course!
Posted on: 04 April 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Graham, and Tam,
I am not really interested in comparisons of truly great music, or even truly great musicians playing it. It is fairly fruitless in my view. For me what is fascinating is to invetigate the work of the most satisfying artists in my favourite repertoire, and then spread out by finding unknown repertoire from an artists I have found satifying in music I know and love!
I have already pointed out that where there are alternative recordings from Klemperer, it may well to be the case that recordings done after the mid-sixties tend to be less fine than earlier ones. There are exceptions. We may not agree on just which ones however, so I am not going to join that debate. My view is already expressed above with regard to Beethoven's symphonies under Klemperer's lead, and I am pleased to see differing opinions without the need for me to disagree. It remains opinion - mine or someone else's - and all subjective.
However, when one is discussing the qualities of two artists of the calibre of Erich Kleiber and Otto Klemperer, the answer, really, is to investigate both! To say one is finer than the other is to walk on very thin ice. Rather like saying Leonardo is finer than Michelangelo! Or Mozart is greater than Bach. I know which ones I prefer, but certainly does not make my favourites the greater artists! I never compare the great! I am prepared to compare the good and the great on rare occasions, and when I do I try to explain the reasoning, though that is still somewhat subjective!
Kindest regards form Fredrik
I am not really interested in comparisons of truly great music, or even truly great musicians playing it. It is fairly fruitless in my view. For me what is fascinating is to invetigate the work of the most satisfying artists in my favourite repertoire, and then spread out by finding unknown repertoire from an artists I have found satifying in music I know and love!
I have already pointed out that where there are alternative recordings from Klemperer, it may well to be the case that recordings done after the mid-sixties tend to be less fine than earlier ones. There are exceptions. We may not agree on just which ones however, so I am not going to join that debate. My view is already expressed above with regard to Beethoven's symphonies under Klemperer's lead, and I am pleased to see differing opinions without the need for me to disagree. It remains opinion - mine or someone else's - and all subjective.
However, when one is discussing the qualities of two artists of the calibre of Erich Kleiber and Otto Klemperer, the answer, really, is to investigate both! To say one is finer than the other is to walk on very thin ice. Rather like saying Leonardo is finer than Michelangelo! Or Mozart is greater than Bach. I know which ones I prefer, but certainly does not make my favourites the greater artists! I never compare the great! I am prepared to compare the good and the great on rare occasions, and when I do I try to explain the reasoning, though that is still somewhat subjective!
Kindest regards form Fredrik
Posted on: 15 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Not closed! Good. Big post later! Fredrik
Posted on: 15 May 2007 by Cheese
We'll see. My copy of HvK's 1947 Deutsches Requiem is awaiting me at the shop and it isn't proven that Klemperer/Schwarzkopf/Dieskau - my fave version by far - will come out as a winner (Hans Hotter !). Oh and it's one of my all time favourite works so I'm in for a few nice listening sessions. And if that weren't enough, I could even try out the Kempe package for sale at our local charity shop ?!quote:Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Karajan, though arguably at his finest at this time, was not nearly so remarkable a musician as Klemperer at his greatest.
Posted on: 15 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Cheese,
"We'll see..."
You write as if there is a definitive answer as to whether there really is a difference in qualitative greatness between the various artists you, other people, and I have mentioned here in performing this piece of music or that. Clearly not, in objective reality, as music and its performance mean nothing beyond what it means to the individual. A good deal of music has a response in a good many people, but this is certainly never a Universal response for all people. Bach's works are loved and revered by many, but the response, even in this case, is by no means Universal. How much less Universal then will the reaction to different performances of the works themselves?
Thus if you enjoy the 1947 Karajan album of 78s of Brahms German Requiem more than Klemperer's LP set, or the Kempe recording, this certainly does not mean one is finer than the others in a generally applicable way! You will have a preference in all likelyhood, but this proves nothing objective! I think we can probably agree that the three performances you mention are all cut from similar great cloth, but vary as to cut and style somewhat. As I said above, I don't care to compare the music of Bach and Mozart. I know which I prefer but that does alter the consensus that both are widely regarded as composers of great music, which is about as close as it is possible to being objective as can be managed in matters musical. [Of course there are stylististic and technical issues which are clear cut, but this more a question of craft than art, and I don't suppose it is contentious to say that "great craftmanship is not necessarily the progenitor of great artistry!"]
So I suspect that "you will see" which you like the best for you, but certainly not that "We'll see..." anything beyond which performance you prefer! A nice review of what it is you enjoy about this or that performence would be a fascinating read, just like Todd's many writings on Beethoven and so forth. As it happens I don't always agree with Todd's conclusions, but his post here are among the most compelling because he explains his reasoning.
If I post about a piece of music or a performance of it, my motivation is only to spread interest in something, perhaps not so mainstream. The mainstream largely looks after itself. My reasoning for posting about Klemperer's Beethoven performances in this Thread is only to dispel some of the myths and legends that suround him, and generate some interest in his legacy which still has [by wide ranging critical opinion] something to offer us even nowadays. The best of the recordings that make up Klemperer's legacy are frequently not always the most widely distributed ones, and in that way I want to point out some very special performances that are hardly well know about nowadays.
You quote me:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
"Karajan, though arguably at his finest at this time, was not nearly so remarkable a musician as Klemperer at his greatest."
I should certainly have added the rider, in my opinion, though those who regularly read what I have written in the Music Room will know that the only time I am not expressing my opinion is on matters of fact like correct reading of music, avoiding anachronisms and so forth, where there is clear evidence about stylistic propriety. On matters subjective, I prefer it if others actually disagree and propose their own view [or on ocassion agree!], as this surely is more interesting for everyone else who looks at the thread, though I suspect none of us can claim to sit in the "Objective Throne Of Truth" regarding comparing the great with the great in music.
I was hoping to post about the Pastoral Symphony this evening, but time is short...
Kindest regards from Fredrik
"We'll see..."
You write as if there is a definitive answer as to whether there really is a difference in qualitative greatness between the various artists you, other people, and I have mentioned here in performing this piece of music or that. Clearly not, in objective reality, as music and its performance mean nothing beyond what it means to the individual. A good deal of music has a response in a good many people, but this is certainly never a Universal response for all people. Bach's works are loved and revered by many, but the response, even in this case, is by no means Universal. How much less Universal then will the reaction to different performances of the works themselves?
Thus if you enjoy the 1947 Karajan album of 78s of Brahms German Requiem more than Klemperer's LP set, or the Kempe recording, this certainly does not mean one is finer than the others in a generally applicable way! You will have a preference in all likelyhood, but this proves nothing objective! I think we can probably agree that the three performances you mention are all cut from similar great cloth, but vary as to cut and style somewhat. As I said above, I don't care to compare the music of Bach and Mozart. I know which I prefer but that does alter the consensus that both are widely regarded as composers of great music, which is about as close as it is possible to being objective as can be managed in matters musical. [Of course there are stylististic and technical issues which are clear cut, but this more a question of craft than art, and I don't suppose it is contentious to say that "great craftmanship is not necessarily the progenitor of great artistry!"]
So I suspect that "you will see" which you like the best for you, but certainly not that "We'll see..." anything beyond which performance you prefer! A nice review of what it is you enjoy about this or that performence would be a fascinating read, just like Todd's many writings on Beethoven and so forth. As it happens I don't always agree with Todd's conclusions, but his post here are among the most compelling because he explains his reasoning.
If I post about a piece of music or a performance of it, my motivation is only to spread interest in something, perhaps not so mainstream. The mainstream largely looks after itself. My reasoning for posting about Klemperer's Beethoven performances in this Thread is only to dispel some of the myths and legends that suround him, and generate some interest in his legacy which still has [by wide ranging critical opinion] something to offer us even nowadays. The best of the recordings that make up Klemperer's legacy are frequently not always the most widely distributed ones, and in that way I want to point out some very special performances that are hardly well know about nowadays.
You quote me:
Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
"Karajan, though arguably at his finest at this time, was not nearly so remarkable a musician as Klemperer at his greatest."
I should certainly have added the rider, in my opinion, though those who regularly read what I have written in the Music Room will know that the only time I am not expressing my opinion is on matters of fact like correct reading of music, avoiding anachronisms and so forth, where there is clear evidence about stylistic propriety. On matters subjective, I prefer it if others actually disagree and propose their own view [or on ocassion agree!], as this surely is more interesting for everyone else who looks at the thread, though I suspect none of us can claim to sit in the "Objective Throne Of Truth" regarding comparing the great with the great in music.
I was hoping to post about the Pastoral Symphony this evening, but time is short...
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 15 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Klemperer leads Beethoven's Fifth and Sixth Symphonies with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra in Mono studio recordings on the Vox label.
Dear Friends,
Today I was given the old mono Vox recording of the Pastoral Symphony with Klemperer and the VSO that pe-zulu mentions on the previous page. I already have the coupled recording of the Fifth, and that is very similar to the set Klemperer recorded in Mono for EMI in about 1955. The slightly older Vox performance is not better than the Philharmonia Orchestra's one under Klemperer for EMI in any detail though it is a very splendid performance all the same. The rugged opening seems to make the First Movement inevitably powerful from the very opening bars, and so it proves. The Second movement is surprisingly beautiful in its phrasing and poise, but not a breath of Romanticism is to be found. It is rather austere, but none-the-worse for that in my view.
Klemperer’s sense of Architectural expressive control lead to the an integration of tempos for the last two movements allows for a perfectly judged change of mood at the end of the mysterious pianissimo passage that leads into the blaze of joyful C Major at the opening bar of the Finale seemingly without perceptible adjustment of tempo [so accute is the judgement, giving a true sense of natural power to the new music], and when this mysterious music returns in the course of the Finale, there is no sense that the tension is lost in a slowing. Klemperer simply avoids either a too slow a tempo for the Scherzo or a too fast one for the Finale, so that there is enough room for the accelerando in the Coda, which becomes noble and inevitable - a real clincher in the Classical conflict between the darkness of the earlier part of the Symphony and the sense of hope for human strength in the face of life's strife, that eventually holds sway. Klemperer completely avoids any sense of bombast thatcan so easily plague this movement in over-wraught readings. Beethoven frequently moves from chaos to order in his music by the end, but never the other way round. He was the last of the Classicists.
This the first half of the disc, with the Pastoral following, and given that pe-zulu considers that the Vox performance of this is very similar to the subsequent London [EMI Stereo] set, I was wondering what, apart from Orchestral style might be significant.
In my view, the differences are both small and very significant. The First Movement [exposition repeat taken] is no faster than his famous EMI recording, but the small lithe sounding Vienna Symphony Orchestra, though more frail sounding, are more alert to subtle expression than the Philharmonia, who are more polished, but to my mind slightly less involving. There is nothing slow about it, but nothing rushed either. The Movement's title, “Happy Feelings On Arriving In The Countryside," could hardly be better characterised.
The Scene by the Brook carries straight on in this direct and unstressed way, and is simply as beautiful as you could wish. Nothing eccentric in any way, and leading into the high spirits of the Peasants Merrymaking…
This is the point in the London recording where Klemperer famous disagreed with Walter Legge [the recording producer] about the tempo for the Dance! In my view the later recording teeters on the edge of parody. You expect a village band to play in a relaxed and fairly steady fashion – this is not a high-class concert band, but the musicians of the village. In Vienna, the tempo is almost identical, but the mood is different. Only a fraction faster in parts, because Klemperer allows himself a few tempo modifications along the way, and the movement become not only gamesome fun, but also, inevitably a real preparation for the Storm. Here the drama inherent in the music is driven like the “Clappers of Hell” by Klemperer, but never loosing sight of clear balance and articulation, Furtwangler’s description of the movement as a “Recitative for Full Orchestra” becomes entirely apt. I don’t recall this from the London recording, which is made on a larger band, and this perhaps explains the lithe muscularity here. The lower strings really dig into the rolling over phrases, though these will never come out clearly, considering the impossibility of fingering them accurately! What is striking is that the tension of it is managed without simply playing very loudly. The small band will not manage the dynamic width of a much larger Orchestra like the Philharmonia, and yet the gain in tension here is down to “clarity, and musical balances, and playing only just within the possibilities of the speed!"
The Storm itself dies away in the music and the transition to the Finale is as well judged as I have ever heard it – seamless. The Finale then becomes much more a joyful conclusion than the title, “Sheppard’s Thanksgiving” might suggest. It is one of those movements where Beethoven exalts in music, and this performance brings this out fully. I would be glad to ever attend a concert with the Pastoral Symphony so beautifully played.
It becomes my favourite performance on records, now, so let me hope that the Testament “live” first issues give me as much pleasure.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
[PS: Note: The recording is adequate, very clear and not nearly so resplendant as the EMI ones from slightly later. The winds are very forward as befits a fairly small orchestral scale].
Dear Friends,
Today I was given the old mono Vox recording of the Pastoral Symphony with Klemperer and the VSO that pe-zulu mentions on the previous page. I already have the coupled recording of the Fifth, and that is very similar to the set Klemperer recorded in Mono for EMI in about 1955. The slightly older Vox performance is not better than the Philharmonia Orchestra's one under Klemperer for EMI in any detail though it is a very splendid performance all the same. The rugged opening seems to make the First Movement inevitably powerful from the very opening bars, and so it proves. The Second movement is surprisingly beautiful in its phrasing and poise, but not a breath of Romanticism is to be found. It is rather austere, but none-the-worse for that in my view.
Klemperer’s sense of Architectural expressive control lead to the an integration of tempos for the last two movements allows for a perfectly judged change of mood at the end of the mysterious pianissimo passage that leads into the blaze of joyful C Major at the opening bar of the Finale seemingly without perceptible adjustment of tempo [so accute is the judgement, giving a true sense of natural power to the new music], and when this mysterious music returns in the course of the Finale, there is no sense that the tension is lost in a slowing. Klemperer simply avoids either a too slow a tempo for the Scherzo or a too fast one for the Finale, so that there is enough room for the accelerando in the Coda, which becomes noble and inevitable - a real clincher in the Classical conflict between the darkness of the earlier part of the Symphony and the sense of hope for human strength in the face of life's strife, that eventually holds sway. Klemperer completely avoids any sense of bombast thatcan so easily plague this movement in over-wraught readings. Beethoven frequently moves from chaos to order in his music by the end, but never the other way round. He was the last of the Classicists.
This the first half of the disc, with the Pastoral following, and given that pe-zulu considers that the Vox performance of this is very similar to the subsequent London [EMI Stereo] set, I was wondering what, apart from Orchestral style might be significant.
In my view, the differences are both small and very significant. The First Movement [exposition repeat taken] is no faster than his famous EMI recording, but the small lithe sounding Vienna Symphony Orchestra, though more frail sounding, are more alert to subtle expression than the Philharmonia, who are more polished, but to my mind slightly less involving. There is nothing slow about it, but nothing rushed either. The Movement's title, “Happy Feelings On Arriving In The Countryside," could hardly be better characterised.
The Scene by the Brook carries straight on in this direct and unstressed way, and is simply as beautiful as you could wish. Nothing eccentric in any way, and leading into the high spirits of the Peasants Merrymaking…
This is the point in the London recording where Klemperer famous disagreed with Walter Legge [the recording producer] about the tempo for the Dance! In my view the later recording teeters on the edge of parody. You expect a village band to play in a relaxed and fairly steady fashion – this is not a high-class concert band, but the musicians of the village. In Vienna, the tempo is almost identical, but the mood is different. Only a fraction faster in parts, because Klemperer allows himself a few tempo modifications along the way, and the movement become not only gamesome fun, but also, inevitably a real preparation for the Storm. Here the drama inherent in the music is driven like the “Clappers of Hell” by Klemperer, but never loosing sight of clear balance and articulation, Furtwangler’s description of the movement as a “Recitative for Full Orchestra” becomes entirely apt. I don’t recall this from the London recording, which is made on a larger band, and this perhaps explains the lithe muscularity here. The lower strings really dig into the rolling over phrases, though these will never come out clearly, considering the impossibility of fingering them accurately! What is striking is that the tension of it is managed without simply playing very loudly. The small band will not manage the dynamic width of a much larger Orchestra like the Philharmonia, and yet the gain in tension here is down to “clarity, and musical balances, and playing only just within the possibilities of the speed!"
The Storm itself dies away in the music and the transition to the Finale is as well judged as I have ever heard it – seamless. The Finale then becomes much more a joyful conclusion than the title, “Sheppard’s Thanksgiving” might suggest. It is one of those movements where Beethoven exalts in music, and this performance brings this out fully. I would be glad to ever attend a concert with the Pastoral Symphony so beautifully played.
It becomes my favourite performance on records, now, so let me hope that the Testament “live” first issues give me as much pleasure.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
[PS: Note: The recording is adequate, very clear and not nearly so resplendant as the EMI ones from slightly later. The winds are very forward as befits a fairly small orchestral scale].
Posted on: 15 May 2007 by acad tsunami
Fredrik,
Thanks for the above. An excellent and most informative post.
Thanks for the above. An excellent and most informative post.
Posted on: 15 May 2007 by Big Brother
Thanks Fredrik,
I can remember hearing Isaac Stern saying that a conductor is someone who has to convince an orchestra that he knows more about the score, than all the members of the orchestra COMBINED. That's only the beginning. In this same program I heard Yehudi Menuhin describing what it was that made Klemperer so special, after moments of being tongue tied and sputtering, he finally says "He was a kind of magician"
I remember attending a performance of the Metropolitan opera many years ago. I met a couple from Budapest and the husband remembered Klemperer from his days at the Budapest Opera. He says moments after he and his dad sat down the first time they saw the Great conductor, the orchestra started playing (The beginning of Lohengrin with the strings) he looked at his dad, who looked at him. The orchestra was familiar to them from a hundred performances but the sound they heard was entirely new. The strings had such a purity, transparency and power, that they were startled.
There is a film of Klemperer conducting the very same Beethoven fifth, he looks fairly young so it would be about the time of the Vox records. A giant of a man with horn rimmed spectacles who looks as if he is casting an incantation on the orchestra.
I know the Vox records are fairly crude in sound and hardly ideal. It's good to have your views on the differences between those and the earlier EMI records that are more familiar.
BB
I can remember hearing Isaac Stern saying that a conductor is someone who has to convince an orchestra that he knows more about the score, than all the members of the orchestra COMBINED. That's only the beginning. In this same program I heard Yehudi Menuhin describing what it was that made Klemperer so special, after moments of being tongue tied and sputtering, he finally says "He was a kind of magician"
I remember attending a performance of the Metropolitan opera many years ago. I met a couple from Budapest and the husband remembered Klemperer from his days at the Budapest Opera. He says moments after he and his dad sat down the first time they saw the Great conductor, the orchestra started playing (The beginning of Lohengrin with the strings) he looked at his dad, who looked at him. The orchestra was familiar to them from a hundred performances but the sound they heard was entirely new. The strings had such a purity, transparency and power, that they were startled.
There is a film of Klemperer conducting the very same Beethoven fifth, he looks fairly young so it would be about the time of the Vox records. A giant of a man with horn rimmed spectacles who looks as if he is casting an incantation on the orchestra.
I know the Vox records are fairly crude in sound and hardly ideal. It's good to have your views on the differences between those and the earlier EMI records that are more familiar.
BB
Posted on: 15 May 2007 by Cheese
Good grief, Fredrik, slow down ! I must have done something dreadful to you in a past life, I deeply apologize for whatever it was.quote:Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
You write as if there is a definitive answer as to whether there really is a difference in qualitative greatness [etc.]
My post was merely a slightly off-topic (as you are sometimes too) occasion to talk about something Klemperer did well besides Beethoven, and I happen to have ordered HvK's disc a few days ago to see if there were things he did better than Klemperer.
Being not a native English speaker, I did not understand everything in your post, but I presume you want to tell me that there is no such thing as an absolute interpretation. Thank you very much Fredrik. On the other hand, when I like a work like the Deutsches Requiem, then I look for the best performance and this may well end up in a comparison between musicians. Where's the trouble here ?
Oh and by the way, when you write ...
quote:Karajan, though arguably at his finest at this time, was not nearly so remarkable a musician as Klemperer at his greatest.
... you will certainly agree that you can't tell me afterwards ...
quote:You write as if there is a definitive answer as to whether there really is a difference in qualitative greatness between the various artists
As far as I can read you just did (first quote) what you allege me to have done.
Now let's cool down and get back to music.
Posted on: 15 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear cheese,
I don't think that you did anything to me in a a past life.
If there is anything that you do not understand in my posts please let me know which part, and I can clarify it for you.
Yours sincerely, Fredrik
I don't think that you did anything to me in a a past life.
If there is anything that you do not understand in my posts please let me know which part, and I can clarify it for you.
Yours sincerely, Fredrik