Klemperer's Beethoven, New Issues!
Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 25 March 2007
Dear Friends,
I find a ramble round http://www.testament.co.uk/ is usually some what depressing. So much I would love to get, and so on!
Of special interest is a series of live Beethoven Symphony recordings from the Philharmonia [mainly in the Royal Festival Hall] including 1 to 5, and 7 and 8, issued for the first time. The Eroica comes in a performance with the Danish State Orchestra, presumably because it is finer than any of the Philharmonia readings.
This is in addition to two live recordings of his in the Choral Symphony and the Third, Fourth and Fifth Piano Concertos with Claudio Arraw already released. [Testamant also have royally served Solomon Cutner in the existing Sonata recordings - about half the series, before a series of strokes cut his career short -and his series of the Piano Concertos, as well as Concerti by Tchaikowsky, Bliss and so on...].
I think that though almost every recording of Furtwngler has long since been unearthed and published, the renewed interest in Klemperer's legacy quite probably has even more to offer those who really enjoy the works of Beethoven.
Also re-released is Klemperer's mid-sixties EMI reording of the Missa Solemnis, which was a problematic work for him, and yet in a fair proportion of the handful of performances he gave in his long career he obtained a phenomenal synthesis of the music, which he himself considered, "does not take account of reality in performance!" He was always deeply depressed about the way it went if it was not up to his own expectations. It seems he was satisfied with the studio recording. [There is a live recording done in 1960 Vienna with the Philharmonia, which is legendary but has only briefly made it to pubication, which is apparently spell-binding. Testamant? One day perhaps].
Another fascinating glimse of an older time is to be found as finally Testamant have released the recording done in the Royal Albert Hall of the World Premiere of R Stauss' Four Last Songs, with the Flagstad, The Philharmonia, and Furtwangler. The parts of the recording which survive, have been transfered to fill a CD. This might be priceless. The Songs are complete, and apparently in better condition than any pirate release so far... I post this up for others rather than my own consumption for all that.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
I find a ramble round http://www.testament.co.uk/ is usually some what depressing. So much I would love to get, and so on!
Of special interest is a series of live Beethoven Symphony recordings from the Philharmonia [mainly in the Royal Festival Hall] including 1 to 5, and 7 and 8, issued for the first time. The Eroica comes in a performance with the Danish State Orchestra, presumably because it is finer than any of the Philharmonia readings.
This is in addition to two live recordings of his in the Choral Symphony and the Third, Fourth and Fifth Piano Concertos with Claudio Arraw already released. [Testamant also have royally served Solomon Cutner in the existing Sonata recordings - about half the series, before a series of strokes cut his career short -and his series of the Piano Concertos, as well as Concerti by Tchaikowsky, Bliss and so on...].
I think that though almost every recording of Furtwngler has long since been unearthed and published, the renewed interest in Klemperer's legacy quite probably has even more to offer those who really enjoy the works of Beethoven.
Also re-released is Klemperer's mid-sixties EMI reording of the Missa Solemnis, which was a problematic work for him, and yet in a fair proportion of the handful of performances he gave in his long career he obtained a phenomenal synthesis of the music, which he himself considered, "does not take account of reality in performance!" He was always deeply depressed about the way it went if it was not up to his own expectations. It seems he was satisfied with the studio recording. [There is a live recording done in 1960 Vienna with the Philharmonia, which is legendary but has only briefly made it to pubication, which is apparently spell-binding. Testamant? One day perhaps].
Another fascinating glimse of an older time is to be found as finally Testamant have released the recording done in the Royal Albert Hall of the World Premiere of R Stauss' Four Last Songs, with the Flagstad, The Philharmonia, and Furtwangler. The parts of the recording which survive, have been transfered to fill a CD. This might be priceless. The Songs are complete, and apparently in better condition than any pirate release so far... I post this up for others rather than my own consumption for all that.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 16 May 2007 by Big Brother
quote:but not a breath of Romanticism is to be found
Fredrik
I think it's an important point that the terms Classical and Romantic are in themselves highly subjective. To call Furtwangler a 'Romantic' and Klemperer a 'Classicist' is to lose the point altogether. The terms objective and subjective might come closer to the mark but even there we must be careful.
Does Romanticism mean distorting the tempo relationships so that the piece's structure becomes amorphous and chaotic ? The goal of the first true 'Romantics' (i.e. Goethe) or was this more a question of feeling and subjectivism, i.e. Romantic in the sense that it is a unification of human emotions and the forces of nature, to which we associate Romanticism at its undiluted finest. For me, a classical approach does not preclude the latter. It is possible to be as moved by the ancient Greeks as by say...Emily Bronte. Let no one imagine that a recording by say the later Stravinsky, Klemperer, Toscanini wold yield anything in the way of emotional involvement to their Romantic counterparts.
Since you mentioned Adrian Boult in another thread, it is interesting to note that his musical icon was Aurtur Nikish. Has anyone heard that conductors recording of Beethoven's Fifth ? It is by turns highly eccentric and classically severe, not what we would expect from one who we have come to regard as an echt Romantic. Many would view Beethoven as the first Romantic, but your characterization of him as the last Classicist would be just as apt.
BB
Posted on: 16 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear BB,
I have the first movement only of the Premiere recording of The Fifth under Nikisch! It is extra-ordinary. Not at all what you would expect from the written words about his style. Boult regarded him as his idol, and studied his style by attending about twelve months worth of rehearsals in Leipzig.
I think that the most devastatingly emotional music I know comes from Bach, and that is surely a unification, as you mention it above, of human emotion and the force of Nature. Beethoven manages this as well in my view. In a way I think that the Opera "Fidelio" is the least operatic of all Operas, but in the Prisoners Chorus, I find a depth of human feeling that is unparalleled in any other opera I know. More like a Mass than an opera really, such is the intensity...
This music measn more than I can express to me.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
I have the first movement only of the Premiere recording of The Fifth under Nikisch! It is extra-ordinary. Not at all what you would expect from the written words about his style. Boult regarded him as his idol, and studied his style by attending about twelve months worth of rehearsals in Leipzig.
I think that the most devastatingly emotional music I know comes from Bach, and that is surely a unification, as you mention it above, of human emotion and the force of Nature. Beethoven manages this as well in my view. In a way I think that the Opera "Fidelio" is the least operatic of all Operas, but in the Prisoners Chorus, I find a depth of human feeling that is unparalleled in any other opera I know. More like a Mass than an opera really, such is the intensity...
This music measn more than I can express to me.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 25 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
This pertains to this Thread as much as the one I posted it to:
Originally posted by Fredrik Fiske, Fri 25 May 2007 22:21, in the "What Are You Listening To Now" Thread:
___________
Quotation: Originally posted by Tam:
I only know the EMI stereo recordings with the Philharmonia and, to be honest, I find them rather lacklustre. [On Klemperer's EMI Complete Stereo Beethoven Symphonic recordings with the Philharmonia, issued as an integral cycle of CDs].
regards, Tam. Quotation Ends.
___________
Fredrik Fiske replied:
Dear Tam,
That is, in my view, an unfortunate over-simplification. When this was last discussed, I pointed out that among Klemperer's stereo Beethoven recordings, perhaps the Fifth, and Seventh were, if not dull, certainly monumental. This might seem peculiar* because these two works are to be found much more compelling, incredibly viscerally powerful, readings in the slightly earlier Mono reordings for EMI. The Mono recording from these forces [and company] of the Eroica Symphony has yet to be eclipsed in my view.
Even these three symphonies' performances, better served by their earlier, mono takes, are hardly to be called lack-lustre however - in my humble opinion. Controversial perhaps, but not lack-lustre.
As for 1, 2 and 4, these are exemplary. The Pastoral has one eccentricity, and 8 and the Choral are tremendous. Many times I have I have warned against buying cycles. As a whole I have never found any orchestral cycle in any commercially issued set of Beethoven that is entirely satisfying, and strongly urge people to buy individual issues of the individual pieces. It is quite possible with Klemperer to make a complete Beethoven Symphonic Cycle that is wonderful, but that would involve buying recordings from more than one company, and also being happy to take a compilation of stereo and mono recordings in individual works. I imagine that my ideal cycle of Beethoven Symphonies, uniquely possible for me with Klemperer, will never happen commercially because of copyright and technical reasons. EMI, however will continue to release the stereo integral, which in my view does Klemperer's posthumous reputation no favours as it is uneven in its qualities in three [possibly four] of the Nine Symphonies, but of which in each case Klemperer left great alternative versions.
If anyone is interested, no doubt all will be made clear over the following months in my Thread on Klemperer's Beethoven!
* NB: though it may not be realised generally nowadays, Klemperer suffered from a Bi-polar illness, which meant that while his greatest work was trully inspired, on occasion no person could more displeased with the result than Klemperer himself. There are some harrowing comments on some of his own performances of the Missa Solemnis, and yet his studio recordings of this are both still available, and still not eclipsed.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
______________________________________
For continuity, I hope Tam will not be offended that I post his reply here, as it adds to things in a positive way in my view:
Posted Fri 25 May 2007 23:38; Tam wrote:
Dear Fredrik,
It is something of a simplification, however, I really didn't get on with the set at all. Even now, listening to the first, it just fails to engage me. Whether lacklustre is the best word, I don't know but it seemed to me to sum up how I felt, particularly about some of the lighter symphonies (such as the 1st, 4th) or the seventh which I do feel needs to be taken fairly swiftly. Of course, many of these symphonies respond wonderfully to a grander approach (especially works like the 3rd, 5th and 9th) but it didn't seem to be here - at least not in the manner of Jochum's LSO eroica and 9th or Furtwangler. I had particularly high hopes for the 8th after the emotionally draining experience Davis made of it (have read his was a cycle in the Klemperer mould), but again it did little for me. In honesty, if the set didn't contain the Barenboim concertos, I think I would part with it, which I very much enjoyed.
It's odd, as I find Klemperer's mono, live recording of Fidelio on Testament absolutely thrilling, so I had looked forward to these. And, no doubt, I shall explore some of the testament releases at some point.
As a rule, I agree with you that sets tend to have symphonies that work well and others that don't, but I still enjoy buying them as wholes. I would still maintain that there isn't a weak link in the Mackerras cycle (though most of the performances have been bettered elsewhere), I would say almost as much of the first Jochum cycle and I would think one could come fairly close cobbling together a Furtwangler one from various sources.
regards, Tam
__________________________________
Dear Tam,
On the issue of the Choral, it is monumental, but not slow like Furtwangler, whose tempi in the Andante/Adagio are so slow that it never fails to make the horn parts unplayable, and a brief inspecttion of the times [and a consideration of the appropriate repeats taken by Klemperer], will soon show that he is consistently faster even than Toscanini! I think Norrington is just a little faster, but not much - perhaps a minute in 65 odd ...
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Originally posted by Fredrik Fiske, Fri 25 May 2007 22:21, in the "What Are You Listening To Now" Thread:
___________
Quotation: Originally posted by Tam:
I only know the EMI stereo recordings with the Philharmonia and, to be honest, I find them rather lacklustre. [On Klemperer's EMI Complete Stereo Beethoven Symphonic recordings with the Philharmonia, issued as an integral cycle of CDs].
regards, Tam. Quotation Ends.
___________
Fredrik Fiske replied:
Dear Tam,
That is, in my view, an unfortunate over-simplification. When this was last discussed, I pointed out that among Klemperer's stereo Beethoven recordings, perhaps the Fifth, and Seventh were, if not dull, certainly monumental. This might seem peculiar* because these two works are to be found much more compelling, incredibly viscerally powerful, readings in the slightly earlier Mono reordings for EMI. The Mono recording from these forces [and company] of the Eroica Symphony has yet to be eclipsed in my view.
Even these three symphonies' performances, better served by their earlier, mono takes, are hardly to be called lack-lustre however - in my humble opinion. Controversial perhaps, but not lack-lustre.
As for 1, 2 and 4, these are exemplary. The Pastoral has one eccentricity, and 8 and the Choral are tremendous. Many times I have I have warned against buying cycles. As a whole I have never found any orchestral cycle in any commercially issued set of Beethoven that is entirely satisfying, and strongly urge people to buy individual issues of the individual pieces. It is quite possible with Klemperer to make a complete Beethoven Symphonic Cycle that is wonderful, but that would involve buying recordings from more than one company, and also being happy to take a compilation of stereo and mono recordings in individual works. I imagine that my ideal cycle of Beethoven Symphonies, uniquely possible for me with Klemperer, will never happen commercially because of copyright and technical reasons. EMI, however will continue to release the stereo integral, which in my view does Klemperer's posthumous reputation no favours as it is uneven in its qualities in three [possibly four] of the Nine Symphonies, but of which in each case Klemperer left great alternative versions.
If anyone is interested, no doubt all will be made clear over the following months in my Thread on Klemperer's Beethoven!
* NB: though it may not be realised generally nowadays, Klemperer suffered from a Bi-polar illness, which meant that while his greatest work was trully inspired, on occasion no person could more displeased with the result than Klemperer himself. There are some harrowing comments on some of his own performances of the Missa Solemnis, and yet his studio recordings of this are both still available, and still not eclipsed.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
______________________________________
For continuity, I hope Tam will not be offended that I post his reply here, as it adds to things in a positive way in my view:
Posted Fri 25 May 2007 23:38; Tam wrote:
Dear Fredrik,
It is something of a simplification, however, I really didn't get on with the set at all. Even now, listening to the first, it just fails to engage me. Whether lacklustre is the best word, I don't know but it seemed to me to sum up how I felt, particularly about some of the lighter symphonies (such as the 1st, 4th) or the seventh which I do feel needs to be taken fairly swiftly. Of course, many of these symphonies respond wonderfully to a grander approach (especially works like the 3rd, 5th and 9th) but it didn't seem to be here - at least not in the manner of Jochum's LSO eroica and 9th or Furtwangler. I had particularly high hopes for the 8th after the emotionally draining experience Davis made of it (have read his was a cycle in the Klemperer mould), but again it did little for me. In honesty, if the set didn't contain the Barenboim concertos, I think I would part with it, which I very much enjoyed.
It's odd, as I find Klemperer's mono, live recording of Fidelio on Testament absolutely thrilling, so I had looked forward to these. And, no doubt, I shall explore some of the testament releases at some point.
As a rule, I agree with you that sets tend to have symphonies that work well and others that don't, but I still enjoy buying them as wholes. I would still maintain that there isn't a weak link in the Mackerras cycle (though most of the performances have been bettered elsewhere), I would say almost as much of the first Jochum cycle and I would think one could come fairly close cobbling together a Furtwangler one from various sources.
regards, Tam
__________________________________
Dear Tam,
On the issue of the Choral, it is monumental, but not slow like Furtwangler, whose tempi in the Andante/Adagio are so slow that it never fails to make the horn parts unplayable, and a brief inspecttion of the times [and a consideration of the appropriate repeats taken by Klemperer], will soon show that he is consistently faster even than Toscanini! I think Norrington is just a little faster, but not much - perhaps a minute in 65 odd ...
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 25 May 2007 by Tam
Dear Fredrik,
I'm just curious if we're talking about the same recordings - the choral on my set runs to about 72 minutes (as against 61 with Mackerras, 75ish for Furtwangler and even more for Bernstein in his last reading). Of course, comparing just timings can always be a little misleading.
regards, Tam
I'm just curious if we're talking about the same recordings - the choral on my set runs to about 72 minutes (as against 61 with Mackerras, 75ish for Furtwangler and even more for Bernstein in his last reading). Of course, comparing just timings can always be a little misleading.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 25 May 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,
Good point to clear up. Yes, the studio set from Autumn 1957 in Stereo, which was released in the EMI cycle on LPs in 1971 [first stereo release on full price HMV, having been issued in Mono 12 years earlier on English Columbia], and also all subsequent EMI CD re-issues. Testamant released the live sets. I think you will find that with Klemperer in the three [Philharmonia] recordings the Scherzo has every repeat shown and takes 14 minutes, while Furtwangler at a slower tempo and without all the sonata form repeats takes about 12 minutes. If one scaled up the Furtwangler it would be nearly 17 minutes long as I remember it from marking the score up many years ago now! The most startling statistic is the Slow "Andante/Adagio" Movement, to which Klemperer brings splendid emotional thrust combined a tenderness which is entirely appropriate, and poise [as well as architectural cogency by observing Beethoven's metronome markings, which are crucial to get the two different tempi to relate] and is taken in about 14 minutes as compared to Furtwangler taking between 19 to 22 minutes long in various performances.
The Finale in much the same time duration between Klemperer and Furtwangler, and also Toscanini, but Klemperer's way welds the set of Variations into one Arc, without any sense of it being constructed in episodic fashion. The most incredible build up of power is to be found in the section begining with the Turkish March leading through the subsequent orchestral fugue and into the related chorus, joined by the bridge passage of paired repeated notes on the Horn. Taken as marked at one [quite fast] tempo, there comes a massive release in terms of the strength and sheer joy of that chorus after the extra-ordinarily build-up through the preceding minutes.
In the First movement Klemperer, again provides a clear and classical view, and rather fast basic tempo, which is only obviously fast when one puts on a recording by Toscanini or Furtwangler afterwards, so aptly judged is the basic chosen tempo. Like the slow movement, this defies the legend, and is the most compelling in the 1961 Testamant RFH set! All three have incredible forward momentum, which characterises the forbidding, even terrifying resonance of the music culminating in a coda of quite catastrophic emotional doubt as the basses slide their chromatic line up and down under the torment in the strings and timpani above! The storm in the Pastoral is merely an April Shower comapred to this - a "cosmic clash" if ever there was one in music!
The two live RFH Phiharmonia recordings are currently both issued Testament, released in recent times - one from the same week as the studio album [same soloists], and the other from 1961 [the best of all] - where the spur of live performance is palpable and which I would persoanlly consider as the two most wonderful performances of this music I have encountered.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Good point to clear up. Yes, the studio set from Autumn 1957 in Stereo, which was released in the EMI cycle on LPs in 1971 [first stereo release on full price HMV, having been issued in Mono 12 years earlier on English Columbia], and also all subsequent EMI CD re-issues. Testamant released the live sets. I think you will find that with Klemperer in the three [Philharmonia] recordings the Scherzo has every repeat shown and takes 14 minutes, while Furtwangler at a slower tempo and without all the sonata form repeats takes about 12 minutes. If one scaled up the Furtwangler it would be nearly 17 minutes long as I remember it from marking the score up many years ago now! The most startling statistic is the Slow "Andante/Adagio" Movement, to which Klemperer brings splendid emotional thrust combined a tenderness which is entirely appropriate, and poise [as well as architectural cogency by observing Beethoven's metronome markings, which are crucial to get the two different tempi to relate] and is taken in about 14 minutes as compared to Furtwangler taking between 19 to 22 minutes long in various performances.
The Finale in much the same time duration between Klemperer and Furtwangler, and also Toscanini, but Klemperer's way welds the set of Variations into one Arc, without any sense of it being constructed in episodic fashion. The most incredible build up of power is to be found in the section begining with the Turkish March leading through the subsequent orchestral fugue and into the related chorus, joined by the bridge passage of paired repeated notes on the Horn. Taken as marked at one [quite fast] tempo, there comes a massive release in terms of the strength and sheer joy of that chorus after the extra-ordinarily build-up through the preceding minutes.
In the First movement Klemperer, again provides a clear and classical view, and rather fast basic tempo, which is only obviously fast when one puts on a recording by Toscanini or Furtwangler afterwards, so aptly judged is the basic chosen tempo. Like the slow movement, this defies the legend, and is the most compelling in the 1961 Testamant RFH set! All three have incredible forward momentum, which characterises the forbidding, even terrifying resonance of the music culminating in a coda of quite catastrophic emotional doubt as the basses slide their chromatic line up and down under the torment in the strings and timpani above! The storm in the Pastoral is merely an April Shower comapred to this - a "cosmic clash" if ever there was one in music!
The two live RFH Phiharmonia recordings are currently both issued Testament, released in recent times - one from the same week as the studio album [same soloists], and the other from 1961 [the best of all] - where the spur of live performance is palpable and which I would persoanlly consider as the two most wonderful performances of this music I have encountered.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 03 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
I have listened to the live recorded concert of the Choral under Klemperer at the Royal Festival Hall from the 27th November 1961 this evening! Extra-ordinarily fine.
Though I have now looked out my metronome I have yet to get to my score which is boxed away. Then I will be able to post on the issue of the actual tempi with regard to Beethoven's [sometimes controversial] metronome markings, but one thing is for sure: this is not slow!
The playing conveys something verging on desperation of spirit in the first movement such is the probing nature of the music making. This is a long way from comfortable, or smooth music making. Rarely have I actually noted the Philharmonia bass section to rattle their finger boards with their projection other than here! Overal I would say that it is by some distance my favourite reading on records [CD, sorry], and at 68 minutes including applause, easily the fastest performance that I have found that is not driven at the music's expense! Also to be born in mind is that Scherzo contains all the marked repeats, which even today is not always the case. Thus it is longer in time duration by two minutes [much longer of course in bars played] than the slow movement!
This is a great antidote to the notion that Klemeprer was a slow conductor. The slowness would sadly come in some later performance over the next decade, and seems to coincide with something of a loss of grip in his extreme old age, though by no means on every occasion. The old fires could still burn brightly even later on, such as the great Missa Solemnis recording done for EMI.
For those not aquainted with the performance, may I heartily recomend it: Testament 1332. A recording held by the British Libraray, such is its significance. It is from the same time as the performances of Fidelio at Covent Garden, when something of a legend started about Klemperer's style. The general Manager wrote to Klemperer that "We have conquered the House!" I know a member of the Orchestra and have a few tales about how Klemperer got on with Opera House orchestra rather than his regular band - the Philharmonia - and it was not all sweetness and light at the rehearsals, but the results speak for themselves even now, and audable on the recent testament first issue of that rather wonderful occasion. I wish the CDs themselves were not verging on full price!!
I shall be getting the other new issues next week, and hope they live up the standard of this.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Though I have now looked out my metronome I have yet to get to my score which is boxed away. Then I will be able to post on the issue of the actual tempi with regard to Beethoven's [sometimes controversial] metronome markings, but one thing is for sure: this is not slow!
The playing conveys something verging on desperation of spirit in the first movement such is the probing nature of the music making. This is a long way from comfortable, or smooth music making. Rarely have I actually noted the Philharmonia bass section to rattle their finger boards with their projection other than here! Overal I would say that it is by some distance my favourite reading on records [CD, sorry], and at 68 minutes including applause, easily the fastest performance that I have found that is not driven at the music's expense! Also to be born in mind is that Scherzo contains all the marked repeats, which even today is not always the case. Thus it is longer in time duration by two minutes [much longer of course in bars played] than the slow movement!
This is a great antidote to the notion that Klemeprer was a slow conductor. The slowness would sadly come in some later performance over the next decade, and seems to coincide with something of a loss of grip in his extreme old age, though by no means on every occasion. The old fires could still burn brightly even later on, such as the great Missa Solemnis recording done for EMI.
For those not aquainted with the performance, may I heartily recomend it: Testament 1332. A recording held by the British Libraray, such is its significance. It is from the same time as the performances of Fidelio at Covent Garden, when something of a legend started about Klemperer's style. The general Manager wrote to Klemperer that "We have conquered the House!" I know a member of the Orchestra and have a few tales about how Klemperer got on with Opera House orchestra rather than his regular band - the Philharmonia - and it was not all sweetness and light at the rehearsals, but the results speak for themselves even now, and audable on the recent testament first issue of that rather wonderful occasion. I wish the CDs themselves were not verging on full price!!
I shall be getting the other new issues next week, and hope they live up the standard of this.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 05 July 2007 by Steve S1
Hi Munch,
Not that it's a shortcut to Fredrik's or Tam's knowledge but you can do worse than pick up a full Penguin guide to classical CDs. W.H Smiths or Amazon.
I learnt a lot through following up recommendations and comparing versions - you soon learn which reviewers favour your preferred styles and interpretations. There's no magic formula just a bit of learning and a lot of listening to do.
And of course, you never stop learning. You get to understand why well regarded interpretations might not be to your own taste. Alternatively, you may come across versions that you prefer and they don't even feature as a qualified recommendation. Solti's Mahler 2 is an example of this for me.
In Beethoven Symphonies for example, some people love Klemperer. I find his later versions eccentrically slow (with one or two exceptions). But I've listened to them, enjoyed finding out and moved them on.
On the other hand I like the intensity and pace that Toscanini often produces - others find it hurried and lacking stature. You never know how you will react but it's fun finding out.
Steve
Not that it's a shortcut to Fredrik's or Tam's knowledge but you can do worse than pick up a full Penguin guide to classical CDs. W.H Smiths or Amazon.
I learnt a lot through following up recommendations and comparing versions - you soon learn which reviewers favour your preferred styles and interpretations. There's no magic formula just a bit of learning and a lot of listening to do.
And of course, you never stop learning. You get to understand why well regarded interpretations might not be to your own taste. Alternatively, you may come across versions that you prefer and they don't even feature as a qualified recommendation. Solti's Mahler 2 is an example of this for me.
In Beethoven Symphonies for example, some people love Klemperer. I find his later versions eccentrically slow (with one or two exceptions). But I've listened to them, enjoyed finding out and moved them on.
On the other hand I like the intensity and pace that Toscanini often produces - others find it hurried and lacking stature. You never know how you will react but it's fun finding out.
Steve
Posted on: 25 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
For BB Dan to have alook at, if interested... Fredrik
Posted on: 26 July 2007 by bad boy dan
quote:Originally posted by graham55:
Tam, the EMI box of symphonies and piano concertos show a conductor well past his best.
But Klemperer was able to go on to great things in his last years: his Flying Dutchman is extraordinary!
The jury will always be out over Erich vs Carlos, but I just wanted to point out that there was a far greater Beethoven interpreter than Klemperer working in the studio in the early Fifties. Fredrik won't agree, of course!
How can you come to that conclusion,you talk as though its a competition,i borrowed a Kleiber recording of the 5th,can't remember which one and much prefered the Klemperer,so what.
This comes back to my disagreement with Fredrik over Glenn Gould,you can say that one musician has better technique than another,but a better musician,i think not.
Lots of love BB
Posted on: 26 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Dan,
I can see that we shall be getting on fine from now on! I must emphasis that none of the quotation above was originally by me!
In our recent discussion I actually worked something new out about performers whose work I do not enjoy, and I shall modify my way of expressing it from now on! That will please you, Dan.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
I can see that we shall be getting on fine from now on! I must emphasis that none of the quotation above was originally by me!
In our recent discussion I actually worked something new out about performers whose work I do not enjoy, and I shall modify my way of expressing it from now on! That will please you, Dan.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 26 July 2007 by bad boy dan
Dear Fredrik,
Perhaps Graham could explain how Kleiber is greater(better)than Klemperer?
For me a musician can touch my soul on a one to one basis,i dont care or am influenced by anyone else's opinion,i think if you do not enjoy it Fredrik, its not worth expressing.
However when i read your musings on artists that move you on a one to one basis,i am all ears.
Lots of love BB
Perhaps Graham could explain how Kleiber is greater(better)than Klemperer?
For me a musician can touch my soul on a one to one basis,i dont care or am influenced by anyone else's opinion,i think if you do not enjoy it Fredrik, its not worth expressing.
However when i read your musings on artists that move you on a one to one basis,i am all ears.
Lots of love BB
Posted on: 27 July 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Dan,
I try to avoid being negative. I absolutely guarantee it from now on.
Otto Klemperer was my first musical hero after Beethoven as a ten year old. By the age of thirteen I had all nine symphonies from him is the same recordings currently issued in the EMI boxed CD set. There are very fine. Still my benchmark actually.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
I try to avoid being negative. I absolutely guarantee it from now on.
Otto Klemperer was my first musical hero after Beethoven as a ten year old. By the age of thirteen I had all nine symphonies from him is the same recordings currently issued in the EMI boxed CD set. There are very fine. Still my benchmark actually.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 27 July 2007 by bad boy dan
Dear Fredrik,
There used to be a Classical record shop in Needless Alley in Birmingham called Vincents,run by a couple of boffins,eccentric and wonderfull.
It was one of them that recomended the EMI stereo version as the one to go for and i was glad he did.
Ironicaly i got into Glenn Gould as i wanted to listen to some Bach on the Harpschord (my first experience of Bach was Julian Bream)by ignorance.
It was Wednesday Vincents was closed so i could not ask the expert,so i went into Rackhams and browsed the Bach section and came across a boxed set of TWTC by GG on Klavier,i did not know this meant piano,he looked very intense on the cover so i bought it.
Got home popped the stylus in the groove 1st prelude(now this says something about his tone)and i was not sure,was it a Harpsichord or Piano,by the second prelude i did not care i was hooked and still am,it was though he had made the recording just for me.
I am glad i did not rely on the expert that day
Lots of Love BB
There used to be a Classical record shop in Needless Alley in Birmingham called Vincents,run by a couple of boffins,eccentric and wonderfull.
It was one of them that recomended the EMI stereo version as the one to go for and i was glad he did.
Ironicaly i got into Glenn Gould as i wanted to listen to some Bach on the Harpschord (my first experience of Bach was Julian Bream)by ignorance.
It was Wednesday Vincents was closed so i could not ask the expert,so i went into Rackhams and browsed the Bach section and came across a boxed set of TWTC by GG on Klavier,i did not know this meant piano,he looked very intense on the cover so i bought it.
Got home popped the stylus in the groove 1st prelude(now this says something about his tone)and i was not sure,was it a Harpsichord or Piano,by the second prelude i did not care i was hooked and still am,it was though he had made the recording just for me.
I am glad i did not rely on the expert that day
Lots of Love BB
Posted on: 29 July 2007 by Unstoppable
I would agree that Klemperer's 'dog tag' as a Beethoven specialist, though earned and apt, did not do full justice to his talents.
To wit: Dvoraks' New World, Handels' Messiah, Wagners' The Flying Dutchman, Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, Mendelssohn's Music to A Midsummer Nights Dream, Brahms German Requiem and my personal favorite, a brilliant rendition of Frank D minor Symphony that rescues this piece from the ranks as a tawdry orchestral showpiece.
To be avoided is K's Missa Solemmnis (EMI), the work is taken at a tempo so slow that it renders it all but unrecognizable, in my opinion at least.
Stellar thread and very interesting comments by all.
Regards
To wit: Dvoraks' New World, Handels' Messiah, Wagners' The Flying Dutchman, Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, Mendelssohn's Music to A Midsummer Nights Dream, Brahms German Requiem and my personal favorite, a brilliant rendition of Frank D minor Symphony that rescues this piece from the ranks as a tawdry orchestral showpiece.
To be avoided is K's Missa Solemmnis (EMI), the work is taken at a tempo so slow that it renders it all but unrecognizable, in my opinion at least.
Stellar thread and very interesting comments by all.
Regards
Posted on: 09 September 2007 by u5227470736789439
Saving this from the timing out axe, as I now have respectable gramophone again, and will kick of getting some of the Testamant issues as soon as the finance allows...
ATB from George
ATB from George
Posted on: 06 October 2007 by Gerontius' Dream
And do not ignore Klemperer's Brahms, Bruckner and Mahler. His Bruckner 5 and 7 and 9 are outstanding (IMHO) and the sixth is one of the few recordings which (again for me) make sense of this enigmatic work.
His Mahler 2 and 9, and Das Lied von der Erde, are still among the best available, and likewise the fourth, although I know that some people hate that version. (I am talking about the 60s recordings by EMI)
As for the Brahms symphonies, recorded in the late fifties, again for EMI, they are all superb, especially the second. And the German Requiem... something extra special.
His Mahler 2 and 9, and Das Lied von der Erde, are still among the best available, and likewise the fourth, although I know that some people hate that version. (I am talking about the 60s recordings by EMI)
As for the Brahms symphonies, recorded in the late fifties, again for EMI, they are all superb, especially the second. And the German Requiem... something extra special.
Posted on: 06 October 2007 by Cheese
Therefore I might like just that version after 20 years of fruitless attempts to listen to it until the end at least once. Thanks ;-)quote:Originally posted by Unstoppable:
To be avoided is K's Missa Solemmnis (EMI), the work is taken at a tempo so slow that it renders it all but unrecognizable
Posted on: 06 October 2007 by Tam
You may care to try Giulini's account with the Philharmonia on BBC Legends. Some may find it a little sluggish (and it would have been better recorded somewhere other than St Paul's Cathedral) but I'm very fond of it.
What I've heard of Klemperer's Mahler I've liked very much - a wonderful live recording of the second with Kathleen Ferrier and the Concertgebouw.
regards, Tam
What I've heard of Klemperer's Mahler I've liked very much - a wonderful live recording of the second with Kathleen Ferrier and the Concertgebouw.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 06 October 2007 by Earwicker
quote:Originally posted by munch:
How many recordings of one bit of music can you have?
I've got seven complete recordings of the Beethoven symphonies, and countless miscellaneous installments. I've got five recordings of the Missa solemnis, and four complete recordings of the string quartets, plus another five partially complete. Five sets of the piano sonatas ... if you count the Gilels as complete (which it isn't but still - it deserves to be counted as three sets for how good it is!)...
The more the merrier I say. As Schnabel has observed, great music is better than it can be played!
EW
Posted on: 07 October 2007 by Tam
quote:Originally posted by munch:
How many recordings of one bit of music can you have?
Well, I have 18 complete sets of Beethoven symphonies (I used to own a 19th but let it go, and at some point I'm going to prune down the ones I have) and then assorted other recordings. A quick count indicates that the 5th and 7th are the most prominent with 6 and 8 recordings respectively, so 25 would seem to be the answer to your question.
Mahler is next well represented with 13 surveys (though not all of them quite complete - Barbirolli never recorded the 8th, Haitink missed it and the 6th from his live cycle, Walter didn't record everything) as well as assorted other recordings. The 6th is probably best represented with 21 recordings.
I have too many of Wagner's Ring cycles - 11 and a half of them. 10 surveys of the Brahms symphonies (and one or two other assorted recordings). In contrast Sibelius is quite restrained with just 8 (and a couple of others of individual symphonies), but I have got rid of at least two sets in the last year or so.
However, arguably the most obsessive area of my library is Verdi's requiem. I only have 5 recordings (well, 6 if you count the Bernstein which is on its way to a charity shop when I get around to it) but 4 or them are all conducted by Carlo Maria Giulini and one of those 4 I have on both CD and DVD.
What's the point of having so many? Well, in music this great no single artist is going to show you everything that's there. It's true that there are sets and recordings I could probably prune from most of those lists, but I've only really done that with the Sibelius since I have in mind writing threads on both the Mahler and Beethoven symphonies.
Interestingly, even Giulini's 4 Verdi requiem are all very different (which is why I can justify having 4).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 07 October 2007 by pe-zulu
quote:Originally posted by Tam:quote:Originally posted by munch:
How many recordings of one bit of music can you have?
What's the point of having so many? Well, in music this great no single artist is going to show you everything that's there.
Nail on head Tam, and the fact that strong love to individual works is instrumental in prompting us to collect multiple recordings of the works in question. The thrick is to avoid overspecialization. I on my part have got a rather comprehensive taste, even if the high-romantic and the modern periods doesn´t interest me that much. A question of temperament without doubt.
Posted on: 08 October 2007 by Gerontius' Dream
To return to the original topic, I found it very interesting that Radio 3's CD Review of Sat 6 Oct assessed the currently available recordings of Beethoven's Fifth, and ended up recommending Carlos Kleiber as the best with Otto Klemperer's 1955 version the runner-up. One quarter of a century old, the other half a century.
There must be a moral here. It has been my view for a while that so many modern interpretations of Beethoven focus on the revolutionary, "demonic" aspect of his music, employing such fast tempi that his music is robbed of its grandeur. That is not to say that there is no place for such performances (Beethoven can withstand almost anything) but in my opinion they do tend to fall into the "interesting" category.
(The other categories of performance are "moving" and "boring")
There must be a moral here. It has been my view for a while that so many modern interpretations of Beethoven focus on the revolutionary, "demonic" aspect of his music, employing such fast tempi that his music is robbed of its grandeur. That is not to say that there is no place for such performances (Beethoven can withstand almost anything) but in my opinion they do tend to fall into the "interesting" category.
(The other categories of performance are "moving" and "boring")
Posted on: 08 October 2007 by Tam
I'm not sure recordings can be pigeonholed quite so neatly as that.
The CD Review segment was fairly interesting (though I feel it would be better if they didn't insist on finding one winner, something of an impossible task with a work like Beethoven's 5th symphony, in my view). And to the extent they do that, I'm not sure Johnson proved the case for Kleiber (much though I adore the recording).
Actually, neither of my personal favourites had a look in - Solti's thrilling Chicago reading and Barenboim's West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, who play it with as much passion as I've ever heard.
There is some quite interesting discussion of the Kleiber on the Radio 3 messageboards, centring around an editing flaw in the transition to the finale which I must confess has never jumped out at me before, I'm meaning to listen again as perhaps it will now.
I disagree with you about modern performances, though it's true that some are probably characterised by your comments (I'd have in mind the likes of Norrington or Zinman), but it isn't essential. The Mackerras/SCO reading from last summer's Edinburgh festival (and now available on Hyperion) is no slouch but has no shortage of grandeur. Even more so is Colin Davis, whose Dresden performances are wonderful (and firmly in the Klempererian mould) as is his recent Fidelio on LSO Live.
regards, Tam
The CD Review segment was fairly interesting (though I feel it would be better if they didn't insist on finding one winner, something of an impossible task with a work like Beethoven's 5th symphony, in my view). And to the extent they do that, I'm not sure Johnson proved the case for Kleiber (much though I adore the recording).
Actually, neither of my personal favourites had a look in - Solti's thrilling Chicago reading and Barenboim's West-Eastern Divan Orchestra, who play it with as much passion as I've ever heard.
There is some quite interesting discussion of the Kleiber on the Radio 3 messageboards, centring around an editing flaw in the transition to the finale which I must confess has never jumped out at me before, I'm meaning to listen again as perhaps it will now.
I disagree with you about modern performances, though it's true that some are probably characterised by your comments (I'd have in mind the likes of Norrington or Zinman), but it isn't essential. The Mackerras/SCO reading from last summer's Edinburgh festival (and now available on Hyperion) is no slouch but has no shortage of grandeur. Even more so is Colin Davis, whose Dresden performances are wonderful (and firmly in the Klempererian mould) as is his recent Fidelio on LSO Live.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 08 October 2007 by u5227470736789439
Dear Dai, and Tam,
Somehwere in the archive here is a long discussion on one or two flaws in the Carlos Kleiber recording [posted about by me], which since it was a studio effort should not have been left in, and which for me leave the flawless [except for it being mono] Klemperer recording as in equal first with Erich Kleiber's recording from 1954!
It is all subjective. Others would prefer the Karajan reading of different vintages, the Furtwangler reading etc. I have a very soft spot for Bruno Walter's CBS reading from about 1960 as well! Carl Boehm with the VPO is not half bad either!!!
I find I dig out the 52 year old Klemperer EMI performance most often though. The orchestra simply is the most wonderful old English style playing captured in almost modern sound. I like shortly afterwards to play the other great Klemperer recording, done for Vox in Vienna a few years earlier [VSO], where the recording is hardly as fine, but the reading is every bit as flowing, dramatic, and full of life! Notable that for a conductor noted for his legendary slow tempi this was one of the few recordings that fitted on one side of an LP at the time! Only in extreme old age were Kleperer's choice of tempi on the slow or very slow side. Even his Missa Solemnis recording from 1965 is several minutes less long than the contempoary Karajan or later Boehm recordings! This myth of Klemperer being a habitually slow conductor needs destroying!
His 1950 Vox recording of the Missa is almost five minutes shorter than the notoriously fast performance from the same period under Toscanini, and yet, there is no sense of the rushing found in the Toscanini version, though the recording being quite rough enough to upset some with out doubt!
ATB from George
Somehwere in the archive here is a long discussion on one or two flaws in the Carlos Kleiber recording [posted about by me], which since it was a studio effort should not have been left in, and which for me leave the flawless [except for it being mono] Klemperer recording as in equal first with Erich Kleiber's recording from 1954!
It is all subjective. Others would prefer the Karajan reading of different vintages, the Furtwangler reading etc. I have a very soft spot for Bruno Walter's CBS reading from about 1960 as well! Carl Boehm with the VPO is not half bad either!!!
I find I dig out the 52 year old Klemperer EMI performance most often though. The orchestra simply is the most wonderful old English style playing captured in almost modern sound. I like shortly afterwards to play the other great Klemperer recording, done for Vox in Vienna a few years earlier [VSO], where the recording is hardly as fine, but the reading is every bit as flowing, dramatic, and full of life! Notable that for a conductor noted for his legendary slow tempi this was one of the few recordings that fitted on one side of an LP at the time! Only in extreme old age were Kleperer's choice of tempi on the slow or very slow side. Even his Missa Solemnis recording from 1965 is several minutes less long than the contempoary Karajan or later Boehm recordings! This myth of Klemperer being a habitually slow conductor needs destroying!
His 1950 Vox recording of the Missa is almost five minutes shorter than the notoriously fast performance from the same period under Toscanini, and yet, there is no sense of the rushing found in the Toscanini version, though the recording being quite rough enough to upset some with out doubt!
ATB from George
Posted on: 09 October 2007 by Gerontius' Dream
Anyone who still thinks that Klemperer's tempi were always slow ought to listen to his recording of Mozart's "little" G minor symphony, K183, of 1957. The first and last movements are breathtakingly fast.
I did not intend to give the impression that I thought all modern performances of Beethoven lacked grandeur, but many do - such as those by the conductors mentioned by Tam!
I did not intend to give the impression that I thought all modern performances of Beethoven lacked grandeur, but many do - such as those by the conductors mentioned by Tam!