Klemperer's Beethoven, New Issues!
Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 25 March 2007
Dear Friends,
I find a ramble round http://www.testament.co.uk/ is usually some what depressing. So much I would love to get, and so on!
Of special interest is a series of live Beethoven Symphony recordings from the Philharmonia [mainly in the Royal Festival Hall] including 1 to 5, and 7 and 8, issued for the first time. The Eroica comes in a performance with the Danish State Orchestra, presumably because it is finer than any of the Philharmonia readings.
This is in addition to two live recordings of his in the Choral Symphony and the Third, Fourth and Fifth Piano Concertos with Claudio Arraw already released. [Testamant also have royally served Solomon Cutner in the existing Sonata recordings - about half the series, before a series of strokes cut his career short -and his series of the Piano Concertos, as well as Concerti by Tchaikowsky, Bliss and so on...].
I think that though almost every recording of Furtwngler has long since been unearthed and published, the renewed interest in Klemperer's legacy quite probably has even more to offer those who really enjoy the works of Beethoven.
Also re-released is Klemperer's mid-sixties EMI reording of the Missa Solemnis, which was a problematic work for him, and yet in a fair proportion of the handful of performances he gave in his long career he obtained a phenomenal synthesis of the music, which he himself considered, "does not take account of reality in performance!" He was always deeply depressed about the way it went if it was not up to his own expectations. It seems he was satisfied with the studio recording. [There is a live recording done in 1960 Vienna with the Philharmonia, which is legendary but has only briefly made it to pubication, which is apparently spell-binding. Testamant? One day perhaps].
Another fascinating glimse of an older time is to be found as finally Testamant have released the recording done in the Royal Albert Hall of the World Premiere of R Stauss' Four Last Songs, with the Flagstad, The Philharmonia, and Furtwangler. The parts of the recording which survive, have been transfered to fill a CD. This might be priceless. The Songs are complete, and apparently in better condition than any pirate release so far... I post this up for others rather than my own consumption for all that.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
I find a ramble round http://www.testament.co.uk/ is usually some what depressing. So much I would love to get, and so on!
Of special interest is a series of live Beethoven Symphony recordings from the Philharmonia [mainly in the Royal Festival Hall] including 1 to 5, and 7 and 8, issued for the first time. The Eroica comes in a performance with the Danish State Orchestra, presumably because it is finer than any of the Philharmonia readings.
This is in addition to two live recordings of his in the Choral Symphony and the Third, Fourth and Fifth Piano Concertos with Claudio Arraw already released. [Testamant also have royally served Solomon Cutner in the existing Sonata recordings - about half the series, before a series of strokes cut his career short -and his series of the Piano Concertos, as well as Concerti by Tchaikowsky, Bliss and so on...].
I think that though almost every recording of Furtwngler has long since been unearthed and published, the renewed interest in Klemperer's legacy quite probably has even more to offer those who really enjoy the works of Beethoven.
Also re-released is Klemperer's mid-sixties EMI reording of the Missa Solemnis, which was a problematic work for him, and yet in a fair proportion of the handful of performances he gave in his long career he obtained a phenomenal synthesis of the music, which he himself considered, "does not take account of reality in performance!" He was always deeply depressed about the way it went if it was not up to his own expectations. It seems he was satisfied with the studio recording. [There is a live recording done in 1960 Vienna with the Philharmonia, which is legendary but has only briefly made it to pubication, which is apparently spell-binding. Testamant? One day perhaps].
Another fascinating glimse of an older time is to be found as finally Testamant have released the recording done in the Royal Albert Hall of the World Premiere of R Stauss' Four Last Songs, with the Flagstad, The Philharmonia, and Furtwangler. The parts of the recording which survive, have been transfered to fill a CD. This might be priceless. The Songs are complete, and apparently in better condition than any pirate release so far... I post this up for others rather than my own consumption for all that.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 28 April 2008 by u5227470736789439
This weekend I managed to get hold of the legendary recording taken from a performance in Klemperer's 1961 Royal Opera House, Covent Garden production of Beethoven's Fidelio.
This is not so easily described in a post of reasonable length, but I shall try to distil it a bit. It does not live up to the expectation some might have as slow, or dull traversal!
It is generally on the quick side, sometimes faster than one might have thought possible. Tempi are cast in logical though not always traditional relationships. But it seems the soloist singers found themselves so well accompanied that the each play their part with success, amid a firm and structured framework which only heightens the emotional grip of the work.
George
This is not so easily described in a post of reasonable length, but I shall try to distil it a bit. It does not live up to the expectation some might have as slow, or dull traversal!
It is generally on the quick side, sometimes faster than one might have thought possible. Tempi are cast in logical though not always traditional relationships. But it seems the soloist singers found themselves so well accompanied that the each play their part with success, amid a firm and structured framework which only heightens the emotional grip of the work.
George
Posted on: 05 May 2008 by u5227470736789439
This has been a very difficult recording to describe, because it is one where you listen and wonder how it could musically go any differently!
The cast of singer are simply superb, and no one is going to say that everyone is fine except for X who was clearly having a poor day. They work together and are supported wonderfully from the orchestra.
I had the LPs of Klemperer's EMI studio recording, and I found that hard work. It was more than worthy, but as can happen with studio recordings made over extended periods, there no inevitability to the flow, and a sort of worthy ruggedness replaced to brilliance and fire in the unedited live recording.
My next set of Fidelio was led by Furtwängler, live at Salzburg, with a Stella international cast and the VPO with the State Opera Chorus, in a Radio taping. This had the same conviction of a wonderful live event captured on the wind, but Klemperer has a few advantages. Firstly the BBC recording from 1961 is very much finer than the Austrian Red-White-Red Radio recording, and Klemperer has a much firmer grip on the rhythm and articulation of the piece.
The structural strength of Klemperer's reading produces some unexpected tempi [and tempi relationships], which only seem unusual once one gets to the end! As I said, during the performance there is an inevitable rightness to it.
In the old style, now criticised, the Finale Scene is preceded by a powerful and propulsive performance of the Third Leonora Overture [as it was in the Furtwängler set] but for once the Finale does not come out as a sort Post Script, but rather a telling of the "Happy Ending!" I have never encountered that before. Indeed, I think it may be a weakness of the Opera, that the Finale does indeed seem hardly necessary after Leonora has found her man again. Somehow, Klemperer keeps that seem of joy going right to the end.
So this is a performance that may be seen as extra-ordinary, and presented in at least respectable sonics [mono of course for the BBC in 1961] but certainly one to run beside any of the estimable studio recordings as an appendix!
For me it goes straight to the top of the list, and tempts me to once again get the Klemperer studio performance. I may see more sense in it now, regarding that as the appendix!
George.
PS: Next up will be more symphony recordings of concerts, and the live recordings with Arraw of three piano concertos. That will be a fascinating collaboration
The cast of singer are simply superb, and no one is going to say that everyone is fine except for X who was clearly having a poor day. They work together and are supported wonderfully from the orchestra.
I had the LPs of Klemperer's EMI studio recording, and I found that hard work. It was more than worthy, but as can happen with studio recordings made over extended periods, there no inevitability to the flow, and a sort of worthy ruggedness replaced to brilliance and fire in the unedited live recording.
My next set of Fidelio was led by Furtwängler, live at Salzburg, with a Stella international cast and the VPO with the State Opera Chorus, in a Radio taping. This had the same conviction of a wonderful live event captured on the wind, but Klemperer has a few advantages. Firstly the BBC recording from 1961 is very much finer than the Austrian Red-White-Red Radio recording, and Klemperer has a much firmer grip on the rhythm and articulation of the piece.
The structural strength of Klemperer's reading produces some unexpected tempi [and tempi relationships], which only seem unusual once one gets to the end! As I said, during the performance there is an inevitable rightness to it.
In the old style, now criticised, the Finale Scene is preceded by a powerful and propulsive performance of the Third Leonora Overture [as it was in the Furtwängler set] but for once the Finale does not come out as a sort Post Script, but rather a telling of the "Happy Ending!" I have never encountered that before. Indeed, I think it may be a weakness of the Opera, that the Finale does indeed seem hardly necessary after Leonora has found her man again. Somehow, Klemperer keeps that seem of joy going right to the end.
So this is a performance that may be seen as extra-ordinary, and presented in at least respectable sonics [mono of course for the BBC in 1961] but certainly one to run beside any of the estimable studio recordings as an appendix!
For me it goes straight to the top of the list, and tempts me to once again get the Klemperer studio performance. I may see more sense in it now, regarding that as the appendix!
George.
PS: Next up will be more symphony recordings of concerts, and the live recordings with Arraw of three piano concertos. That will be a fascinating collaboration
Posted on: 11 May 2008 by u5227470736789439
Just ordered from the Testamant eshop: Beethoven Symphonies One and Eight in live recordings from the RFH in 1957, coupled with a much later concert recording of the Great Fugue, which should arrive on Tuesday or Wedenesday! Oh the anticipation! And these much less herioc works appeal to me very much ...
George
George
Posted on: 15 May 2008 by u5227470736789439
Two days ago I received the CD Beethoven's First and Eighth Symphonies, and added just for fun the Grosse Fuga in B Flat!
Issued this year for the first time on Testamant SBT 1405, this CD brings to the attention of anyone who cares to listen the fact that Klemperer regarded studio recordings as part of the rehearsal process in preparation for the concert that would often follow, rather than taking the performance to the studio afterwards! There is an aspect to the readings that is nothing short of elemental in their directness. No detail either ignored or allowed to stand in the way of the forward momentum! And what momentum!
These Testament releases are shoiwing a side of Klemperer's music making that all too often eluded the antisceptic studio microphone. The sheer drive of the conception, often in rather quick, though never ruinously so, tempi that Toscanin would have approved of, and [such an approach] is now once again being attempted in HIP. Let me hasten to add that HIP, as a philosophy, has nothing to do with Klemperer's approach.
This maybe seen as the antidote to the high romanticism and occasionally extremely slow tempi of Furtwangler [rightly or wrongly, and who knows], or the softer edged sweetness and light of Bruno Walter.
What we get is a characterisation that unerringly finds the beauty in the music, but never seemingly searches it out, and contrasts it with the sheer power and revolutionary nature of the music, elsewhere. Here Beethoven's works seem to sound as fresh as you could possibly imagine - fresh, revolutionary, and terrifyingly powerful ...
Respectable, if not sweet sounding, BBC [broadcast monitor] mono recordings, which reflect the [then] very dry acoustic of the RFH and yield incredible clarity of musical balance, and for once a very natural timpani sound, sometimes even sounding like the cracks of cannon going of in their intensity. Listening to the Philharmonia simply play in these unedited recordings, I begin to wonder if there was a significantly finer orchestra in the world at that time, such is their fearless address to the music, certainty of resolve, and almost uncanny accuracy. A rare blend. From this it would be hard to believe the physical difficulty with which Klemperer grappled with the actual business of conducting. The result seems to show something akin to Mesmerism in the response of the orchestra.
Alpha plus in my view.
George
Issued this year for the first time on Testamant SBT 1405, this CD brings to the attention of anyone who cares to listen the fact that Klemperer regarded studio recordings as part of the rehearsal process in preparation for the concert that would often follow, rather than taking the performance to the studio afterwards! There is an aspect to the readings that is nothing short of elemental in their directness. No detail either ignored or allowed to stand in the way of the forward momentum! And what momentum!
These Testament releases are shoiwing a side of Klemperer's music making that all too often eluded the antisceptic studio microphone. The sheer drive of the conception, often in rather quick, though never ruinously so, tempi that Toscanin would have approved of, and [such an approach] is now once again being attempted in HIP. Let me hasten to add that HIP, as a philosophy, has nothing to do with Klemperer's approach.
This maybe seen as the antidote to the high romanticism and occasionally extremely slow tempi of Furtwangler [rightly or wrongly, and who knows], or the softer edged sweetness and light of Bruno Walter.
What we get is a characterisation that unerringly finds the beauty in the music, but never seemingly searches it out, and contrasts it with the sheer power and revolutionary nature of the music, elsewhere. Here Beethoven's works seem to sound as fresh as you could possibly imagine - fresh, revolutionary, and terrifyingly powerful ...
Respectable, if not sweet sounding, BBC [broadcast monitor] mono recordings, which reflect the [then] very dry acoustic of the RFH and yield incredible clarity of musical balance, and for once a very natural timpani sound, sometimes even sounding like the cracks of cannon going of in their intensity. Listening to the Philharmonia simply play in these unedited recordings, I begin to wonder if there was a significantly finer orchestra in the world at that time, such is their fearless address to the music, certainty of resolve, and almost uncanny accuracy. A rare blend. From this it would be hard to believe the physical difficulty with which Klemperer grappled with the actual business of conducting. The result seems to show something akin to Mesmerism in the response of the orchestra.
Alpha plus in my view.
George
Posted on: 15 May 2008 by Noye's Fludde
Klemperer was a magnificent artist. His star is in eclipse right now. Thank you for your enlightening and most interesting comments (however thankless the task may seem, it is appreciated). I should like to hear the concerts in question, though I must admit, I have never had a problem with Klemperer's studio records.
His interpretation of Stravinsky's 'Symphony in Three Movements' was a revelation to me. The composer's own statement is a mere wispy shadow next to Klemperer's logic and might !
Noye's
His interpretation of Stravinsky's 'Symphony in Three Movements' was a revelation to me. The composer's own statement is a mere wispy shadow next to Klemperer's logic and might !
Noye's
Posted on: 15 May 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Noye,
My first musical hero after Beethoven, Schubert and Elgar [as a ten year old] was Otto Klemperer. I will post a funny story about this here before too long!
I am not at all slating the studio recordings, but with even the compromise that is there in the actual quality of some of the old live Radio tapes, these live recordings are tremendous even compared to the best of the studio work. My plan is to examine almost every recording of Beethovem [live and studio] in the course of this Thread, and help people by pointing out the most compelling performances or performances in each work that Klemperer left in recorded. I am perhaps half way through. I see this Thread being my single biggest musical essay, and if it removes some of the incorrect preconceptions about Klemperer, and gains a few Beethoven enthusiasts along the way then it is worth it.
It never has been my intention to compare Klemperer's work to any of the other giants of his or even our time. That is for others to do for themselves, by perhaps buying one or two of the discs, perhaps on the strength of my enthusiasm, and then find the value of Klemperer's work for themselves!
The chief problem is that I could easily spend several hundred pounds tomorrow on the necessary new issues to complete the picture. And next there is Klemperer's Mozart to consider, then actually a huge and important legacy in almost every composer of significance. Klemperer, though dogged by his reputation as a Beethoven Specialist, was actually a specialist in music, rather than simply Beethoven, as his recorded Mozart shows us!
Thanks for your post, George
My first musical hero after Beethoven, Schubert and Elgar [as a ten year old] was Otto Klemperer. I will post a funny story about this here before too long!
I am not at all slating the studio recordings, but with even the compromise that is there in the actual quality of some of the old live Radio tapes, these live recordings are tremendous even compared to the best of the studio work. My plan is to examine almost every recording of Beethovem [live and studio] in the course of this Thread, and help people by pointing out the most compelling performances or performances in each work that Klemperer left in recorded. I am perhaps half way through. I see this Thread being my single biggest musical essay, and if it removes some of the incorrect preconceptions about Klemperer, and gains a few Beethoven enthusiasts along the way then it is worth it.
It never has been my intention to compare Klemperer's work to any of the other giants of his or even our time. That is for others to do for themselves, by perhaps buying one or two of the discs, perhaps on the strength of my enthusiasm, and then find the value of Klemperer's work for themselves!
The chief problem is that I could easily spend several hundred pounds tomorrow on the necessary new issues to complete the picture. And next there is Klemperer's Mozart to consider, then actually a huge and important legacy in almost every composer of significance. Klemperer, though dogged by his reputation as a Beethoven Specialist, was actually a specialist in music, rather than simply Beethoven, as his recorded Mozart shows us!
Thanks for your post, George
Posted on: 08 June 2008 by u5227470736789439
I have just ordered the Testament live tapings of Beethoven's Second and Seventh Symphonies with Klemperer and the Philharmonia, as well as the [deleted] EMI studio recordings of Schumann Four and Tchaikowsky Six from the same performers all on CDs from Amazon.
Should be here by the next weekend!
George
Should be here by the next weekend!
George
Posted on: 10 June 2008 by u5227470736789439
The two discs came today! Brilliant, but which piece did I put in first? Beethoven Seven, or Two, or even Tchaik's Pathetic, or Schumann Four?
Beethoven Two of course!
It's a blistering rendition. Well I have to fly, as social pleasantries must come before music, but I can tell that if only the Second Symphony is superb I shall be happy, so fine is it!!!!
I have the EMI studio set from the same time, recorded a few days before the concert, and this shows that the studio effort is like a perfect play through! This is the real bid!
So pleased!
George
PS: No doubt more will follow!
I am getting near to a sort of recommended list by now - at least for the symphonies - in Klemperer's various recordings. As usual it is not entirely clear cut!
Beethoven Two of course!
It's a blistering rendition. Well I have to fly, as social pleasantries must come before music, but I can tell that if only the Second Symphony is superb I shall be happy, so fine is it!!!!
I have the EMI studio set from the same time, recorded a few days before the concert, and this shows that the studio effort is like a perfect play through! This is the real bid!
So pleased!
George
PS: No doubt more will follow!
I am getting near to a sort of recommended list by now - at least for the symphonies - in Klemperer's various recordings. As usual it is not entirely clear cut!
Posted on: 10 June 2008 by u5227470736789439
Following Polish - not Russian - Wodka, I can definateley say that the restraint of Klemperer's Pathetique recording has nothing to do with a lack of imagination!!
George!
PS: Hint: It is not restrained! Sagacious, perhaps, but not restrained - not in the least.
George!
PS: Hint: It is not restrained! Sagacious, perhaps, but not restrained - not in the least.
Posted on: 16 June 2008 by Rubio
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
Also re-released is Klemperer's mid-sixties EMI reording of the Missa Solemnis, which was a problematic work for him, and yet in a fair proportion of the handful of performances he gave in his long career he obtained a phenomenal synthesis of the music, which he himself considered, "does not take account of reality in performance!" He was always deeply depressed about the way it went if it was not up to his own expectations. It seems he was satisfied with the studio recording. [There is a live recording done in 1960 Vienna with the Philharmonia, which is legendary but has only briefly made it to pubication, which is apparently spell-binding. Testamant? One day perhaps].
Kindest regards from Fredrik
I've read through this thread with great interest as Klemperer is one of my favourite conductors (along with Bruno Walter, Rudolf Kempe, Mravinsky, Karel Ancerl +++). I see there is a studio recording of the Missa Solemnis issued on Vox with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra (1951). Has anybody here heard that one? Well, I ordered it.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Missa-solemnis-Symphony...id=1213623775&sr=1-2
I also see there are some live recordings on Music & Arts with the Concertgebouw - at least of the 6th and 8th symphony? Has anybody here heard these ones?
Posted on: 16 June 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Rubio,
I have the Vox recording of the Missa on CD, and it is a performance every bit as grand as the later EMI performance, but the recording requires a certain amount of patience. The forces called for are indeed a challenge for very early tape recording, but Klemperer's vision shines through. I have not come across the Music and Arts issues, and so I can only comment on the Vox recording [from that early fifties date], which is easily my favourite performance of the Pastoral, though the accompanying Fifth Symphony is completely eclipsed in my view by Klemperer's Mono EMI recording with the Philharmonia from 1955. This is once again not simply my favourite performance of the Fifth, but by a big distance. It is terse, clear and happens to come in such a fine recording you forget it is mono. This is available on EMI CD even now.
I think the Pastoral is also helped by the wonderful playing of the Vienna Symphony Orchestra [as in the Missa as well] where the particular Viennese timbres especially of the winds [including their ancient horns!] both blend and come through the string lines in a unique way. Of course Klemperer completely brings the winds lines out in the balance as he does with the Philharmonia, but in this case, I think the actual Viennese sounds are rather important in keeping the charm element in place. You might think Klemperer would fail in the respect of charm, but he balances its importance as well as anyone ever did for records!
ATB from George
I have the Vox recording of the Missa on CD, and it is a performance every bit as grand as the later EMI performance, but the recording requires a certain amount of patience. The forces called for are indeed a challenge for very early tape recording, but Klemperer's vision shines through. I have not come across the Music and Arts issues, and so I can only comment on the Vox recording [from that early fifties date], which is easily my favourite performance of the Pastoral, though the accompanying Fifth Symphony is completely eclipsed in my view by Klemperer's Mono EMI recording with the Philharmonia from 1955. This is once again not simply my favourite performance of the Fifth, but by a big distance. It is terse, clear and happens to come in such a fine recording you forget it is mono. This is available on EMI CD even now.
I think the Pastoral is also helped by the wonderful playing of the Vienna Symphony Orchestra [as in the Missa as well] where the particular Viennese timbres especially of the winds [including their ancient horns!] both blend and come through the string lines in a unique way. Of course Klemperer completely brings the winds lines out in the balance as he does with the Philharmonia, but in this case, I think the actual Viennese sounds are rather important in keeping the charm element in place. You might think Klemperer would fail in the respect of charm, but he balances its importance as well as anyone ever did for records!
ATB from George
Posted on: 16 June 2008 by u5227470736789439
No, but we joked that I could remember the catalogue number though I ordered the LP way back in 1973!
ATB from George
ATB from George
Posted on: 16 June 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Munch,
I can't remember playing much vinyl, though I do remember playing the Dvorak Cello Concerto with Rostrpowich and Sir Adrian Boult on HMV.
I think the Emperer Concerto number may actually be ASD 2750! It's the only LP cat. no. I more or less remember!
I am scratching my head to remember what classical pieces we did play, but we definately played the Accordionists' disc, Bach's Concerto in A for Oboe d'Amoure, Haydn's Clock Symphony, and Marcello's Oboe Concerto in C Minor - Reichenburg/Pinnock, Concertgebeouw Orchestra/Davis, and Evelyn Rothwell/Halle Orchestra, respectively. Otherwise I only put short pieces on, as I remember it!
I will send you an email with the artists and repertoire [and record issuing company], as they are all worth getting!
ATB from George
I can't remember playing much vinyl, though I do remember playing the Dvorak Cello Concerto with Rostrpowich and Sir Adrian Boult on HMV.
I think the Emperer Concerto number may actually be ASD 2750! It's the only LP cat. no. I more or less remember!
I am scratching my head to remember what classical pieces we did play, but we definately played the Accordionists' disc, Bach's Concerto in A for Oboe d'Amoure, Haydn's Clock Symphony, and Marcello's Oboe Concerto in C Minor - Reichenburg/Pinnock, Concertgebeouw Orchestra/Davis, and Evelyn Rothwell/Halle Orchestra, respectively. Otherwise I only put short pieces on, as I remember it!
I will send you an email with the artists and repertoire [and record issuing company], as they are all worth getting!
ATB from George
Posted on: 17 June 2008 by Rubio
quote:Originally posted by GFFJ:
Dear Rubio,
I have the Vox recording of the Missa on CD, and it is a performance every bit as grand as the later EMI performance, but the recording requires a certain amount of patience. The forces called for are indeed a challenge for very early tape recording, but Klemperer's vision shines through. I have not come across the Music and Arts issues, and so I can only comment on the Vox recording [from that early fifties date], which is easily my favourite performance of the Pastoral, though the accompanying Fifth Symphony is completely eclipsed in my view by Klemperer's Mono EMI recording with the Philharmonia from 1955. This is once again not simply my favourite performance of the Fifth, but by a big distance. It is terse, clear and happens to come in such a fine recording you forget it is mono. This is available on EMI CD even now.
I think the Pastoral is also helped by the wonderful playing of the Vienna Symphony Orchestra [as in the Missa as well] where the particular Viennese timbres especially of the winds [including their ancient horns!] both blend and come through the string lines in a unique way. Of course Klemperer completely brings the winds lines out in the balance as he does with the Philharmonia, but in this case, I think the actual Viennese sounds are rather important in keeping the charm element in place. You might think Klemperer would fail in the respect of charm, but he balances its importance as well as anyone ever did for records!
ATB from George
Thank you very much for your detailed response, George. I will buy that EMI mono 5th. I see Klemperer has at least three live 5th's on Testament; with the Philharmonia, BPO and WP. It would certainly be interesting to hear some of these.
I can really imagine the Viennese instruments suit the Pastoral perfectly. I wonder if Klemperer performed this work with the WP at some moment (like he did with the 5th)?
br
Espen
Posted on: 17 June 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Espen,
I have the live BPO recording [of the Fifth Symphony], which I bought a couple of months ago and described on the previous page of this thread, if you are interested. Listening again and discussing it with pe zulu I have come to a further conclusion about it. It is fascinating, powerful and even though it is somewhat slower than the old EMI Mono recording it carried the same monumental vision of the work. But there is a slight reservation that remains in my mind over it: The BPO string sound, which is definitely oversized for the music's good. The orchestra plays beautifully, please do not misunderstand, and the winds are well balanced. Apparently Klemperer had the greatest difficulty getting his way and persuading the orchestra the bring forward the dynamic of the winds relative to the strings as by the mid-sixties the band was well drilled in Karajan's lush string sound and swamped wind balance, which DG's engineers only partly counteract in the sixties Karajan Beethoven cycle. The problem for me is that the basses completely also drown the celli. This is not balanced at all, and the celli might as well not be there, so inherently I am growing to dislike this performance on account of the orchestral style, but wonder at how much the orchestra does sound like the Philharmonia with its focussed, well balanced string section, and wonderfully forward winds, for most of the time [bass-cello balance aside] but how they revert to the Karajan loud sound for the Forte Tutti passages. I notice that Testamant have also issued performances of the Pastoral and the Seventh with Klemperer and the BPO. On the showing in the Fifth [and Fourth which is the coupling] I shall avoid these. They would be fascinating, but not my idea of great lucid, propulsive Beethoven playing.
And strangely I have the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra performance of the Fifth now issued in the big Testamant CD boxed set of live recordings from the Vienna Festival Concerts Klemperer conducted. The issue I have is on the Orchestra's One Hundred and Fiftieth Anniversary Jubilee Album Series [published by the Orchestra itself on the DG label in 1992], and this is a granit-like, amazing performance, but definitely unusual! It is incredibly slow, as some of his performances could be in the last few years of his life, but there is no doubting the great playing and the great conducting going on. The audience erupt at the end, and rightly so in my opinion, but it will not suit everyone as music making I am sure. One to approach with caution, it is much more captivating musically than the Berlin recording, but startlingly slow! The balance internally in the string band, and with the winds is so clear and fine. Obviously Klemperer was getting exactly what he wanted, and his slow tempi are maintained without deviation, so huge momentum and emotional strength results ... I love it, but do not prefer it to his best efforts with the Philharmonia. I would never part with it. Perhaps I could give you the BPO recording [of Four and Five, as I count them a curio, and one that should be heard at least once]. In that way you could have them, listen to them and work out if you would want the others from Berlin as a proper purchase. No problem sending it, if you would like. Email in profile. [I am not aware that Klemperer ever performed the Pastoral with the VPO, which is a shame in my view, but the Vox set with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra is just so lovely, and the recording is tolerably good, and well balanced, so that is recommendable, as is the EMI studio recording from 1957, which may be better played and recorded but just is eclipsed by the older recording for me in a way that is indefinable!].
I have every intention of getting the live Philharmonia recording of the Fifth as it seems from the other live ones I have from them, there is every chance that they may become my favourites! So far I have One, Two, Seven, Eight, and the Choral twice [1957and 1961], and will fill in the others except the Eroica, which Testament have a recording issued of the Danish Royal Chapel Orchestra [or State Radio Orchestra, not sure], which pe zulu can remember being given. I am sure this will be worth getting, though the 1955 Mono studio EMI set will take some equalling in my view.
Those three 1955 recordings Eroica, Five [both in Mono], and the Seventh [amazingly capture in experimental Stereo at the same sessions] are among the most compelling Beethoven on recordings I know, and yet I find the live [1957] Seventh even finer, and I never expected that!
I am getting close to a conclusion on this, but cannot yet quite do it!
Off topic, my Aunt is in Oslo with my cousins at the moment! I wish I were!!!
All the best from George Fredrik
I have the live BPO recording [of the Fifth Symphony], which I bought a couple of months ago and described on the previous page of this thread, if you are interested. Listening again and discussing it with pe zulu I have come to a further conclusion about it. It is fascinating, powerful and even though it is somewhat slower than the old EMI Mono recording it carried the same monumental vision of the work. But there is a slight reservation that remains in my mind over it: The BPO string sound, which is definitely oversized for the music's good. The orchestra plays beautifully, please do not misunderstand, and the winds are well balanced. Apparently Klemperer had the greatest difficulty getting his way and persuading the orchestra the bring forward the dynamic of the winds relative to the strings as by the mid-sixties the band was well drilled in Karajan's lush string sound and swamped wind balance, which DG's engineers only partly counteract in the sixties Karajan Beethoven cycle. The problem for me is that the basses completely also drown the celli. This is not balanced at all, and the celli might as well not be there, so inherently I am growing to dislike this performance on account of the orchestral style, but wonder at how much the orchestra does sound like the Philharmonia with its focussed, well balanced string section, and wonderfully forward winds, for most of the time [bass-cello balance aside] but how they revert to the Karajan loud sound for the Forte Tutti passages. I notice that Testamant have also issued performances of the Pastoral and the Seventh with Klemperer and the BPO. On the showing in the Fifth [and Fourth which is the coupling] I shall avoid these. They would be fascinating, but not my idea of great lucid, propulsive Beethoven playing.
And strangely I have the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra performance of the Fifth now issued in the big Testamant CD boxed set of live recordings from the Vienna Festival Concerts Klemperer conducted. The issue I have is on the Orchestra's One Hundred and Fiftieth Anniversary Jubilee Album Series [published by the Orchestra itself on the DG label in 1992], and this is a granit-like, amazing performance, but definitely unusual! It is incredibly slow, as some of his performances could be in the last few years of his life, but there is no doubting the great playing and the great conducting going on. The audience erupt at the end, and rightly so in my opinion, but it will not suit everyone as music making I am sure. One to approach with caution, it is much more captivating musically than the Berlin recording, but startlingly slow! The balance internally in the string band, and with the winds is so clear and fine. Obviously Klemperer was getting exactly what he wanted, and his slow tempi are maintained without deviation, so huge momentum and emotional strength results ... I love it, but do not prefer it to his best efforts with the Philharmonia. I would never part with it. Perhaps I could give you the BPO recording [of Four and Five, as I count them a curio, and one that should be heard at least once]. In that way you could have them, listen to them and work out if you would want the others from Berlin as a proper purchase. No problem sending it, if you would like. Email in profile. [I am not aware that Klemperer ever performed the Pastoral with the VPO, which is a shame in my view, but the Vox set with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra is just so lovely, and the recording is tolerably good, and well balanced, so that is recommendable, as is the EMI studio recording from 1957, which may be better played and recorded but just is eclipsed by the older recording for me in a way that is indefinable!].
I have every intention of getting the live Philharmonia recording of the Fifth as it seems from the other live ones I have from them, there is every chance that they may become my favourites! So far I have One, Two, Seven, Eight, and the Choral twice [1957and 1961], and will fill in the others except the Eroica, which Testament have a recording issued of the Danish Royal Chapel Orchestra [or State Radio Orchestra, not sure], which pe zulu can remember being given. I am sure this will be worth getting, though the 1955 Mono studio EMI set will take some equalling in my view.
Those three 1955 recordings Eroica, Five [both in Mono], and the Seventh [amazingly capture in experimental Stereo at the same sessions] are among the most compelling Beethoven on recordings I know, and yet I find the live [1957] Seventh even finer, and I never expected that!
I am getting close to a conclusion on this, but cannot yet quite do it!
Off topic, my Aunt is in Oslo with my cousins at the moment! I wish I were!!!
All the best from George Fredrik
Posted on: 20 June 2008 by JeremyB
Hi George,
Sorry, I just saw this thread of yours so mine is a little redundant.
I started to get really interested in this subject last month because in San Francisco we were lucky enough to have the Philharmonia visit with Dohnanyi playing the 5th, (and Brahms 4th their first night) and I was struck how similar these were to Carlos Kleiber with Vienna but also the differences from Klemperer yet your word - satisfying - sums all of them up for me. I will likely have a soft spot for Dohnanyi and the Philharmonia for a while for making this connection.
Do you rate any of the more recent LVB1-9 recordings in the satisfying category - with or without mono button?
Jeremy
Sorry, I just saw this thread of yours so mine is a little redundant.
I started to get really interested in this subject last month because in San Francisco we were lucky enough to have the Philharmonia visit with Dohnanyi playing the 5th, (and Brahms 4th their first night) and I was struck how similar these were to Carlos Kleiber with Vienna but also the differences from Klemperer yet your word - satisfying - sums all of them up for me. I will likely have a soft spot for Dohnanyi and the Philharmonia for a while for making this connection.
Do you rate any of the more recent LVB1-9 recordings in the satisfying category - with or without mono button?
Jeremy
Posted on: 21 June 2008 by pe-zulu
Dear George
I definitely agree with your words about the Klemperer 4 & 5 with the BPO, concerning the opulent and bass heavy string sound, so typical of the orchester in question. As if Karajans spirit was unavoidale. As if conducting the BPO first and foremost was a question of being able to transform the Karajan interpretation. I do not know why this is so. Maybe the reharsal time was too short. Contrary to this several other conductors have made recordings with the BPO in the same period even on DG, which do not make me think of Karajan.
From the Testament catalogue I have acquired the above mentioned 4&5 with BPO and the 1&8 with the Philharmonia. I even have to agree with your words (elsewhere) about the latter. Two lively and well integrated performances, not perfect in the strictest sense of the word, but much more exciting than the corresponding studio production.
And I am now considering the acquisition of the live 2&7 and the 4&5 as well as the 9 all with the Philharmonia of course. I understand, that the live 9 with the similar cast of singers as the studio production (1957) is preferable to the other one with a different cast. Or should one have both? As to 7 I think, it would be a hard job to match the studio mono with the Philharmonia.
Concerning the live Eroica the orchester is the Orchestra of the Royal Danish Opera, which is identical with the Danish Royal Chapel Orchestra. This was at that time regarded to be the top rank orchester in Denmark. Next came the Danish State Radio Orchestra, which was trained by Nicolai Malko, and which played regularily with a host of prominent names. I think the performance will serve as an interesting supplementary listening, more satisfying than the BPO CDs, but it is (as far as I remember - just but a child) no match for the Philharmonia studio mono, which I knew at the time, I heard the live performance, which I think was in 1958, and definitely not earlier than autumn 1957.
The testament live Pastorale consist IIRC of a double CD set with reharsals included. I read about it some time ago, but now I can not find it on Testament´s home page. Where did it go?
ATB Poul
I definitely agree with your words about the Klemperer 4 & 5 with the BPO, concerning the opulent and bass heavy string sound, so typical of the orchester in question. As if Karajans spirit was unavoidale. As if conducting the BPO first and foremost was a question of being able to transform the Karajan interpretation. I do not know why this is so. Maybe the reharsal time was too short. Contrary to this several other conductors have made recordings with the BPO in the same period even on DG, which do not make me think of Karajan.
From the Testament catalogue I have acquired the above mentioned 4&5 with BPO and the 1&8 with the Philharmonia. I even have to agree with your words (elsewhere) about the latter. Two lively and well integrated performances, not perfect in the strictest sense of the word, but much more exciting than the corresponding studio production.
And I am now considering the acquisition of the live 2&7 and the 4&5 as well as the 9 all with the Philharmonia of course. I understand, that the live 9 with the similar cast of singers as the studio production (1957) is preferable to the other one with a different cast. Or should one have both? As to 7 I think, it would be a hard job to match the studio mono with the Philharmonia.
Concerning the live Eroica the orchester is the Orchestra of the Royal Danish Opera, which is identical with the Danish Royal Chapel Orchestra. This was at that time regarded to be the top rank orchester in Denmark. Next came the Danish State Radio Orchestra, which was trained by Nicolai Malko, and which played regularily with a host of prominent names. I think the performance will serve as an interesting supplementary listening, more satisfying than the BPO CDs, but it is (as far as I remember - just but a child) no match for the Philharmonia studio mono, which I knew at the time, I heard the live performance, which I think was in 1958, and definitely not earlier than autumn 1957.
The testament live Pastorale consist IIRC of a double CD set with reharsals included. I read about it some time ago, but now I can not find it on Testament´s home page. Where did it go?
ATB Poul
Posted on: 21 June 2008 by u5227470736789439
Posted Sat 21 June 2008 15:38 by pe zulu:
Dear Poul,
I think it is quite possible that the BPO simply did not like Klemperer. On the other hand the VPO were deeply impressed with him, and the VPO Beethoven Fifth with Klemperer is not to be missed in its power and vision, if it is rather slow! The orchestra bring out conductor’s usual clear balances and play with a strength that is completely different to the recording with the BPO. I suspect that the BPO were happier with the easier task of following Karajan's relatively clear beat compared to Klemperer's, which was definitely sketchy from the technical point of view on times.
On the Choral Symphony live recordings: I significantly prefer the 1961 performance, and I also prefer the solo team, particularly the tenor on the later recording. The performance has even more drive than the 1957 concert, and I have both. If I had the choice of buying just the one I would go for the later one, in spite of a mistake in the timpani part in the first movement. If anything the Choir is even better than the superlative effort in 1957. I significantly prefer the slow movement in '61 as well. The recording is mono and better balanced than the ‘57, which is [incredibly] in stereo.
It would be fairly miraculous if the Royal Chapel Orchestra actually surpassed the Mono EMI studio recording in the Eroica. That strikes me as almost a sort of ideal in the music, but I will probably buy the live Danish performance on Testament later ...
I will look later for the live Pastoral, but once again I have a real liking for the Vox recording of that. It was on Amazon about two weeks ago, so if I can find it again, I will post the link. If it [as I remember it] is with the BPO, I shall pass it by, as I doubt if there is a transformation in the BPO string sound from the coupling of Four and Five. It might be fascinating, but hardly likely to be more to my taste than the old Vox Vienna Symphony Orchestra studio set.
ATB from George
quote:
Dear George
I definitely agree with your words about the Klemperer 4 & 5 with the BPO, concerning the opulent and bass heavy string sound, so typical of the orchester in question. As if Karajans spirit was unavoidale. As if conducting the BPO first and foremost was a question of being able to transform the Karajan interpretation. I do not know why this is so. Maybe the reharsal time was too short. Contrary to this several other conductors have made recordings with the BPO in the same period even on DG, which do not make me think of Karajan.
From the Testament catalogue I have acquired the above mentioned 4&5 with BPO and the 1&8 with the Philharmonia. I even have to agree with your words (elsewhere) about the latter. Two lively and well integrated performances, not perfect in the strictest sense of the word, but much more exciting than the corresponding studio production.
And I am now considering the acquisition of the live 2&7 and the 4&5 as well as the 9 all with the Philharmonia of course. I understand, that the live 9 with the similar cast of singers as the studio production (1957) is preferable to the other one with a different cast. Or should one have both? As to 7 I think, it would be a hard job to match the studio mono with the Philharmonia.
Concerning the live Eroica the orchester is the Orchestra of the Royal Danish Opera, which is identical with the Danish Royal Chapel Orchestra. This was at that time regarded to be the top rank orchester in Denmark. Next came the Danish State Radio Orchestra, which was trained by Nicolai Malko, and which played regularily with a host of prominent names. I think the performance will serve as an interesting supplementary listening, more satisfying than the BPO CDs, but it is (as far as I remember - just but a child) no match for the Philharmonia studio mono, which I knew at the time, I heard the live performance, which I think was in 1958, and definitely not earlier than autumn 1957.
The testament live Pastorale consist IIRC of a double CD set with reharsals included. I read about it some time ago, but now I can not find it on Testament´s home page. Where did it go?
ATB Poul
Dear Poul,
I think it is quite possible that the BPO simply did not like Klemperer. On the other hand the VPO were deeply impressed with him, and the VPO Beethoven Fifth with Klemperer is not to be missed in its power and vision, if it is rather slow! The orchestra bring out conductor’s usual clear balances and play with a strength that is completely different to the recording with the BPO. I suspect that the BPO were happier with the easier task of following Karajan's relatively clear beat compared to Klemperer's, which was definitely sketchy from the technical point of view on times.
On the Choral Symphony live recordings: I significantly prefer the 1961 performance, and I also prefer the solo team, particularly the tenor on the later recording. The performance has even more drive than the 1957 concert, and I have both. If I had the choice of buying just the one I would go for the later one, in spite of a mistake in the timpani part in the first movement. If anything the Choir is even better than the superlative effort in 1957. I significantly prefer the slow movement in '61 as well. The recording is mono and better balanced than the ‘57, which is [incredibly] in stereo.
It would be fairly miraculous if the Royal Chapel Orchestra actually surpassed the Mono EMI studio recording in the Eroica. That strikes me as almost a sort of ideal in the music, but I will probably buy the live Danish performance on Testament later ...
I will look later for the live Pastoral, but once again I have a real liking for the Vox recording of that. It was on Amazon about two weeks ago, so if I can find it again, I will post the link. If it [as I remember it] is with the BPO, I shall pass it by, as I doubt if there is a transformation in the BPO string sound from the coupling of Four and Five. It might be fascinating, but hardly likely to be more to my taste than the old Vox Vienna Symphony Orchestra studio set.
ATB from George
Posted on: 23 June 2008 by Noye's Fludde
I can comment on two performances, those of the Beethoven 6th and Missa Solemnis on Vox.
One thing I find striking in Klemperer's performances is the truism, the better the work, the better K's performance of it. That is the highest compliment you can pay any performer. If a performance can rise to the quality of the individual work, no matter how lofty it's heights or how deep its depths, then that is truly something special. If I prefer Klemperer's recording of the Bach B minor Mass to the Missa Solemnis, it is because the Bach Mass is written for the voice and Beethoven's work is composed 'in spite of the voice.'
I think that, with certain works, a performance must be 'made'.. In such cases, merely presenting the work straight, in all it's glory, is not enough. I am still struck by the freshness and vivacity of Bernstein's Columbia Missa. He seems to be able to make the work sing and dance in a way that, to hear others do it, hardly seems likely. This may go down to the creative element. Bernstein was a very accomplished composer whereas Klemperer, by all accounts, was at best a creative mediocrity. Bernstein can see better what the composer meant and what he felt in his innermost depths. This is something that goes beyond training or technique.
That said, there are moments when Klemperer's lack of outer expressivity and emotion pay big dividends. Somehow, the bars leading up to the big violin solo in the Sanctus, by being played so plain and affectless, allow the entrance of the violin to have greater emotional impact. Klemperer's is the more devotional and traditional, middle European approach.
About the Vox 6th,... it is a unique performance. Most striking in it's total lack of Viennese Gemutlich. It is so strikingly plain that, at first, it requires a bit of adjustment from the familiar sounds of, say, Bruno Walter's humane, and more genial approach,.. it requires a kind of emotional re-orientation on the part of the listener trained on a more conventional approach. I suppose, that if I'd had Klemperer's version as my first exposure to the work, I would view the 6th as an altogether more interesting work. Rather, it has been reduced to sentimental cliches in the hands of more "natural"(ie emotionally flowing) approaches. Probably, under K, the work has a better balance between clarity, musicality and ultimately,.. spiritual satisfaction.
Noyes
One thing I find striking in Klemperer's performances is the truism, the better the work, the better K's performance of it. That is the highest compliment you can pay any performer. If a performance can rise to the quality of the individual work, no matter how lofty it's heights or how deep its depths, then that is truly something special. If I prefer Klemperer's recording of the Bach B minor Mass to the Missa Solemnis, it is because the Bach Mass is written for the voice and Beethoven's work is composed 'in spite of the voice.'
I think that, with certain works, a performance must be 'made'.. In such cases, merely presenting the work straight, in all it's glory, is not enough. I am still struck by the freshness and vivacity of Bernstein's Columbia Missa. He seems to be able to make the work sing and dance in a way that, to hear others do it, hardly seems likely. This may go down to the creative element. Bernstein was a very accomplished composer whereas Klemperer, by all accounts, was at best a creative mediocrity. Bernstein can see better what the composer meant and what he felt in his innermost depths. This is something that goes beyond training or technique.
That said, there are moments when Klemperer's lack of outer expressivity and emotion pay big dividends. Somehow, the bars leading up to the big violin solo in the Sanctus, by being played so plain and affectless, allow the entrance of the violin to have greater emotional impact. Klemperer's is the more devotional and traditional, middle European approach.
About the Vox 6th,... it is a unique performance. Most striking in it's total lack of Viennese Gemutlich. It is so strikingly plain that, at first, it requires a bit of adjustment from the familiar sounds of, say, Bruno Walter's humane, and more genial approach,.. it requires a kind of emotional re-orientation on the part of the listener trained on a more conventional approach. I suppose, that if I'd had Klemperer's version as my first exposure to the work, I would view the 6th as an altogether more interesting work. Rather, it has been reduced to sentimental cliches in the hands of more "natural"(ie emotionally flowing) approaches. Probably, under K, the work has a better balance between clarity, musicality and ultimately,.. spiritual satisfaction.
Noyes
Posted on: 23 June 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Noah,
It may be interesting to consider that Klemperer approached the Missa Solemnis as a work, "which takes no account of the possibilities of performance," as he so aptly put it. The tessitura of all the voices in the Choir is too high for for stretches, much too long, for it ever to be perfectly performed. Relatively the Mass in B Minor is much easier, though not easy for the Choir. Bach's instrumental writing is much more demanding on the instrumental performers, though ...
As a result Klemperer spent most of his career refusing to perform either work. His B Minor Mass recording from 1967 is one that was made during preparations for an RFH concert, which Klemperer explained was an experiment to see if he could convince himself of the work's performability! That was 37 years after his previous [complete] performance in Berlin in 1930.
Similarly he waited more than twenty years to make the Vox recording since his previous public concert of the Missa Solemnis. He was never convinced of the possibility of a perfect performance of the work ...
If remains a question of opinion whether Klemperer's considerable austerity in the work is a more constructive approach to what is definitely a rambling work that needs a firm hand on the tiller, if it is not to fall into an episodic mode. That is exactly why a reading like Bernstein’s fails completely for me, but Klemperer's view is without doubt completely single minded, and dedicated to the maximum of clarity, and makes no concession at all to any attempt to find the romantic aspect in it, or even beautify the power of it. But as you say there is beauty is Klemperer's reading, and it emerges as a direct consequence of Beethoven's writing rather than the attempt to make the powerfully trenchant more beautiful than I suspect Beethoven intended. It is an uncompromising work without question!
All the more so does the episodic beauty emerge in Klemperer's hands for the great contrasts that this austere approach brings out without applying anything at all to the music that is not explicitly stated in the score. It takes genius to make such a stylistically ascetic approach into something powerfully human in its musical outpouring.
Very much the same applies to the Pastoral, which often falls into the category of "pretty, nicey-nicey" music, without the obvious symphonic strength of the other symphonies. It is Klemperer's genius in this work to provide a literally unique spiritual conception it, so that it emerges as a powerful and fully symphonic work of terse power, in spite of its gentle aspect in the first three movements.
The charm as it exists in this Vox VSO recording is in the instrumental timbres rather than the sweetening of the music through tempo manipulations or smoothed over phrasing. In this way, I find the actually playing of the VSO is what makes this my favourite recording of the work with Klemperer, but Klemperer's unique approach makes his own reading [with any orchestra captured by the recording process] preferable for me to any other, so that this Vox recording occupies a very special place in my affections and is for me head and shoulders finer than any other performance I have encountered.
I believe it a performance to convert to loving the work those who find the work lacks power, architectural/emotional strength, tension, and drive. Apart from Erich Kleiber this is the only reading I find completely satisfying, though Boehm on DG with eh VPO is rather fine on a lower level of inspiration IMO of course!
Thanks for your splendid post!
George
It may be interesting to consider that Klemperer approached the Missa Solemnis as a work, "which takes no account of the possibilities of performance," as he so aptly put it. The tessitura of all the voices in the Choir is too high for for stretches, much too long, for it ever to be perfectly performed. Relatively the Mass in B Minor is much easier, though not easy for the Choir. Bach's instrumental writing is much more demanding on the instrumental performers, though ...
As a result Klemperer spent most of his career refusing to perform either work. His B Minor Mass recording from 1967 is one that was made during preparations for an RFH concert, which Klemperer explained was an experiment to see if he could convince himself of the work's performability! That was 37 years after his previous [complete] performance in Berlin in 1930.
Similarly he waited more than twenty years to make the Vox recording since his previous public concert of the Missa Solemnis. He was never convinced of the possibility of a perfect performance of the work ...
If remains a question of opinion whether Klemperer's considerable austerity in the work is a more constructive approach to what is definitely a rambling work that needs a firm hand on the tiller, if it is not to fall into an episodic mode. That is exactly why a reading like Bernstein’s fails completely for me, but Klemperer's view is without doubt completely single minded, and dedicated to the maximum of clarity, and makes no concession at all to any attempt to find the romantic aspect in it, or even beautify the power of it. But as you say there is beauty is Klemperer's reading, and it emerges as a direct consequence of Beethoven's writing rather than the attempt to make the powerfully trenchant more beautiful than I suspect Beethoven intended. It is an uncompromising work without question!
All the more so does the episodic beauty emerge in Klemperer's hands for the great contrasts that this austere approach brings out without applying anything at all to the music that is not explicitly stated in the score. It takes genius to make such a stylistically ascetic approach into something powerfully human in its musical outpouring.
Very much the same applies to the Pastoral, which often falls into the category of "pretty, nicey-nicey" music, without the obvious symphonic strength of the other symphonies. It is Klemperer's genius in this work to provide a literally unique spiritual conception it, so that it emerges as a powerful and fully symphonic work of terse power, in spite of its gentle aspect in the first three movements.
The charm as it exists in this Vox VSO recording is in the instrumental timbres rather than the sweetening of the music through tempo manipulations or smoothed over phrasing. In this way, I find the actually playing of the VSO is what makes this my favourite recording of the work with Klemperer, but Klemperer's unique approach makes his own reading [with any orchestra captured by the recording process] preferable for me to any other, so that this Vox recording occupies a very special place in my affections and is for me head and shoulders finer than any other performance I have encountered.
I believe it a performance to convert to loving the work those who find the work lacks power, architectural/emotional strength, tension, and drive. Apart from Erich Kleiber this is the only reading I find completely satisfying, though Boehm on DG with eh VPO is rather fine on a lower level of inspiration IMO of course!
Thanks for your splendid post!
George
Posted on: 27 June 2008 by u5227470736789439
Just ordered Symphonies, Four and Five with the Philharmonia in the BBC live recordings on Testament, and The Missa Solemnis in the same series live in 1963!
That [with the Annie Fischer Beethoven Sonata Cycle on Hungaraton] represents more than my monthly fun spending, but life is today, and not next year!
George
PS: Though I got the same coupling of Four and Five from BPO under Klemperer "live," I wish I had gone for the Philharmonia "live" recordings [all on Testamant], as I find the string and wind balances exemplary with the London based orchestra, but too bass-weighty in Berlin. I shall not be buying the others Testament offer in the series from the Berlin concerts.
That [with the Annie Fischer Beethoven Sonata Cycle on Hungaraton] represents more than my monthly fun spending, but life is today, and not next year!
George
PS: Though I got the same coupling of Four and Five from BPO under Klemperer "live," I wish I had gone for the Philharmonia "live" recordings [all on Testamant], as I find the string and wind balances exemplary with the London based orchestra, but too bass-weighty in Berlin. I shall not be buying the others Testament offer in the series from the Berlin concerts.
Posted on: 01 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
The two Klemperer CDs came. Goodness we must be grateful to the BBC and the British Library that these documents of such performances are still are audible. And Testament for publishing them, especially considering how difficult are the times for classic recording sales.
The performances are among the most emotionally staggering Beethoven I have ever heard. I am tired, and cannot begin to do justice to what is contained tonight. The Missa has the cohesion one could only dream of ...
George
The performances are among the most emotionally staggering Beethoven I have ever heard. I am tired, and cannot begin to do justice to what is contained tonight. The Missa has the cohesion one could only dream of ...
George
Posted on: 02 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Broke up from work till Monday at teatime! Immediately I felt reasonable, and relaxed, and not the least wanting to sleep!
Perfect state for listening, and the two new live recordings with Klemperer leading the music of Beethoven had their due in terms of concentrated appreciation this evening.
The Disc of the Fourth and Fifth Symphony enters with the imposing chords that launch the Egmont Overture. This is very similar to the EMI recording which accompanies the Pastoral Symphony in the current Great Recordings of the Century issue, and has just the edge more drama and sense of timing and strangely better ensemble. This was one grand performance, and sets the scene for the Fourth Symphony, which often comes off as a sort Idyll, sweetly offending no one.
Klemperer brings this music to life is a way that underlines the music's drama, and terse symphonic argument that only serve to underline the sheer energy of the music. This is not to say that the introduction lacks mystery or the slow movement its repose, but the whole effect is one of strong contrasts utterly bound together in tight cohesion. Though the approach is similar to the studio recording for EMI made during preparations for this 1957 Beethoven Festival Concert, the effect strikes me as different. If the studio performance impresses as a very clear and architectural reading with less contrast, this one seems to probe the power of the music more than any performance I have yet encountered. The studio set is snguine and less compelling though still one of the great recordings of the symphony. The live performance is at an altogether higher level, if perhaps slightly less polished as a performance. That should worry no one!
Then comes the Fifth, which I naturally had high expectations of. Powerful and compressed music, in the hands of a master of drive, and momentum, and a long-term view that welds detail into the very structure of it. Yes, this a great performance, and one that builds in tension to the very end of the Finale, almost as if the music did not pause between the first three movements, but it does not surpass the unique 1955 mono EMI studio recording in any respect except better balancing of the winds and brass, where, as ever, Klemperer ensures every single note is clearly heard. But the studio set paradoxically carries even more momentum. The reverse of the usual situation.
Then I rested and set off on the Missa Solemnis!
Klemperer made two commercial recordings of this - firstly for Vox with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra in 1951, and secondly for EMI in 1965 with the New Philharmonia.
Musically this 1963 concert has the trumps. It is not flawless and the great Philharmonia Chorus are both supple and glorious toned, but inevitably show some strain at Beethoven's unreasonable demands in writing far too much music in high tessitura. In the studio this could be taken with the strenuous parts separated by days, which has its advantages.
What you could not get in the studio is the magic that can sometimes happen in the concert setting. It is as if the whole performance is building towards the end. Well towards the last section, the Agnus Dei.
I have no idea quite why but this last section then reaps the power and strength built so monumentally in a style anyone familiar with either of Klemperer’s studio recordings will recognise. Almost completely devoid of any romantic expressivity at all - the opposite of Bernstein or Boehm in the music - and treats us to a Benediction in the quiet last bars. The tension is released in the most breath-takingly beautiful and poised revelation of music, which I would say was about the most profound music statement left in recordings from Klemperer in his whole career.
This is something every person who either loves or is curious about Beethoven’s music should listen too. I was not expecting this from knowing the studio recordings. But I doubt it could ever be achieved like that in the studio without sounding "arch."
Now the bad news. The Symphony disc, is well balanced and has the same sound qualities as the other BBC recordings in the series and these reflect the extremely dry acoustic of the Royal Festival Hall, and this means that the forte passages are hardly sweet as they would be in the studio, but somehow this suits the music and Klemperer's musical reading.
Sadly the Missa recording is only just slightly better than adequate. The very opening Kyrie orchestral chord brings feeling of foreboding with dull muffled sound, and it is a very good job that within seconds the tone of it grows a proper brightness! This is not nearly so fine as the two live recordings of the Choral Symphony in the series as sound, but the crucial details emerge well enough not to be lost, and the ear soon adjusts, so this is the price to pay for the majesty and mystery of the music making, brought out with such profound spirituality. In my view it is the performance of the three that will be my choice to play most often for its profundity, but the warning is there for those who cannot deal so well with old live radio-tape recording in less than ideal condition.
ATB from George
Perfect state for listening, and the two new live recordings with Klemperer leading the music of Beethoven had their due in terms of concentrated appreciation this evening.
The Disc of the Fourth and Fifth Symphony enters with the imposing chords that launch the Egmont Overture. This is very similar to the EMI recording which accompanies the Pastoral Symphony in the current Great Recordings of the Century issue, and has just the edge more drama and sense of timing and strangely better ensemble. This was one grand performance, and sets the scene for the Fourth Symphony, which often comes off as a sort Idyll, sweetly offending no one.
Klemperer brings this music to life is a way that underlines the music's drama, and terse symphonic argument that only serve to underline the sheer energy of the music. This is not to say that the introduction lacks mystery or the slow movement its repose, but the whole effect is one of strong contrasts utterly bound together in tight cohesion. Though the approach is similar to the studio recording for EMI made during preparations for this 1957 Beethoven Festival Concert, the effect strikes me as different. If the studio performance impresses as a very clear and architectural reading with less contrast, this one seems to probe the power of the music more than any performance I have yet encountered. The studio set is snguine and less compelling though still one of the great recordings of the symphony. The live performance is at an altogether higher level, if perhaps slightly less polished as a performance. That should worry no one!
Then comes the Fifth, which I naturally had high expectations of. Powerful and compressed music, in the hands of a master of drive, and momentum, and a long-term view that welds detail into the very structure of it. Yes, this a great performance, and one that builds in tension to the very end of the Finale, almost as if the music did not pause between the first three movements, but it does not surpass the unique 1955 mono EMI studio recording in any respect except better balancing of the winds and brass, where, as ever, Klemperer ensures every single note is clearly heard. But the studio set paradoxically carries even more momentum. The reverse of the usual situation.
Then I rested and set off on the Missa Solemnis!
Klemperer made two commercial recordings of this - firstly for Vox with the Vienna Symphony Orchestra in 1951, and secondly for EMI in 1965 with the New Philharmonia.
Musically this 1963 concert has the trumps. It is not flawless and the great Philharmonia Chorus are both supple and glorious toned, but inevitably show some strain at Beethoven's unreasonable demands in writing far too much music in high tessitura. In the studio this could be taken with the strenuous parts separated by days, which has its advantages.
What you could not get in the studio is the magic that can sometimes happen in the concert setting. It is as if the whole performance is building towards the end. Well towards the last section, the Agnus Dei.
I have no idea quite why but this last section then reaps the power and strength built so monumentally in a style anyone familiar with either of Klemperer’s studio recordings will recognise. Almost completely devoid of any romantic expressivity at all - the opposite of Bernstein or Boehm in the music - and treats us to a Benediction in the quiet last bars. The tension is released in the most breath-takingly beautiful and poised revelation of music, which I would say was about the most profound music statement left in recordings from Klemperer in his whole career.
This is something every person who either loves or is curious about Beethoven’s music should listen too. I was not expecting this from knowing the studio recordings. But I doubt it could ever be achieved like that in the studio without sounding "arch."
Now the bad news. The Symphony disc, is well balanced and has the same sound qualities as the other BBC recordings in the series and these reflect the extremely dry acoustic of the Royal Festival Hall, and this means that the forte passages are hardly sweet as they would be in the studio, but somehow this suits the music and Klemperer's musical reading.
Sadly the Missa recording is only just slightly better than adequate. The very opening Kyrie orchestral chord brings feeling of foreboding with dull muffled sound, and it is a very good job that within seconds the tone of it grows a proper brightness! This is not nearly so fine as the two live recordings of the Choral Symphony in the series as sound, but the crucial details emerge well enough not to be lost, and the ear soon adjusts, so this is the price to pay for the majesty and mystery of the music making, brought out with such profound spirituality. In my view it is the performance of the three that will be my choice to play most often for its profundity, but the warning is there for those who cannot deal so well with old live radio-tape recording in less than ideal condition.
ATB from George
Posted on: 03 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,
The Missa Solemnis recording is of devastating significance. Last evening I was much too constrained in my thoughts about it. Here is what I just wrote in [part of] an email about it. This much nearer indicating the performance's significance:
KR, from George
The Missa Solemnis recording is of devastating significance. Last evening I was much too constrained in my thoughts about it. Here is what I just wrote in [part of] an email about it. This much nearer indicating the performance's significance:
quote:I am listening to a live recording of the Missa Solemnis this morning again. It is Klemperer in the RFH with his phenomenally honed Philharmonia Orchestra and Chorus and really top soloists. The recording is definitely more primitive than you might hope for from the BBC in 1963, but the sweep of the music [and performance] is irresistible!
For once I have it turned up a bit, and the chance is a rare one. But music for a Choir of 200, an orchestra of perhaps 90 and very large organ part as well, cannot be replayed successfully at low levels.
[...].
Klemperer was known as a severe and ascetic musician whose concern was structure and the emotional strength in the music [and brought out by long term architectural means, rather than short term meddling with speeds or overly sweet phrasing], - he would not add sugar to the fruit to mask its subtle if occasionally sharp taste! There is plenty of wonder, mystery and downright human warmth in this, even though not one micron of quarter is given over to false emotion or romantic response! Where Beethoven intended soaring spiritual beauty this emerges all the more delineated for the trenchancy that surrounds it, being realised with terrifying power and directness.
This is probably the greatest single recording of Beethoven's music that I have, and the live setting, compared to Klemperer's two studio recordings allows for something that admits to human frailty and imperfection as well as a sense of utter dedication to striving for the kernel of the music. It seems that the greater the music, the greater the ability of Klemperer to bring out this strength and overwhelming power in the emotional message.
Sorry about that flight. Rarely can a newly released recording [even one of second rate technical quality] be so compelling."
KR, from George
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,
Finally, and without further investigation, I shall post a possible top list of Beethoven Symphony Cycle from Otto Klemperer.
The reason for not simply accepting the very fine EMI stereo Cycle is that in each case of the individual symphonies, there is or even are finer recordings issued and easily available. I have avoided investigating the sort of issue as might be thought of as “collectable” from out of the way companies which may not be available in all territories or even easily available at all. These are mainstream issues, which are as easily obtained as the EMI stereo Cycle, though being individual issues the price is not in the budget range but rather the upper mid-price bracket.
1. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1963] SBT 1405
2. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1957] SBT 1406
3. Klemperer/Philharmonia [EMI studio, 1955] 0724356774025
4. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1957] SBT 1407
5. Klemperer/Philharmonia [EMI studio, 1955] 0724356785120
6. Klemperer/Vienna Symphony Orchestra [Vox studio, early fifties] Information below.
7. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1957] SBT 1406
8. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1963] SBT 1405
9. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1961] SBT 1332
The performances have all been considered in the pages of this thread, and of course the three issues of the Missa Solemnis and certain other issues, such as the legendary Fidelio recording from the production at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, have also been considered.
Future investigations will take in the Third, Fourth, and fifth Piano Concerto concerts from 1957 with Claudio Arraw, which gained a legendary status before Testament finally issued the recordings. I would like to confirm that these are worthy of “legendary status.”
Of course the question will remain why any one nowadays would want to investigate recording, mostly just over half a century old, when there have been many remarkable Beethoven Symphony Cycles recorded since, often in very good recordings and splendid performances? The answer for me is clear, in that by about 1955, Klemperer had hardly had a stable base to work, and the kind of opportunities that Herbert von Karajan had with his work with the Philharmonia and Berlin Philharmonic for one by now often accepted as exemplary set of readings, available in I believe five different commercial sets.
Klemperer, for various reasons, not the least that it was almost too late for him as an old man, completed only one complete “official studio cycle,” the EMI set. Even these recordings represent his work at a time when his work in the studio, was arguably showing signs of declining physical powers, and often a rather safe approach to tempi. The contemporary concerts show a very different record of an artist who would not only take risks, but seemed to insisted on them in the name of bringing forward his driven, powerful, and often deeply expressive understanding of the music. The paradox, is that this vision was in so many ways one that prefigures the modern HIP movement which insists on often fast tempi [a Klemperer characteristics in concerts, but not so often in the studio], clear balancing of the winds and brass, which seem to have been crucial in the concert hall and the studio, and an avoidance of the kind of tempo manipulations that characterise the older “romantic” school of conductors, such as Wilhelm Furtwangler.
In many ways Klemperer was a very forward looking artist, whose individual rejection of the normal performing traditions [of his day] led him to produce performances that have not become historical curios, but ones that remain as relevant today as they were relevant and “revolutionary” at the time.
I sincerely hope that some here will see this list and perhaps investigate some or even all of them over time. Klemperer’s reputation has been somewhat dogged by the expectation of slow, even eccentric performances on records, and there is no denying that if the only reference were to be his late EMI studio recordings that might be the impression left. These live and slightly older studio recordings demonstrate why he was so lionised for his concerts not only in the 1950s, but through most of the 1960s as well.
I commend these recording, for anyone who loves the Symphonic Music of Beethoven, and also to those who have found the music is not always so easy. These are so honest and well presented as music making that they compel attention, admiration and even allow for a deepening of understanding of quite why Beethoven himself was a great and revolutionary composer in his day.
Sincerely from George
PS: I have missed out the contemporary Eroica performance Testament issued from the Danish Royal Chapel Orchestra, on the strength of pe zulu’s assurance that is “but a child” compared to the famous 1955 EMI studio recording, and also omitted consideration of the Klemperer’s concert performances with the Berlin Philharmonic in the Symphonies 4, 5, 6, and 7. This is because the string sonority in Berlin is of that ultra-luxuriant and weighty style that Karajan brought to bear there, and which Klemperer seems to have been unable to change in the necessarily relatively short time given for rehearsals. With the Philharmonia, the orchestra naturally produced the kind of string balances that Klemperer was looking for and found in almost any orchestra other than the BPO.
PPS: The Vox recording of the Pastoral may be obtained from Amazon.com, as in the link in Rubio’s post on page five of this thread, about have way down.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Missa-solemnis-Symphony...id=1213623775&sr=1-2
In this issue the Pastoral Symphony is coupled with the Fifth, and the Missa Solemnis.
Finally, and without further investigation, I shall post a possible top list of Beethoven Symphony Cycle from Otto Klemperer.
The reason for not simply accepting the very fine EMI stereo Cycle is that in each case of the individual symphonies, there is or even are finer recordings issued and easily available. I have avoided investigating the sort of issue as might be thought of as “collectable” from out of the way companies which may not be available in all territories or even easily available at all. These are mainstream issues, which are as easily obtained as the EMI stereo Cycle, though being individual issues the price is not in the budget range but rather the upper mid-price bracket.
1. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1963] SBT 1405
2. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1957] SBT 1406
3. Klemperer/Philharmonia [EMI studio, 1955] 0724356774025
4. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1957] SBT 1407
5. Klemperer/Philharmonia [EMI studio, 1955] 0724356785120
6. Klemperer/Vienna Symphony Orchestra [Vox studio, early fifties] Information below.
7. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1957] SBT 1406
8. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1963] SBT 1405
9. Klemperer/Philharmonia [Testament/BBC live in RFH, 1961] SBT 1332
The performances have all been considered in the pages of this thread, and of course the three issues of the Missa Solemnis and certain other issues, such as the legendary Fidelio recording from the production at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden, have also been considered.
Future investigations will take in the Third, Fourth, and fifth Piano Concerto concerts from 1957 with Claudio Arraw, which gained a legendary status before Testament finally issued the recordings. I would like to confirm that these are worthy of “legendary status.”
Of course the question will remain why any one nowadays would want to investigate recording, mostly just over half a century old, when there have been many remarkable Beethoven Symphony Cycles recorded since, often in very good recordings and splendid performances? The answer for me is clear, in that by about 1955, Klemperer had hardly had a stable base to work, and the kind of opportunities that Herbert von Karajan had with his work with the Philharmonia and Berlin Philharmonic for one by now often accepted as exemplary set of readings, available in I believe five different commercial sets.
Klemperer, for various reasons, not the least that it was almost too late for him as an old man, completed only one complete “official studio cycle,” the EMI set. Even these recordings represent his work at a time when his work in the studio, was arguably showing signs of declining physical powers, and often a rather safe approach to tempi. The contemporary concerts show a very different record of an artist who would not only take risks, but seemed to insisted on them in the name of bringing forward his driven, powerful, and often deeply expressive understanding of the music. The paradox, is that this vision was in so many ways one that prefigures the modern HIP movement which insists on often fast tempi [a Klemperer characteristics in concerts, but not so often in the studio], clear balancing of the winds and brass, which seem to have been crucial in the concert hall and the studio, and an avoidance of the kind of tempo manipulations that characterise the older “romantic” school of conductors, such as Wilhelm Furtwangler.
In many ways Klemperer was a very forward looking artist, whose individual rejection of the normal performing traditions [of his day] led him to produce performances that have not become historical curios, but ones that remain as relevant today as they were relevant and “revolutionary” at the time.
I sincerely hope that some here will see this list and perhaps investigate some or even all of them over time. Klemperer’s reputation has been somewhat dogged by the expectation of slow, even eccentric performances on records, and there is no denying that if the only reference were to be his late EMI studio recordings that might be the impression left. These live and slightly older studio recordings demonstrate why he was so lionised for his concerts not only in the 1950s, but through most of the 1960s as well.
I commend these recording, for anyone who loves the Symphonic Music of Beethoven, and also to those who have found the music is not always so easy. These are so honest and well presented as music making that they compel attention, admiration and even allow for a deepening of understanding of quite why Beethoven himself was a great and revolutionary composer in his day.
Sincerely from George
PS: I have missed out the contemporary Eroica performance Testament issued from the Danish Royal Chapel Orchestra, on the strength of pe zulu’s assurance that is “but a child” compared to the famous 1955 EMI studio recording, and also omitted consideration of the Klemperer’s concert performances with the Berlin Philharmonic in the Symphonies 4, 5, 6, and 7. This is because the string sonority in Berlin is of that ultra-luxuriant and weighty style that Karajan brought to bear there, and which Klemperer seems to have been unable to change in the necessarily relatively short time given for rehearsals. With the Philharmonia, the orchestra naturally produced the kind of string balances that Klemperer was looking for and found in almost any orchestra other than the BPO.
PPS: The Vox recording of the Pastoral may be obtained from Amazon.com, as in the link in Rubio’s post on page five of this thread, about have way down.
http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Missa-solemnis-Symphony...id=1213623775&sr=1-2
In this issue the Pastoral Symphony is coupled with the Fifth, and the Missa Solemnis.