Klemperer's Beethoven, New Issues!
Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 25 March 2007
Dear Friends,
I find a ramble round
http://www.testament.co.uk/ is usually some what depressing. So much I would love to get, and so on!
Of special interest is a series of live Beethoven Symphony recordings from the Philharmonia [mainly in the Royal Festival Hall] including 1 to 5, and 7 and 8, issued for the first time. The Eroica comes in a performance with the Danish State Orchestra, presumably because it is finer than any of the Philharmonia readings.
This is in addition to two live recordings of his in the Choral Symphony and the Third, Fourth and Fifth Piano Concertos with Claudio Arraw already released. [Testamant also have royally served Solomon Cutner in the existing Sonata recordings - about half the series, before a series of strokes cut his career short -and his series of the Piano Concertos, as well as Concerti by Tchaikowsky, Bliss and so on...].
I think that though almost every recording of Furtwngler has long since been unearthed and published, the renewed interest in Klemperer's legacy quite probably has even more to offer those who really enjoy the works of Beethoven.
Also re-released is Klemperer's mid-sixties EMI reording of the Missa Solemnis, which was a problematic work for him, and yet in a fair proportion of the handful of performances he gave in his long career he obtained a phenomenal synthesis of the music, which he himself considered, "does not take account of reality in performance!" He was always deeply depressed about the way it went if it was not up to his own expectations. It seems he was satisfied with the studio recording. [There is a live recording done in 1960 Vienna with the Philharmonia, which is legendary but has only briefly made it to pubication, which is apparently spell-binding. Testamant? One day perhaps].
Another fascinating glimse of an older time is to be found as finally Testamant have released the recording done in the Royal Albert Hall of the World Premiere of R Stauss' Four Last Songs, with the Flagstad, The Philharmonia, and Furtwangler. The parts of the recording which survive, have been transfered to fill a CD. This might be priceless. The Songs are complete, and apparently in better condition than any pirate release so far... I post this up for others rather than my own consumption for all that.
Kindest regards from Fredrik
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Now the survey is complete, I am more than happy to try to clarify anything for those wondering where to start, or even what any of the performances are like. Of course an awful lot has been said on this already in the course of this thread, and it may prove an interesting read from end to end.
So any question?
All the best from George
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by dn1
No question... just a heartfelt thankyou.
I have had the EMI studio set for many years, and eventually supplemented it with other conductor's performances. But I have always returned to Klemperer, and am now inspired to explore the Testament releases.
As an aside... many years ago I was listening to Tchaikovsky 6th on the car radio. For some reason the performance really hooked me, and when the reception faded (on the Great Ocean Road west of Melbourne, Australia) I turned the car round and parked within the signal to hear the last two movements. After it finished, the announcer revealed it had been Klemperer...
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
I recently got hold of this now deleted performance of the Pathetique on CD having found it simply the most engaging performance from my days using LPs.
Klemperer was not just a Beethoveian. He was a master musician.
Sadly his reputation as one of the great Beethoven conductors has put his work in other respects into the shade!
George
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by Tam
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
Sadly his reputation as one of the great Beethoven conductors has put his work in other respects into the shade!
Perhaps a little like Jochum and Bruckner in this regard.
dn1 mentions the EMI studio set. I must say that I find the performances rather dull and turgid. Not a patch on the brilliance of the live Fidelio that George mentioned earlier in this thread. I'm curious to track down some of these live readings for comparison.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,
If you had access to the EMI studio Fidelio, and compared to the live one you do have, you would soon appreciate just why I consider these selected performances so very important, both in respect of realising Beethoven's music, and correcting some of the ideas that were brought about by Klemperer's performances in the studio, particularly the later ones.
The EMI stereo cycle is sterling rather than inspiring. That is the difference.
George
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by Tam
Dear George,
I did have the chance to listen to the studio Fidelio shortly after I purchased the Testament issue, and I am well aware of the difference. Indeed, I don't think I managed to finish it! That said, nothing can touch the Rattle/Berlin Fidelio which is truly remarkable - it remains beyond my comprehension how this great music can be rendered so dull.
However, the thing stopping me from rushing out and buying all of these is that I'm trying to make an impact on my to be listened to shelf which has grown to epic proportions. But in due course.....
regards, Tam
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam,
It is good job that it is all a question of opinion, because I entirely disagree about the Berlin Rattle Fidelio, and am fascinated to read just what aspect of it you actually like. Some of the singing was fine enough, but there my engagement with it ended, I am sorry to say!
Not least is the overweighty Berlin Orchestral sound, which still seems to live in the silken suffocating world of Karajan on this showing!
To think that Rattle had made such nigh HIP performances at Glyndebourne a few years earlier, and from knowing one of the horn players in the Orchestra Of The Age Of Enlightenment, it seems that Rattle at least brought a good deal of energy to it, which is interesting because the Berlin set at tempi not so different to Klemperer's set, but actually sound lethargic in comparison to the rhythmically sprung and very articulate version made with the Philharmonia [EMI studio], let alone the positively driven Covent Garden performance [BBC/Testament]!
Sorry I have to disagree about Rattle being a significant contributor to the Fidelio discography, or indeed the Klemperer studio set being "dull!"
ATB from George
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by Tam
quote:
Originally posted by GFFJ:
It is god job that it is all a question of opinion, because I entirely disagree about the Berlin Rattle Fidelio, and am fascinated to read just what aspect of it you actually like. Some of the singing was fine enough, but there my engagement with it ended, I am sorry to say!
Dear George,
You completely misunderstand me! I do not like the Rattle at all. I am saying I have heard nothing that can touch it for sheer dullness! Klemperer's studio readings are lively in comparison and while the don't completely grab me, they weren't a struggle to get all the way through (as all of Rattle's Beethoven was - not simply the Fidelio). Apologies if I was unclear.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by Tam
Speaking of significant contributors to Fidelio, two are worth of note, in my view.
Mackerras gave a blistering account in two of a series of concerts celebrating his 80th birthday which opened the SCO's 2005 concert season. It was a stunning experience musically, not least the astonishing energy he was able to bring to the leonora III overture that was slotted in between the scenes in act two. Where he gets his energy from I don't know. Unfortunately his Telarc studio recording isn't quite so fine (not least as the SCO Chorus in concert was superior to the Festival Chorus on disc). The BBC did tape it, but I don't suppose it will ever make it to CD, more's the pity.
Colin Davis, whose Beethoven symphonies with the Dresden Staatskapelle I believe I've praised here before, has fairly recently done it with the LSO, and that too is very fine, rather more in the Klemperer mould.
Both sets have the virtue of Christine Brewer's superb Leonora.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Tam!
Complete misunderstanding! I must say my misunderstanding did perplex me!
Have you tackled the Furtwangler set yet? That has some very good points!
ATB from George
Posted on: 04 July 2008 by Tam
Dear George,
It is next on the pile, but I have just had my Furtwangler for the day in the form of another of your wonderful Salzburg recordings - the Bruckner 5 - to which I thought he provided a wonderful sense of structure.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 05 July 2008 by dn1
quote:
dn1 mentions the EMI studio set. I must say that I find the performances rather dull and turgid.
Tam,
I'm sure they are not ideal. Over the years I have heard other recording which have appealed. I return to them because whenever I upgrade my system, these recordings reveal new depths, whilst others are revealed as one-dimensional. Klemperer and Mravinsky have been the biggest benficiaries of the keel on my LP12 - with them, there is more to come, and with others I wonder why I spent my money! Norrington and Rattle in particular had a short shelf life.
Klemperer's 9th on the EMI box is a particular favourite - until I heard it, I didn't understand the music. That is the effect that this box set had on me - Klemperer made the music's profundity accessible. If other performmances can improve on this, great, but for me Klemperer has unlocked the understanding of much music, and for that I will be eternally grateful.
Posted on: 05 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by dn1:
[On Klemperer's EMI studio stereo cycle]
I'm sure they are not ideal. Over the years I have heard other recordings, which have appealed. I return to them because whenever I upgrade my system, these recordings reveal new depths, whilst others are revealed as one-dimensional. Klemperer and Mravinsky have been the biggest beneficiaries of the keel on my LP12 - with them, there is more to come, and with others I wonder why I spent my money! Norrington and Rattle in particular had a short shelf life.
Klemperer's 9th on the EMI box is a particular favourite - until I heard it, I didn't understand the music. That is the effect that this box set had on me - Klemperer made the music's profundity accessible. If other performances can improve on this, great, but for me Klemperer has unlocked the understanding of much music, and for that I will be eternally grateful.
This point, which forgive me for putting into italic, is exactly my
point with respect to the work of Klemperer, and not only in his Beethoven recordings.
quote:
I commend these recording, for anyone who loves the Symphonic Music of Beethoven, and also to those who have found the music is not always so easy. These are so honest and well presented as music making that they compel attention, admiration and even allow for a deepening of understanding of quite why Beethoven himself was a great and revolutionary composer in his day.
I have found in such as the Pastoral, and the early symphonies, where the music is more elusive than The Eroica, The Fifth, and The Choral, that Klemperer’s probing revolutionary [for its time] style, often seems to reveal the sense of the music's reason better than more sweetly gentle or even seemingly better characterised on the surface renderings. This is music making not only to effect a grand introduction, but a lifetime's admiration and love of the music.
I have found that the even more exacting live and early studio performances cited [as the raison d'etre of this thread] are even more probing than the studio set.
I will add that I intend to re-acquire the studio set as well, shortly. I grew up with these performances from a ten year old, and strangely found them utterly compelling from that age.
They are true and honest, and most of all durable readings, that help the listener into the heart of the music. For what other purpose could a performance exist!
ATB from George
Posted on: 05 July 2008 by Noye's Fludde
dn1,
Great point ! Klemperer benefits from a good sound system.
George,
Did I miss it or are you going to comment on the Arrau collaboration ?
Noyes
(PS. Arraw ? Is this a Polish spelling?)
Posted on: 05 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Noah,
I have not yet ordered the Arraw colaboration.
Currently I have the Missa, Fifth, and Sixth Symphonies [in the new Vox releases] awaiting. Plus Annie Fischer's [Hungaraton] Piano Sonata Cycle. So I would think that ordering the double-CD set is with three Concertos is off for another month! It will come with the EMI studio set of the Five Piano Concertos and Choral Fantasy [Barenboim], and Nine Symphonies, which EMI has out at budget price.
I never knew that I would get to the end of the Symphonic part of this thread! But it has been possible and further considerations are in the pipeline!
ATB from George
Posted on: 08 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
*
Posted on: 08 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
This one came today, and is of the same transfers I had alrady been loaned for the consideration.
Nicely presented set, with the Words of the Mass included.
Four days to come from the USA! Not bad at all! Well done amazon.com!
George
Posted on: 12 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
This week has seen the newly acquired 1950 Vox set of the Missa Solemnis, the new 1963 live BBC/Testament issue, and the 1965 EMI studio recording played in a row!
The live Testamant issue wins for music, and looses as a recording! It is fairly dim, though reasonably balanced. The EMI studio recording is resplendent, the Vox set rather less so! All three are remarkably similar from the musical standpoint, though with certain significant differences, particularly in the last movement - the Agnus Dei.
The live set is easily the most spiritual and special here, and this is largely also responsible for the extra length of time the performance takes over the two studio sets.
None of this is slowed down music making but somehow paced to monumental perfection. One never notes the tempi during the performances, so natural are they at allowing the tension and release in the music to flower.
I suppose I would suggest the ordering as 1965, the best, the 1950 next and the live 1963 least fine, but this is based on the notion that recording quality has its part to play. For me the live set has a recording "sufficient to the task" while the two studio sets have more clarity, and the EMI is actually an exemplary effort.
Musically I would rank them as 1963, first, 1965 as marginally more accomplished than 1950. I would recommend that the three should be obtained. I shall not be parting with any of the three.
George
Posted on: 13 July 2008 by Cheese
quote:
It will come with the EMI studio set of the Five Piano Concertos and Choral Fantasy [Barenboim], and Nine Symphonies, which EMI has out at budget price.
I'd love to know what you'll think of the package, FF. I just got it and I think it sounds more or less OK, but I expected far more soundwise.
I have been listening to those 1957-ish EMI symphonies for 20 years on very 'thinly' pressed vinyl, with up to 40 minutes of music per side. By buying the CD's I expected to hear a strongly beefed-up remastered sound, but this is certainly not the case - the cheap vinyl sounded better.
This doesn't apply to the concertos which do sound better than the 1968 vinyl I also own. These appear to be remastered but again, vinyls sounded much more present, I suspect this is due to the usual difference CD/Vinyl.
Posted on: 13 July 2008 by Cheese
*
Posted on: 13 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Cheese,
Please may I ask your given Christian name. Calling you Cheese seems like the wrong kick-off.
I had the Klemperer studio set on CD in their mid-eighties first appearance on CD. They were not as grand as a sound as their stereo LP predecessors, inspite of the fact that I did not care for the sonority of the early to late seventies ASD [stereo] issues. The DMM issues on terribly thin vinyl was actually worse in my view. I have no idea yet how the later 96/24 remasterings from the nineties actually sound. But the sonority is secondary to the effect of this devastating music making.
I will definitely get back with my view on whether the newer remasters represent an improvement. The best versions I have heard were the original English Columbia Mono releases on LP, and this in spite of the general poor quality of transfer of tape to LP at the time.
It gives me hope that the 1955 studio performances of the Eroica, Fifth, and Seventh are actually much finer than any of the EMI stereo studio recordings in these early CD transfers, but these were never early CD releases, but subjected to EMI's most brilliant later digital remastering efforts. The other Klemperer releases on later CDs in stereo such as the Mozart series and the Pathetique remain exemplary, so perhaps I may find the company has got these seminal Beethoven recordings well presented at last.
Three weeks till the next wage input!
ATB from George
Posted on: 13 July 2008 by Cheese
quote:
Please may I ask your given Christian name. Calling you Cheese seems like the wrong kick-off.
You might be right FF but a name is a name
quote:
English Columbia Mono releases on LP
So this is another recording altogether, I guess ? The Philharmonia box is surely on EMI ?
By the way I find this EMI box to be an absolute must-have if one is prepared to skip some of the symphonies. The 5th sounds downright funny in places to say the least, and leaps far behind the usual Toscanini/Furty/Kleiber/Hvk reference. The 1st, 4th and 5th are, in turn, masterpieces of historical importance.
Posted on: 13 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friend, Mr Cheese,
You can call me George, or Fredrik - both pass in reality as they are the first two on my birth certoificate and passport. I really hope the later remasterings do justice to the music making contained!
George
Posted on: 13 July 2008 by Cheese
see edited message above, thanks.
Posted on: 13 July 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Cheese,
All the EMI recordings by Klemperer with the Philharmonia up to about 1963 first saw the light of day in Mono releases on the [EMI] English Columbia label, with subsequent releases in Stereo either on English Columbia [very rare as Columbia was dropped as a label by EMI in the mid sixties] or full priced stereo [ASD series] EMI HMV LPs.
From 1957 on the recordings in mono and stereo were similar edits of the same takes. Interestingly [or not] the stereo release of the 1955 Seventh is made of entirely different takes than the original Columbia Mono LP, because only one complete set of takes existed for the stereo recording, due to tape recorder breakdowns. [For this I will cite the note from the fairly rough mid eighties transfer of this recording coupled with the 1957 recording of the Prometheus Overture on an EMI Studio CD]. The stereo performance [first issued on stereo tape in 1955 or '56, and now restored to full glory on Great Recordings of the Century CD, coupled with the contemporary Mono recording of the Fifth] is even finer than the more tidy [technically] performance as issued in Mono - blessed with splendid natural, merely vaguely directional stereo sonics.
ATB from George
