Are CD-R's made from AIFF files inferior to commercial?

No problem, Hawk, I was wondering the same thing. Does compression occur when the CD-R is made? Are Hi-Res files better than commercial CD's? These are just questions, I have no answers

Anthony

Anthony, it will be interesting to hear feedback on this. I need to do some blind testing when friends are over. I wonder if I'm psychologically predisposed to think the CD-R version doesn't sound as good as the original. Am I biased and not giving it a chance?

Like I don't know objectively if the CD-R I master and burn using XO Wave is better than using iTunes. I know it offers me more options. Some have recommended not burning at higher speeds, more potential for errors. Some also say not too slow a burn, that there's an ideal number. Lot's of trial and error. My ears aren't good enough to hear subtle differences. For sure the CD-R is going to deteriorate over time, but I like the idea of cherry-picking only the songs I want to hear. Keeping my CD's stored away, for safekeeping, as it were. I'm about to get a CDX2 (used), but I don't yet want nor can I afford a Naim Dac, or an HDX. I'm not lazy. I was okay with getting up and moving the needle on an LP12. Or adjusting volume manually. Or changing CD's. But convenience is nice. Getting a Nait3R was so nice, fine-tuning volume from your easy chair. A hard drive with all CD's loaded at your fingertips would be ultimate, but I'm okay without it. So the CDX2 is as high in the Naim food chain as I want to go, for now. I don't want to go any higher digitally than CD playback for now (that is, I don't want any other Naim kit beyond the CDX2, for now). I do use USB and/or stream from my MacBook to my Naim system with an inexpensive M-Audio Dac, using Pure Vinyl.

So, back to the matter at hand, I'm making my own greatest hits, for the convenience. Is there better CD Mastering software than XO Wave? All things being equal, do other members of this forum hear a difference between CD's and CD-R's?

Dave

quote:

I can't quite put it into words, but the original (pressed) CD sounds better than the CD-R made from the comercial disc. Why?

Surely if you have the original CD then a copy can be made without passing through Apple Lossless [ALAC] so that point is moot at best?

I have found that putting CDs into iTunes using ALAC does not reduce the musical enjoyment, and on rare occasions has rescued an unplayble CD [important if further copies of the original are deleted, rare and ultra-expensive] so that ALAC is a viable method of ripping. There ae other advantages to iTunes and ALAC, such as continuity, which from a practicle perspective make better than the CD method ...

I also happen to like the iTunes User Interface ...

ATB from George

George, the iTunes interface is great. I'm using the free version of XO Wave, I may upgrade, I like the customization possible when making my own greatest hits compilation. Resolution is so good in my Naim set-up that I can detect a sonic defect in some songs that I can edit out before I burn. I have other stand-alone editors, but the gent that did XO Wave did a nice job of combining certain features for mastering your own CD-R that go beyond iTunes. And I have Naim HD downloads that I burn to CD, but I still wonder, if I got the CD from Naim, would it sound better?

Dave

quote:

, but I still wonder, if I got the CD from Naim, would it sound better?

This one I cannot answer.

To some extent I believe that if a recorded transfer does not piss me off, then I need search no more! But I am old, and sonic perfection is not my aim so much as discovering some more music - new music or an even finer performances of beloved music - so that the best transfer is only a question I address where the performance seems worth the search for a more [musically] revealing transfer of the basic recording.

If you are interested in that idea, I can give a few exemplars ...

ATB from George

George, for me, well, I have to like the performance, but the clarity of certain vocals or instruments, their realism, really resonates with me. And timing. (okay, Prat). Hearing details I never heard before. My home is so quiet, the quietist dwelling I've ever had. So just a few minutes ago, I was listening to Diana Krall, and I haven't listened to this album since my previous Naim system, and I heard things I've never heard before, and I find that very thrilling.

This week, I put a stand on top of another stand, and it's scary how much more detail there is. An Archi-dee on top of my Mana. So during serious listening, the CD-R's just seem to be lacking compared to the original.

Dave

Make sure iTunes doesnt change the levels or make any other adjustments and that you are using material already in the right format (44/16).

You may even end up with a CDR that sound better than the original CD if you use a high quality CDR! I.e. if the CDR is physically more balanced and even and gives low-jitter it may sound better than the original.

Wow, that's neat - it may sound better? That would be amazing.

Dave

quote:

Posted Sun 21 November 2010 02:30 Hide Post
quote:
, but I still wonder, if I got the CD from Naim, would it sound better?


This one I cannot answer.

To some extent I believe that if a recorded transfer does not piss me off, then I need search no more! But I am old, and sonic perfection is not my aim so much as discovering some more music - new music or an even finer performances of beloved music - so that the best transfer is only a question I address where the performance seems worth the search for a more [musically] revealing transfer of the basic recording.

If you are interested in that idea, I can give a few exemplars ...

ATB from George
Posts: 159 | Location: Worcester, UK | Registered: Thu 30 September 2010

Amen to that! More music, easier access, pretty darn good sound...I can live with that.

After much experimentation, I've found there is a difference in sound quality, and it is affected both by how music is ripped and ultimately burned to a CD-R.

I'm now using XLD on my mac to rip tunes to the hard drive. When I make a compilation, I'm using "Toast" Titanium and a slower burn speed.

George, I'm not sure if you understood what I was trying to say. Since I'm making a compilation, the music comprising that selection has been chosen because of the quality of the performance. My point was, if you're going to transfer music from your collection to a CDR, I would want it to be the best it can be sonically.

Dave

If you are an audiophile, and listening closely, any audio processing you perform may make an audible difference, and since CD's have only 16 bits to work with, going from 16 bits on the original CD, performing processing will increase the effective resolution. But, since you have to go back to 16-bits for the CD, something has to be done with the "extra" resolution. The usual solution to this problem is to use dither, which will sound like a soft noise if you listen very carefully.

If you are not making any changes to the audio at all (other than, eg, reordering songs), you probably want to turn dither off. XO Wave uses dither by default because the standard use-case is for people making at least volume changes. In your case, it sounds like you will want to turn dither off. Turning dither off is the only way to get an exact copy anyway. This is the same with any mastering workstation or DAW to ensure that what you get out is exactly what you put in. In XO Wave, you can go so far as to remove the volume effect to make sure you get out what you put in, but that's not necessary as long as you leave volume and pan at unity.


For apple lossless: I have heard of cases where apple lossless actually fails, especially on modern recordings with lots of clipping, but I haven't experienced this myself.

For duplicates sounding better: there is evidence that this is possible, however, it is more likely that error will accumulate, not be reduced, and this is more serious than what you might fix, sound-quality-wise. Longevity-wise, however, current evidence suggests that long-term stability of high-quality CD-R media is better than pressed media, but don't waste your time with low-quality CD-Rs.

But quality can improve in duplication, at least theoretically. How? It has to do with very low level jitter on the CD. This jitter shouldn't matter as long as the data is read correctly because the data is buffered by the CD player. However, listening tests have shown this is not the case, so the theory goes that there is enough interaction in the electronics to cause playback issues. Through duplication you might be able to reduce this jitter because you are re-clocking and thus eliminating the original jitter. Of course, you are introducing new jitter, so unless your CD R has less jitter (or less objectionable jitter) than the manufacturing plant you will be no better off.

Even the trasport will affect the performance. A dedicated Cd drive (no longer available) tended to do better and burning at the slowest possible speed often helps. Slower speed rips don't hurt either. I've often seen problems with transports not playing CDs that were burned at high speed. Others transports may play it but it does say something of the process. Get a good rip and I'll leave that to the individual but n a PC, I prefer Wavelab or DB for cheap and then a burn at the slowest usable speed of your burner. Sounds like The Hawk is getting to the same place via MAC. I'm obviously not of the can't be bothered mind set. For me, CD quality doesn't have enough wiggle room to lose anything to begin with.

quote:

Originally posted by The Hawk:
George, the iTunes interface is great. I'm using the free version of XO Wave, I may upgrade, I like the customization possible when making my own greatest hits compilation. Resolution is so good in my Naim set-up that I can detect a sonic defect in some songs that I can edit out before I burn. I have other stand-alone editors, but the gent that did XO Wave did a nice job of combining certain features for mastering your own CD-R that go beyond iTunes. And I have Naim HD downloads that I burn to CD, but I still wonder, if I got the CD from Naim, would it sound better?

Question is, what would it take to convince yourself that it was better-or worse?

One of the problems with mastering-grade tools is that you have to apply some degree of judgment to the process, which might lean (or not) toward a generic result or a very singular, perhaps imperfect one.