CD rot
Posted by: Redmires on 19 December 2010
I started ripping my CD collection to a NAS drive this weekend and have already encountered 2 CD's that are suffering some kind of deterioration. With about 20 done so far and 400+ to go it doesn't bode well. The edges of the CD's have areas of fogging/frosting and the final tracks skip when played in the Uniti. EAC manages to rip these tracks but there's plenty of read errors.
Both discs are EMI (Kate Bush - The Red Shoes & David Bowie - The Singles Collection) for what it's worth. All my CD's have always been stored well and looked after (no sign of surface scratches etc) so the concern is that is an age issue.
Has anyone else come across this ?
Both discs are EMI (Kate Bush - The Red Shoes & David Bowie - The Singles Collection) for what it's worth. All my CD's have always been stored well and looked after (no sign of surface scratches etc) so the concern is that is an age issue.
Has anyone else come across this ?
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by George Fredrik
Yes. Out of 550 CDs ripped, about four failed to yield cleanly their last track or two.
There was an issue some years ago with French "MPO" made CDs. Essentially it is corrosion caused by the deposits left by the fingers whilst handling the CDs. I have never had a "Universal" - DG, Philips, or Decca - CD fail like this, but in the past had failures from EMI, Arabesque, Hyperion, Pearl, and other recording companies who on occasion used MPO to press their discs.
The edges were inadequtely lacquered and so the rot got into the alluminium layer and spread.
Nothing is perfect and mostly if the CD is returned, you should get a new and pristine one to work with.
ATB from George
PS: My view is that once one has the Cds ripped you must keep the originals to prove the ownership of the right to listen to the content, an keep a weather eye on regular backing up to at a minimum of two external hard drives to ensure that you do not loose the files. Don't assume that CDs will last for more than thirty years ... even the good ones ...
There was an issue some years ago with French "MPO" made CDs. Essentially it is corrosion caused by the deposits left by the fingers whilst handling the CDs. I have never had a "Universal" - DG, Philips, or Decca - CD fail like this, but in the past had failures from EMI, Arabesque, Hyperion, Pearl, and other recording companies who on occasion used MPO to press their discs.
The edges were inadequtely lacquered and so the rot got into the alluminium layer and spread.
Nothing is perfect and mostly if the CD is returned, you should get a new and pristine one to work with.
ATB from George
PS: My view is that once one has the Cds ripped you must keep the originals to prove the ownership of the right to listen to the content, an keep a weather eye on regular backing up to at a minimum of two external hard drives to ensure that you do not loose the files. Don't assume that CDs will last for more than thirty years ... even the good ones ...
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by naim_nymph
One type of CD rot is known as Bronzing, although bronzing is due to a fault in the manufacturing process and can therefore neither be prevented nor stopped once it has begun.
If you have a cd like this, you may be able to get a replacement from the record label if they still make them.
Debs
If you have a cd like this, you may be able to get a replacement from the record label if they still make them.
Debs
Posted on: 19 December 2010 by Alamanka
Also some music is aging better than other.
In some cases this is actually a blessing.
quote:Don't assume that CDs will last for more than thirty years.
In some cases this is actually a blessing.
Posted on: 22 December 2010 by ianrobertm
I believe this problem appeared in the early 90's. It was said to be due to the use of a particular method of making CD's - which was subsequently discontinued. There was an address to return potentially faulty discs to. I sent back some of mine (classical) & got replacement discs.
IanM
IanM
Posted on: 22 December 2010 by naim_nymph
I've had one cd which was made in the early 90's that 'bronzed' apparently due to the chemicals, dyes, ink (whatever) they used on the libretto sleeve notes which over time affected the CD. That CD was on the Collins record label, sadly a defunct label so i could not get a replacement.
A more recent CD, on Hyperion (p) 2004 which looks okay but starts making loud 'clicking' noises more and more during the last few tracks. Never did learn the cause of this problem but all credit to the Hyperion MD for sending out a replacement 1st class which i received following day, i think he said it was a bad batch .
The latest defective CD i have is the 6th cd of a 6 cd box-set on the Melodiya label (p) 2006, which refuses to be read, although just for a few seconds my Yamaha CD player displayed the total time... started counting down... but stopped, and ejected it.
By the time i'd got to this 6th disc it was a few months past the 30 day Amazon deadline, and Melodiya (in Moscow) did not replay to my email. So don't know what to do about this one. I should get a replacement somehow (?) Technically this may not be a CD Rot disc but it's defiantly duff.
Seems to be quite a few different reasons for CD play failure but fortunately i would think the likelihood is only a fraction of 1%
A more recent CD, on Hyperion (p) 2004 which looks okay but starts making loud 'clicking' noises more and more during the last few tracks. Never did learn the cause of this problem but all credit to the Hyperion MD for sending out a replacement 1st class which i received following day, i think he said it was a bad batch .
The latest defective CD i have is the 6th cd of a 6 cd box-set on the Melodiya label (p) 2006, which refuses to be read, although just for a few seconds my Yamaha CD player displayed the total time... started counting down... but stopped, and ejected it.
By the time i'd got to this 6th disc it was a few months past the 30 day Amazon deadline, and Melodiya (in Moscow) did not replay to my email. So don't know what to do about this one. I should get a replacement somehow (?) Technically this may not be a CD Rot disc but it's defiantly duff.
Seems to be quite a few different reasons for CD play failure but fortunately i would think the likelihood is only a fraction of 1%
Posted on: 23 December 2010 by ianrobertm
I recall several of my 'dodgy' CD's were on Hyperion. Think the pressing plant was called PDO - part of the greater Phillips empire - which was using left-over laser disc technology for their CD's. (Don't forget this is entirely logical - it was the basic LD technology which was used for CD's.)
'Pressed By PDO' was the tell-tale sign, on the disc. The problem was the so-called bronzing, due to I think use of Silver plating & poor laquering. If the laquer failed, the Silver started to oxidise.
Later CD manufacturing uses Aluminium, not Silver, I believe.
None of mine actually failed, but several were replaced FOC, by Phillips. Think they actually tested each disc, or so they said. They replaced ones which had a certain no of errors.
Now how did I remember all that....?
IanM
'Pressed By PDO' was the tell-tale sign, on the disc. The problem was the so-called bronzing, due to I think use of Silver plating & poor laquering. If the laquer failed, the Silver started to oxidise.
Later CD manufacturing uses Aluminium, not Silver, I believe.
None of mine actually failed, but several were replaced FOC, by Phillips. Think they actually tested each disc, or so they said. They replaced ones which had a certain no of errors.
Now how did I remember all that....?
IanM
Posted on: 23 December 2010 by fasterbyelan
quote:Originally posted by ianrobertm:
I recall several of my 'dodgy' CD's were on Hyperion. Think the pressing plant was called PDO - part of the greater Phillips empire - which was using left-over laser disc technology for their CD's. (Don't forget this is entirely logical - it was the basic LD technology which was used for CD's.)
'Pressed By PDO' was the tell-tale sign, on the disc. The problem was the so-called bronzing, due to I think use of Silver plating & poor laquering. If the laquer failed, the Silver started to oxidise.
Later CD manufacturing uses Aluminium, not Silver, I believe.
None of mine actually failed, but several were replaced FOC, by Phillips. Think they actually tested each disc, or so they said. They replaced ones which had a certain no of errors.
Now how did I remember all that....?
IanM
There is a page on the Hyperion web site regarding this issue - see here
Karl
Posted on: 23 December 2010 by ianrobertm
Karl,
Thats it! Amazing. OK, so its Aluminium, not Silver, which rots due to poor laquer. Otherwise I think I got it...!
Well hats off to Hyperion, for doing the right thing for their own output. Well done!
IanM
Thats it! Amazing. OK, so its Aluminium, not Silver, which rots due to poor laquer. Otherwise I think I got it...!
Well hats off to Hyperion, for doing the right thing for their own output. Well done!
IanM
Posted on: 23 December 2010 by Redmires
Don't think it's bronzing. Similar to the swirls seen in the picture from Munch, but without the furring. Just for reference, the black line in the picture below is a human hair. The swirls are below the surface and the printed reverse side is in perfect nick. The good news is that I've had no more occurrences and I'm up to the letter "L", about half way through.
Come to think of it, it looks like something out of the CERN labs !
Come to think of it, it looks like something out of the CERN labs !
Posted on: 09 July 2011 by Starfish iii
Redmires, I had the same problem with exactly the same CD's (Kate Bush and David Bowie) as well as a number of other CDs (Beatles Anthology 1, Best of Paul Carrack and Meatloaf: Bat out of Hell 2). The common link being that they all seem to have been manufactured by EMI in the mid '90s - which I think is different from the bronzing problem which has affected some PDO manufactured CDs.
Did you try to get your CDs replaced by anyone (e.g. EMI)?
Posted on: 09 July 2011 by George Fredrik
When I saw this I assumed that it was a new thread. I find that I have already replied some months ago.
CDs are clearly not of infinite life, and on occasion some older discs [rare but significant] have failed due to oxidisation of the alluminium layer or deterioration of the plastic, or the lacquer. Really no medium has infinite life. shelac deteriorates as it is am organic mix that can actually rot if stored in damp conditions, asnd vinyl is subject to infestation with mould under high humidity conditions. Tape is subject to shedding/drop-outs and stretching [et cetera], as well as oxidisation.
So that we all need to be careful that we preserve our collections of music with back-ups and careful storage to prolong the life of the originals as far as possible.
At least with digital rips [as good as possible within the constrainsts of the condition of what is ripped] can be multiply backed up ...
ATB from George
Posted on: 09 July 2011 by Steven Shaw
I had that happen to the sex pistols compilation 'kiss this'. I eventually got it to rip using EAC. I'm glad now that whatever further deteriation happens to the cd, I will always have a perfect copy to play.