An idea concerning the slow movement of Bach's Sixth Brandenburg
Posted by: George Fredrik on 15 January 2011
An idea concerning the slow movement of Bach's Sixth Brandenburg
Listening again to this from Linde, Woldike. and, best of all, Busch, each one makes the turn on the trill rhythmic semi-quavers, and this is wrong if the trill is faster, which they are in each of these estimable recordings.
Edwin Fischer showed the power of expression of the "slow trill" - much slower than could be played from the purely technical perspective.
How about the upper initial note being held almost like a long appogiatura, and then a really slow shake followed by the "turn" which would be a little faster than the turn at a measured semi-quaver rhythm as seems musically inevitably correct and deeply expressive? I reckon than this would make a "correct reading of the Trill as a whole" and be immensely satisfying at the slow tempo involved?
Its a real interpretive idea, and not just a guess, though it is a posibility based on the musicological investigations of Dolmesch and Donnington!
Please discuss!
ATB from George
Listening again to this from Linde, Woldike. and, best of all, Busch, each one makes the turn on the trill rhythmic semi-quavers, and this is wrong if the trill is faster, which they are in each of these estimable recordings.
Edwin Fischer showed the power of expression of the "slow trill" - much slower than could be played from the purely technical perspective.
How about the upper initial note being held almost like a long appogiatura, and then a really slow shake followed by the "turn" which would be a little faster than the turn at a measured semi-quaver rhythm as seems musically inevitably correct and deeply expressive? I reckon than this would make a "correct reading of the Trill as a whole" and be immensely satisfying at the slow tempo involved?
Its a real interpretive idea, and not just a guess, though it is a posibility based on the musicological investigations of Dolmesch and Donnington!
Please discuss!
ATB from George
Posted on: 15 January 2011 by mikeeschman
When I learned to play baroque trills, I learned by rote in imitating my teachers. They never encouraged me to look beyond that, and I never felt the urge to do so.
How things change!
I going to give the slow movement of the 6th Brandenburg a couple of good listens, then read a while in "Baroque Music : Style and performance : a Handbook" by Donington @ 1982.
Then maybe I can ask some reasonable questions.
I would like to know more about the execution of ornaments in the baroque, and George seems ready to illuminate that topic.
How things change!
I going to give the slow movement of the 6th Brandenburg a couple of good listens, then read a while in "Baroque Music : Style and performance : a Handbook" by Donington @ 1982.
Then maybe I can ask some reasonable questions.
I would like to know more about the execution of ornaments in the baroque, and George seems ready to illuminate that topic.
Posted on: 15 January 2011 by pe-zulu
Dear George
I suppose, that you first and foremost think of the trill over the third note of the main theme. This is my opinion -which has evolved over many years, reading treatises on the subject and listening to lots of different interpretations - of how this trill should be played: As the title of the movement is Adagio ma non tanto, the trills should be executed rather slowly and in one long slur. The trills should begin on the beat and they should not be played metrically, but begin slowly and accelerate a little until the concluding turn. Bach does not indicate in the score, whether this trill should be prepared or not. In his ornamentation table for Friedemann both possibilities exist. In all cases we have to let good taste guide us. I think it is musically the most satisfying solution to play the trills prepared (preceded by a long appoggiatura beginning on the upper note). But there are arguments for beginning this trill upon the main note, because the distance between the preceding note and the note with the trill is a rather big and special interval (a seventh), and this will becomme "blurred or smoothed out" (tramsformed into a sixth) if the trill is played prepared. Gerhard Weinberger in his book "Zur Interpretation der Orgelmusik J S Bach´s" refers to the fugue subject in Bach´s f-minor fugue BWV 534, the beginning of which has got a rather similar construction with a thematic septime. For the above mentioned reasons he thinks the trill in this subject should begin on the main note. The fugue is in the minor mode, and I think Weinbergers point is most relevant in the minor mode (diminished septime), but there are also in the 6th Brandenburg concerto more statements of the theme in the minor mode with diminished septime. I can understand Weinbergers point, but my taste tells me, that he is wrong. However I may be wrong.
ATB
Poul
I suppose, that you first and foremost think of the trill over the third note of the main theme. This is my opinion -which has evolved over many years, reading treatises on the subject and listening to lots of different interpretations - of how this trill should be played: As the title of the movement is Adagio ma non tanto, the trills should be executed rather slowly and in one long slur. The trills should begin on the beat and they should not be played metrically, but begin slowly and accelerate a little until the concluding turn. Bach does not indicate in the score, whether this trill should be prepared or not. In his ornamentation table for Friedemann both possibilities exist. In all cases we have to let good taste guide us. I think it is musically the most satisfying solution to play the trills prepared (preceded by a long appoggiatura beginning on the upper note). But there are arguments for beginning this trill upon the main note, because the distance between the preceding note and the note with the trill is a rather big and special interval (a seventh), and this will becomme "blurred or smoothed out" (tramsformed into a sixth) if the trill is played prepared. Gerhard Weinberger in his book "Zur Interpretation der Orgelmusik J S Bach´s" refers to the fugue subject in Bach´s f-minor fugue BWV 534, the beginning of which has got a rather similar construction with a thematic septime. For the above mentioned reasons he thinks the trill in this subject should begin on the main note. The fugue is in the minor mode, and I think Weinbergers point is most relevant in the minor mode (diminished septime), but there are also in the 6th Brandenburg concerto more statements of the theme in the minor mode with diminished septime. I can understand Weinbergers point, but my taste tells me, that he is wrong. However I may be wrong.
ATB
Poul
Posted on: 16 January 2011 by George Fredrik
Bach does not indicate in the score, whether this trill should be prepared or not. In his ornamentation table for Friedemann both possibilities exist. In all cases we have to let good taste guide us.
Dear Poul,
This is the real truth, and definitely there is a wide range of possibilities within stylish good taste and the musical possibilities.
Thanks for more references on the subject. The trill in baroque music is such a widely used device and is really far more than a beautifying aspect. It is often a structural element, and most of all one that that heightens the emotional tension as well.
Fascinating to read of the possibility of starting the trill on the main note and not the higher one! I had never thought of that in this case! Or the significance in deciding based on the interval of the preceding note in the line! As Weinberger writes.
The one thing I don't really understand in so many performances is the adoption of a fast trill that runs into a slower turn. I have never really come across a really slow trill in this piece of music.
Do you know of a performance on records where the trill is played slowly enough to accelerate a little into the turn?
ATB from George
Dear Poul,
This is the real truth, and definitely there is a wide range of possibilities within stylish good taste and the musical possibilities.
Thanks for more references on the subject. The trill in baroque music is such a widely used device and is really far more than a beautifying aspect. It is often a structural element, and most of all one that that heightens the emotional tension as well.
Fascinating to read of the possibility of starting the trill on the main note and not the higher one! I had never thought of that in this case! Or the significance in deciding based on the interval of the preceding note in the line! As Weinberger writes.
The one thing I don't really understand in so many performances is the adoption of a fast trill that runs into a slower turn. I have never really come across a really slow trill in this piece of music.
Do you know of a performance on records where the trill is played slowly enough to accelerate a little into the turn?
ATB from George
Posted on: 16 January 2011 by George Fredrik
I have just listened to Linde, then Woldike, and lastly Busch again in this movement.
Linde's players get closest to a slow trill and those of Woldike don't make a turn at the end!
Busch uses multiple instruments on the line rather than a soloist and the feel is different altogether, though has an intense beauty to it, which is surprisingly satisfying in spite of being the least close to what is understood a correct style! The trill is quick and very nearly measured almost without an acceleration, and the turn is much slower.
But it would be nice to encounter a trully slow trill in this crucial place in the music!
ATB from George
Linde's players get closest to a slow trill and those of Woldike don't make a turn at the end!
Busch uses multiple instruments on the line rather than a soloist and the feel is different altogether, though has an intense beauty to it, which is surprisingly satisfying in spite of being the least close to what is understood a correct style! The trill is quick and very nearly measured almost without an acceleration, and the turn is much slower.
But it would be nice to encounter a trully slow trill in this crucial place in the music!
ATB from George
Posted on: 16 January 2011 by mikeeschman
This one is beyond me. I did some reading and understand the basic rules for the execution of a trill. It will require a good deal of further study to understand their application.
It has been a good read so far.
It has been a good read so far.
Posted on: 16 January 2011 by pe-zulu
quote:Originally posted by George Johnson:
But it would be nice to encounter a trully slow trill in this crucial place in the music!
I can not "from the top of my head" tell if I own a recording with the trill executed as I suggested above. Maybe this trill only exists in my head, so I hear it in this way, when I read the score. However I have just listened to La Petite Bande´s live performance of the 6th Brandenburg from the early 1990es. Firstly the pace of the slow movement is too fast to my taste, even if it is beautifully flowing. The second violist (uncredited), who announces the subject in the bars 1-2, prepares the trill with a rather long appoggiatura, and he/she plays the trill unmesured but too fast only allowing a tad acceleration before the turn. The first violist (probably Sigiswald Kuijken), who answers the second violist with the subject, plays a shorter appogiatura than the second violist. The following trill is unmeasured but fast and in even tempo including the turn. So they play the trill in rather different ways. When the cello/continuo announce the first four notes of the subject (from bar 40), they play the trill fast, beginning on the upper note but without appoggiatura. So either this performance was insufficiently prepared in the details, or Kuijken does not find this to be an important issue. Some (certainly not I) may even find, that variations of this kind are desirable. My problems with recalling how the trill in question is executed on the different recordings I own of the work may accordingly be due to the fact, that it is inconsistently executed on the majority of the recordings. I will keep an "eagle´s ear" upon this trill, when I listen to the work in the future.
ATB Poul
Posted on: 16 January 2011 by George Fredrik
Dear pe zulu,
The first time I really noticed this trill as significant was in the old Busch recording, long after I knew these works very well and having already owned the Menuhin Bath Festival set, and Pinnock on Archive.
At the time I had just bought an ancient early edition of Dolmetch's book, "On the Interpretation of Seventeenth and Eighteenth Century Music," and it made me study the Busch recording rather carefully!
Immediately I was loaned the Donnington book, which is more detailed, drier, and probably more scholarly on the same subject, and so I formed in my minds ear the style of trill that I had never heard in perfomance but one day hoped to!
If I read the score it is how it comes out for me! Earlier I listened to BWV 534 - Prelude and Fugue in F Minor - and I see the parallel, but it is much more serious toned music than the Adagio ma non tanto in the Sixth Brandenburg for sure.
Best wishes from George
The first time I really noticed this trill as significant was in the old Busch recording, long after I knew these works very well and having already owned the Menuhin Bath Festival set, and Pinnock on Archive.
At the time I had just bought an ancient early edition of Dolmetch's book, "On the Interpretation of Seventeenth and Eighteenth Century Music," and it made me study the Busch recording rather carefully!
Immediately I was loaned the Donnington book, which is more detailed, drier, and probably more scholarly on the same subject, and so I formed in my minds ear the style of trill that I had never heard in perfomance but one day hoped to!
If I read the score it is how it comes out for me! Earlier I listened to BWV 534 - Prelude and Fugue in F Minor - and I see the parallel, but it is much more serious toned music than the Adagio ma non tanto in the Sixth Brandenburg for sure.
Best wishes from George