The County Court: nymph Vs Car-Dealership
Posted by: naim_nymph on 23 October 2008
The case concerned a contract of vehicle service between myself, and a very prestigious, ‘posh and professional looking’ local car dealership, who represents the make of vehicle in question (that I own), and how they breached the contract by misdiagnosing the fault on my vehicle.
The misdiagnosis led to much unnecessary work on my vehicle at great expense which was passed on to me.
Also, some of the unnecessary work carried out by the car-dealership was beyond their technical abilities, and as such, my vehicle was presented back to me in a faulty condition caused by their lack of skill.
Very soon after the service it became very apparent that there were discrepancies and problems, and although my findings were explained and discussed with the staff at the car-dealership, their attitude was to deny any wrong doing, blame other parties, and blame my vehicle for having other faults.
It was proven that they did not have the skills to repair my vehicle and preferred to cover up their bad workmanship with deceptive reasoning.
The only symptom the vehicle had, was an ‘Engine Warning Light’ that came on intermittently so the job for the car-dealership, was to diagnose why this light came on, and if necessary, fix the fault.
The car-dealership, using a code gained from the computer management, diagnosed an impending fuel-pump failure, and the need to remove the fuel-pump, send it off to a specialist for a “strip down” and “overhaul“.
Being a blonde woman of middle age years, I foolishly trusted them at this moment in time, and with the worry around the reliability of my car, I let them go ahead with this service. The car was with them off the road for a week.
The bill came to £922 : (
But the car-dealership also presented my vehicle back to me in a faulty condition caused by their erroneous servicing technique, and thus, the vehicle eventually broke down (due to non-start) and was taken via recovery truck to 'pump specialist' garage where upon I had to pay an additional £300 for them to diagnose and correct the problems to my engine that the car-dealership had caused. They said that the ’car-dealership had not put the pump back in properly and the pump timing was wrong!
All this clearly documented in engineer reports, letters, quotations etc.
It turned out to be rather easy gaining the information of what happened. The car-dealership asked me, after a few weeks of complaining about the car being far worse than before, if I would mind going round directly to the pump specialist and talking to them about it, because after all, they rebuilt the pump and it’s obviously their problem really etc…
I was quite surprised to find the pump-specialist was another drive-in service garage only half a mile away from the dealership. So I went around to speak with them.
What they told me was amazing!
“Rebuild your pump”? said the man at the Pump Specialist place,
“No, we didn’t rebuild your pump, it didn’t need one, there was nothing wrong with it!
I said that they must have done something because this has cost me £922 and their cost to the dealership on my invoice is £415, to which he replied,
“Here’s the paperwork and receipt… it was £300. We changed a faulty advance solenoid and spent a couple of hours labour checking the pump on a test-rig. I don’t know why they took the pump off just for a solenoid failure, it’s a very easy thing to diagnose and change.. Takes less than an hour“!
Trading Standards questioned the dealership about the discrepancy between the £415 they charged me and the £300 cost from the pump specialist… The dealership blamed the pump specialist for a telephone quote error and quickly sent me a refund of £115
(The other £622 was for the 'unnecessary' pump removal and refit).
They also said that it did not matter if the pump was not rebuilt, it was fixed, and the procedure they used was the correct ‘Technical Instruction’ from the Motor Corporation.
(So, as far as they’re concerned, they did a good ol’ back slapping job).
The evidence I produced in the court was contained within a 70 page file, 11 pages being my ‘statement of case‘, and an index to over a dozen letters of complaint, letters to Trading Standards, engineer reports, costs and technical facts and quotations. All the proof one would need to fully demonstrate a successful claim.
Proved in documentation was the fact that the only reason the Engine Warning Light was coming on intermittently, was a ‘minor’ electrical component in need of replacement. This component (an advance solenoid) has a cost of £90, requires 1 hour labour, and plus VAT the total cost to customer that should be £171. (There is no need for expensive pump removal/refit).
£922 less £115 refund = £807
breakdown repair bill = £300
Legal expenses....... = £200
Out of pocket expenses= £100
Total cost of case......£1400ish and not including approx' 100 hours of various activity.
The law I used against this car-dealership in the county court was the ‘Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 by failing to repair my car using reasonable care and skill.
(The man at Trading standards told me the optimum word here is ‘reasonable’).
~<>~
Do you think they were reasonable?
Anyway, it’s all over now : )
So how do you think I got on at the County Court?
nymph
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by Nigel Cavendish
The bottom line is that nymph had her day in court and has had a judgement. She is not happy that she did not get all she wanted but that is both life and the law.
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by bornwina
quote:
You know it happens.
Not here it doesn't. Newbury? I'd guess Savernake
quote:
The garage (main dealer) accepted their mistake and sent the technician for retraining and sacked the supervisor.
So glad you didn't extrapolate your experiences to condemn the whole industry as seems to be the vogue.
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by bornwina
Sorry Guinless - missed you there
quote:
It's called Customer Service. As soon as they realised that they were not familiar with that type of pump they should have either sent nymph to the specialist or took the car there themselves, for which they could have charged a sensible administration fee. Once her car was fixed she would have been really pleased and used that dealers again.
Its called commercial suicide in my book. From the sounds of things they were happy to take the job on so they did, albeit subbing out the pump repair.
quote:
They should have checked the injection timing and road tested it too. Possibly including keeping it overnight to ensure that cold starting was satisfactory.
Agreed - but maybe they were being haranged by the owner wanting her car back and were eager to oblige? Or maybe they are crap - but my point is don't tar all of us with the same brush - which YOU haven't!
quote:
Really. A good friend of mine specialises in tuning, much of his work involves Diesels with modern management systems. He often receives work from main dealers who have run out of ideas...
...because they don't have the kit or expertise whereas he does - its called sub contracting specialist repair. I suspect you are failing to differentiate between genuine diesel specialists (who usually have diesel system manufacturer endorsement and overhaul HP pumps and injectors for example) and those talented independents (such as your mate?) who have created a bit of a local reputation in the trade. Take a car with non diesel fault to the former type and they won't have a clue or any interest in it.
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by dn1
For many years I have driven one particular make of car, almost all of them bought secondhand. I know the dealers to be useless (in the main, I've found occasional exceptions) and for the last fifteen years have used a specialist, non-franchise garage which understands these cars, and restores older ones.
However, this specialist is over an hour away, so I occasionally use the main dealer, normally for warrranty work. In March this year they offered me a great deal on a set of four new tyres, so I had them fit them. Car subsequently had a steering vibration, so I took it back for re-balancing. No improvement, so it went back again. The third time was ten days ago, rebalanced again, still not right, worse than before. They asked me to book it in again for them to examine the steering and suspension - possibly a driveshaft, they said. It couldn't be the wheel balance, they'd checked/rebalanced it three times.
I didn't re-book with them, I took it to my specialist today to get the steering/driveshaft checked - he drove the car, then drove it straight to his local tyre fitter, who checked and rebalanced. One was fine, one was a little out, two were badly out. Problem now solved - after over six months!
FFS, this is a manufacturer-owned main dealer, and they can't balance wheels! Worse still, I'm soft enough to put up with it for six months, and then accept their verdict that it's not the wheel balance!
I've just phoned the main dealer to report this, but the relevant staff had all gone home at 5.25pm. So I'll call again tomorrow. I'm not mad, it's not worth getting upset about now it's fixed - but I do want to let them know I know they're incompetent.
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by Guinnless
quote:
Originally posted by bornwina:
Sorry Guinless - missed you there
S'ok
quote:
Its called commercial suicide in my book. From the sounds of things they were happy to take the job on so they did, albeit subbing out the pump repair.
I disagree but that's another matter. They were happy to take on the job even though they didn't know how to do it properly. I suspect that it was lack of skill rather than couldn't be arsed but maybe they had pressure from managers to grab all the work they can and tried to muddle through. Either way the manager should have ensured that it was sorted ASAP FOC
quote:
Agreed - but maybe they were being haranged by the owner wanting her car back and were eager to oblige? Or maybe they are crap - but my point is don't tar all of us with the same brush - which YOU haven't!
Thanks.
Another mate of mine is a Service Manager and I know he works to provide the best service.
quote:
...because they don't have the kit or expertise whereas he does - its called sub contracting specialist repair. I suspect you are failing to differentiate between genuine diesel specialists (who usually have diesel system manufacturer endorsement and overhaul HP pumps and injectors for example) and those talented independents (such as your mate?) who have created a bit of a local reputation in the trade. Take a car with non diesel fault to the former type and they won't have a clue or any interest in it.
Yes, I understand subcontracting
Sorry, I was just demonstrating that it wasn't just Dealers who can check and diagnose faults.
My mate 'live mapped' my car just to give you an
idea of what he specialises in. And I built the engine
Cheers
Steve
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by naim_nymph
My cheque for £478.75 from the Main Car Dealership, arrived this morning, 1st Class Recorded Post.
Better get it into my bank account quick! : )
nymph
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by bornwina
quote:
My cheque for £478.75 from the Main Car Dealership, arrived this morning, 1st Class Recorded Post.
Better get it into my bank account quick! :
Amen to that - failure rate is alarming right now.
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by bornwina
quote:
My mate 'live mapped' my car just to give you an idea of what he specialises in. And I built the engine
I had a customer map his lotus on his laptop while it was being checked for MOT exhaust emmissions!
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by naim_nymph
The Main Car Dealership
Wrong diagnosis
Wrong procedure used to repair (due to deception)
Dishonest accounting
Skills Problem
Not telling the truth
The reason the Judge found the Car Dealership guilty, is because he wanted to punish them for letting their side down causing some embarrassment to the Judge’s master, the multi-billion-pound Motor Corporation.
The Judge’s have the power of the law to protect their guilty friends in high places!
If only they’d put the pump in correctly, I would never have found out that my fully rebuilt pump had not actually been rebuilt at all, because there was nothing wrong with it, I also would not have found out that the pump was removed unnecessarily, or about the very deceptive ‘technical instruction’ from the Motor Corporation, designed to exploit the unwary consumer.
In fact would still be driving around in my car today saying that my pump had received a jolly good rebuild job last year, when in reality all it had was a small minor electrical component replaced that should have cost only 1 hour labour and 90 quid for the part!
Bornwina, what part of “Getting Ripped Off” don’t you understand?
I like to think it's because you are a good honest and clever mechanic who would never get involved with any of the above : )
nymph
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by bornwina
quote:
Bornwina, what part of “Getting Ripped Off” don’t you understand?
I like to think it's because you are a good honest and clever mechanic who would never get involved with any of the above : )
WTF? What part of 'devil's advocate' don't you understand?
My issue with the thrust of your posts is you take a swipe at the whole industry etc etc as well as your bizarre conspiracy theories.
ps I don't like to get my hands dirty if I can help it.
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by naim_nymph
quote:
Originally posted by bornwina:
WTF? What part of 'devil's advocate' don't you understand?
.
There is no Devil, but there are mega-rich men with big houses, expensive yachts, and far too much power, they laugh at working class people like you and I who sucker to their cause!
nymph
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by rodwsmith
quote:
WTF? What part of 'devil's advocate' don't you understand?
My issue with the thrust of your posts is you take a swipe at the whole industry etc etc as well as your bizarre conspiracy theories.
Well, if I may play devil's advocate for a moment, whilst it is indeed unfair to tar an entire industry with the same brush based on one person's experience, I genuinely do not think I have ever met anyone who has used main dealer servicing post-warranty who does not have a horror story of some description. In my particular case I have been definitely overcharged, and had unnecessary work done, on two occasions (to my knowledge) by two different main dealers, and I've only ever used three.
Sorry, but whilst there are rogue doctors, lawyers and others, this rate of poor service is seemingly just much higher in your industry.
I might be basing my prejudice on personal experience, but as I say, I don't know a single person who cannot tell a similar tale. I don't doubt that you are an exception to this 'rule' - if it is one - and that there are plenty of other excellent and honest people in your industry, but I fear you work in an area that people simply do not trust, and frankly for good reason.
"Mechanic bashing" it may be, but there's no smoke without fire.
Why else is it that once people have found a mechanic (or plumber/builder for that matter) whom they trust, they cling to them like glue? Because being forced to change mechanic is something the rest of us dread.
I don't know what your industry can do about it, but there are a lot of rotten apples out there, sorry.
Rod
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by bornwina
quote:
Well, if I may play devil's advocate for a moment, whilst it is indeed unfair to tar an entire industry with the same brush based on one person's experience, I genuinely do not think I have ever met anyone who has used main dealer servicing post-warranty who does not have a horror story of some description. In my particular case I have been definitely overcharged, and had unnecessary work done, on two occasions (to my knowledge) by two different main dealers, and I've only ever used three.
Sorry, but whilst there are rogue doctors, lawyers and others, this rate of poor service is seemingly just much higher in your industry.
I might be basing my prejudice on personal experience, but as I say, I don't know a single person who cannot tell a similar tale. I don't doubt that you are an exception to this 'rule' - if it is one - and that there are plenty of other excellent and honest people in your industry, but I fear you work in an area that people simply do not trust, and frankly for good reason.
"Mechanic bashing" it may be, but there's no smoke without fire.
Why else is it that once people have found a mechanic (or plumber/builder for that matter) whom they trust, they cling to them like glue? Because being forced to change mechanic is something the rest of us dread.
I don't know what your industry can do about it, but there are a lot of rotten apples out there, sorry.
Rod
Rod, I won't disect your annecdotal assumptions or "prejudice" but I will say the fact of the matter is that people simply love to hate trades in general and the motor trade specifically.
It seems to me that the 'fear of getting ripped off' that some people (not all by any means) have before they even walk through the door that is perpetrated by the lacklustre service of some but significantly ramped up by the media, talking shops like this and, no doubt, many dinner party stories and the vocal minority added to the lack of anything tangible in your hand after the 300 quid service that you didn't have before that makes the whole business pretty depressing at times - how would you fancy ringing Don (above) and telling him his brakes are worn out? He thinks you're trying to stiff him from the off!
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by bornwina
quote:
There is no Devil, but there are mega-rich men
Not in the motor trade there aint.
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by dn1
quote:
quote:
There is no Devil, but there are mega-rich men
Not in the motor trade there aint.
One of the reasons I use my specialist is that he is richer than me - and he doesn't need to rip me off to make a living, because people travel from all parts of the UK to use his services. He is genuinely one of the best in his field.
Bit of a bugger twice a year, because he closes down to go to Barbados.
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by Don Atkinson
quote:
I'd guess Savernake
...er, nope.
But I can see your "logic"
Think back a while, Pangbourne, before Newbury had a main dealer.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by Don Atkinson
quote:
how would you fancy ringing Don (above) and telling him his brakes are worn out? He thinks you're trying to stiff him from the off!
..err nope (again!)
He
knows you're trying to stiff him from the start. There are a few exceptions, but the are definitely few [and far between]
Of course, Which? has it in for main dealers big time. Absolutely no basis of course (other than a few member surveys), and totally unreasonable of them...........
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by bornwina
quote:
Think back a while, Pangbourne, before Newbury had a main dealer.
Can't think of Newbury without thinking of that well known Burger King franchisee Gowrings. Is there Jag in Newbury - used to be in Pangbourne I seem to remember - Lancaster?
quote:
He knows you're trying to stiff him from the start. There are a few exceptions, but the are definitely few [and far between]
You really must start seeing that glass as half full - that's not a healthy approach to life!
quote:
Of course, Which? has it in for main dealers big time. Absolutely no basis of course (other than a few member surveys), and totally unreasonable of them...........
Weird that, I was looking through the national CSI scores for the humble franchise I represent today (as administered by an independent third party I hasten to add and without the need to sell magazines) - I think it was around 80% completely satisfied leaving, I suppose, say 5% not entirely satisfied, 5% a little disgruntled, 5% a bit pissed and 5% absolutely freaking livid - not good, not bad, not representative of some of the views here but that's no surpeise.
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by Don Atkinson
Rivervale.
And Savernake morphed into something else a few years ago, changed its staff and went downhill along the lines outlined above.
I still use them, but its a real bugger having to sort out the jobs that really need doing, from the add-ons.
I tend to place more trust in independent surveys than (motor) industry ones.
Cheers
Don
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by bornwina
quote:
I still use them, but its a real bugger having to sort out the jobs that really need doing, from the add-ons.
Not wishing to teach you to suck eggs and I take it you are referring to wear parts picked up at service. Ask them to show you the old parts, if its brakes ask whether they will go to the next service? if its discs ask what the manufacturers minimum thickness is and ask them to mic the disc, if its suspension ask would it fail an mot, get a quote for diagnostic checks up front, ask their labour rate and the manufactuers published repair time for the job in question, if your car is over 3 years old do they provide a lower labour rate?
As a rule of thumb brake fluid is usually every 2 years, anti freeze every 5, ac refridgerant I wouldn't bother with unless efficiency has deteriorated, pollen filter every other service, allignment is only necessary if peculiar tyre wear
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by Don Atkinson
quote:
Not wishing to teach you to suck eggs and I take it you are referring to wear parts picked up at service. Ask them to show you the old parts, if its brakes ask whether they will go to the next service? if its discs ask what the manufacturers minimum thickness is and ask them to mic the disc, if its suspension ask would it fail an mot, get a quote for diagnostic checks up front, ask their labour rate and the manufactuers published repair time for the job in question, if your car is over 3 years old do they provide a lower labour rate?
As a rule of thumb brake fluid is usually every 2 years, anti freeze every 5, ac refridgerant I wouldn't bother with unless efficiency has deteriorated, pollen filter every other service, allignment is only necessary if peculiar tyre wear
Jesus, do I really have to put that much effort into getting a fair, reliable service or repair at a decent price? the service book lists the standard service items. Tell me what else is wrong and needs doing. But don't dream up add-ons.
Try "needs new discs because they are badly pitted" - No they aren't, I have checked them within the last few days.
"needs new brake pads" nope, they will definitely last well beyond the next service. If they don't the brake warning light will let me know well before we get metal/metal
I could go on....
cheers
Don
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by bornwina
quote:
Jesus, do I really have to put that much effort into getting a fair, reliable service or repair at a decent price?
Only if you are dealing with a dealer you do not trust which you seem to be - I merely suggest a couple of questions you can ask next time you think you are being ripped off - take it or leave it.
Posted on: 28 October 2008 by Nigel Cavendish
quote:
Originally posted by naim_nymph:
The reason the Judge found the Car Dealership guilty, is because he wanted to punish them for letting their side down causing some embarrassment to the Judge’s master, the multi-billion-pound Motor Corporation.
The Judge’s have the power of the law to protect their guilty friends in high places!
nymph
nymph, I really think you ought to move on. Small Claims Courts don't find anyone guilty or not guilty. They find for the plaintiff either wholly, in part (as in your case) or not at all.
If you believe your judge was corrupt, you should complain, with whatever evidence you have (other than not being satisfied with the outcome of your case) to the Lord Chancellor.
Posted on: 29 October 2008 by naim_nymph
Nigel,
i suppose your right, it's a good idea to move on. Getting the cheque yesterday helped me feel a bit better, i've put it in the bank already, and soon i may invest it safely in the hands of my local naim audio dealer shop.
I think the word 'corrupt' is maybe a bit strong a word for describing the judge, but imo his decision is a very lazy one. It's so easy to whack the dealership for doing the bodge whilst failing the cunning part of the claim (from a humble nymph) against the might of corporate greed.
I have considered complaining about this verdict, but didn't know who to complain to.
I think the Lord Chancellor would be no more interested in my case than Lord Buckethead, and also my source of evidence, information and fine ally to my great cause has been recently terminated with an shocking unexpected closure...
http://www.am-online.com/news/story/?nID=42898287It really saddened me to read about it : (
nymph
Posted on: 29 October 2008 by Don Atkinson
quote:
his decision is a very lazy one
In my experience (twice) the Small Claims Court hovers around the neutral point - neither side wins outright. Proper courts are no more reliable - believe me, I've been an Expert Witness a few times. Its usually better to settle out of court.
It takes an awful lot of evidence, presented very carefully (not smug, not labourious, not superficially.....) to convince the registrar to move to one side or the other.
You won't get anywhere by claiming the "Beak" was corrupt. Even if he enjoys annual holidays on the Main Dealer's yacht in Corfu!! Forget it!
Even with a "competent" and "honest" Main Dealer (now there's an oxymoron if ever) you would probably have paid for the diagonosis, remove pump and solonoid attached, fit new pump and new solonoid attached, re-set timing, test-drive, and a plastic seat-cover to keep your interior clean. (that's cycnicsm.....)
Cost? Lets call it a Grand.
Not much different to your actual spend. Take a deep breath - you are in good company.
Cheers
Don
