New Naim DAC at my house today - initial thoughts and experiments.
Posted by: GrahamFinch on 11 December 2009
I have been lucky enough to acquire a new Naim DAC from my dealer today. To put things into perspective for you I want to use it instead of a Dacmagic used with a SOnos wireless system to stream music from my PC to my main system (cds3\555ps\552\250-2, Allaes, powerlines and hilines etc. The digital cable is an Atlas coax cable.
Initially I played a few tracks on the existing Sonos\Dacmagic and then connected the Naim Dac. At this point I used the same Chord Cobra 3 phono to din lead that I used with the Dacmagic. Bearing in mind the Naim DAC was just out of the box it sounded pretty good but with a degree of harshness and sibilence I did not like.
As Naim recommend DIN connections I swapped the Cobra 3 for the standard Naim grey interconnect. This improved the sibilence but maybe at the expense of something else. Overall thought I thought it sounded more natural and less strident. Possibly the edginess would have eased anyway as the unit burns in but I would suggest it is something to consider.
After a while I used one of my Hilines to replace the standard interconnect and this borught about a fantastic imporvement, in the way it usually does. CLeaner, more dynamic, quieter background, better separation etc. A while later I substituted the standard mains lead with a Powerline and another huge improvement followed. This brought the overallpresentation towards the sound I get from the CDS3\555ps
I will try over the weekend to see which cable gives most benefit i.e if forced to choose only one cable whether it should be the Powerline or the Hiline.
I listened happily for ages and then the final experiment was to add the 555ps. It is worth pointing out that wHen adding an external ps the DAC itself must still be powered from its own power socket. It is not necessary to use a Powerline on the DAC at this point as it will only power the software side of the unit whilst the external ps will power the D\A conversion side of things. So at this point the Powerline was connceted to the 555ps. This took the setup to another dimension but whether the setup rivalled or beat my CDS3\555ps is hard to say at this stage. I only have one 555ps so would have needed to swap everything about. I sense the DAC\555ps was probably slightly more laid back than the CDS3 but I will hopefully try that experiment later this weekend.
My conclusions so far are that the new DAC is very good but can sound significantly better with the Hiline and Powerline added. I would suggest if you have a higher end system you really ought to consider these as a priority as this setup represents great value in my view, especially considering the significant extra cost of an external ps.
I would like to have tried a Naim DC1 digital cable instead of my Atlas as I have read that these are very good, albeit £225 each. Presumably the DAC was designed around this cable. Unfortunately my dealer did not have one to try.
The Sonos system works a treat with the DAC and is a very convenient way of listening to music.I haven't yet tried playing from a USB stick or any other digital source.
My overall conclusion based on a few hours listening is that I will not be retuning the DAC to the dealer and will be enquiring about the possibility of getting a deal on another Powerline and a Hiline.
For those of you waiting I think it will be worth it.
Initially I played a few tracks on the existing Sonos\Dacmagic and then connected the Naim Dac. At this point I used the same Chord Cobra 3 phono to din lead that I used with the Dacmagic. Bearing in mind the Naim DAC was just out of the box it sounded pretty good but with a degree of harshness and sibilence I did not like.
As Naim recommend DIN connections I swapped the Cobra 3 for the standard Naim grey interconnect. This improved the sibilence but maybe at the expense of something else. Overall thought I thought it sounded more natural and less strident. Possibly the edginess would have eased anyway as the unit burns in but I would suggest it is something to consider.
After a while I used one of my Hilines to replace the standard interconnect and this borught about a fantastic imporvement, in the way it usually does. CLeaner, more dynamic, quieter background, better separation etc. A while later I substituted the standard mains lead with a Powerline and another huge improvement followed. This brought the overallpresentation towards the sound I get from the CDS3\555ps
I will try over the weekend to see which cable gives most benefit i.e if forced to choose only one cable whether it should be the Powerline or the Hiline.
I listened happily for ages and then the final experiment was to add the 555ps. It is worth pointing out that wHen adding an external ps the DAC itself must still be powered from its own power socket. It is not necessary to use a Powerline on the DAC at this point as it will only power the software side of the unit whilst the external ps will power the D\A conversion side of things. So at this point the Powerline was connceted to the 555ps. This took the setup to another dimension but whether the setup rivalled or beat my CDS3\555ps is hard to say at this stage. I only have one 555ps so would have needed to swap everything about. I sense the DAC\555ps was probably slightly more laid back than the CDS3 but I will hopefully try that experiment later this weekend.
My conclusions so far are that the new DAC is very good but can sound significantly better with the Hiline and Powerline added. I would suggest if you have a higher end system you really ought to consider these as a priority as this setup represents great value in my view, especially considering the significant extra cost of an external ps.
I would like to have tried a Naim DC1 digital cable instead of my Atlas as I have read that these are very good, albeit £225 each. Presumably the DAC was designed around this cable. Unfortunately my dealer did not have one to try.
The Sonos system works a treat with the DAC and is a very convenient way of listening to music.I haven't yet tried playing from a USB stick or any other digital source.
My overall conclusion based on a few hours listening is that I will not be retuning the DAC to the dealer and will be enquiring about the possibility of getting a deal on another Powerline and a Hiline.
For those of you waiting I think it will be worth it.
Nice reading, Graham!
But the posts like this normally raise more questions
Agree, PL is a universal piece. I use it on different non-naim preamps with very good results and also improve the sound on PS Audio DLIII DAC. When it comes down to a single PL I would avoid using word "significant" for my cases and prefer call it "marginal" as it contributes less than for example adding external PS or stepping up in Naim range. But when put PLs all around your system it gives a really significant cumulative improvement especially when complemented with HiLine. My friend has put PLs all around his tube gears and seems to be happy!
That was my big question for a long time: can re-clocking DACs (like Lavry) reject a jitter completely from the cheap streamers like Sonos and Squeezbox. Your experience suggests that Sonos is a good (or even flawless) digital transport -- at least when paired with re-clocking DAC.
It's very encouraging.
Did you make tests against Logitech (Slim Devices) streamers?
You tell me -- I don't have CD555 with two 555PS
I'm not even having a Naim DAC yet!
Long awaited analysis.
I mean it's not that surprising when we talk about sound clarity as Naim DAC provides better jitter handling than CDS3 non-reclocking DAC. But digital pre-processing and output stage is a key for CDS3 singing -- do we have the same in Naim DAC or it suggests a new voicing?
Do you feel it's a step up from Lavry?
I suppose it was a misprint and you probably mean Sonos/Coax/Lavry vs Mac/Tosslink/Lavry. There was a number of threads around with focus on PC/Mac vs dedicated streaming solutions. I was supporting that streamers are sonically ahead of USB solutions at the moment. But I never tried Mac/Tosslink as a transport.
But the posts like this normally raise more questions
quote:
I use a Sonos through a Lavry DA10 + Powerline. The Powerline makes a significant improvement to the Lavry.
Agree, PL is a universal piece. I use it on different non-naim preamps with very good results and also improve the sound on PS Audio DLIII DAC. When it comes down to a single PL I would avoid using word "significant" for my cases and prefer call it "marginal" as it contributes less than for example adding external PS or stepping up in Naim range. But when put PLs all around your system it gives a really significant cumulative improvement especially when complemented with HiLine. My friend has put PLs all around his tube gears and seems to be happy!
quote:This combo comes close to my CD555 with dual 555PSes. I can believe it takes the DAC up a level.
That was my big question for a long time: can re-clocking DACs (like Lavry) reject a jitter completely from the cheap streamers like Sonos and Squeezbox. Your experience suggests that Sonos is a good (or even flawless) digital transport -- at least when paired with re-clocking DAC.
It's very encouraging.
Did you make tests against Logitech (Slim Devices) streamers?
quote:
For serious listening the CD player is better, but is it £19k better???
You tell me -- I don't have CD555 with two 555PS
I'm not even having a Naim DAC yet! quote:
Assuming the Naim DAC is a step up from the Lavry I can believe it leads the way over a CDS3. Even with a Sonos as source.
Long awaited analysis.
I mean it's not that surprising when we talk about sound clarity as Naim DAC provides better jitter handling than CDS3 non-reclocking DAC. But digital pre-processing and output stage is a key for CDS3 singing -- do we have the same in Naim DAC or it suggests a new voicing?
Do you feel it's a step up from Lavry?
quote:
Tests last year in my system concluded that a Sonos/Lavry via coax sounded better than Mac/Sonos via optical.
I suppose it was a misprint and you probably mean Sonos/Coax/Lavry vs Mac/Tosslink/Lavry. There was a number of threads around with focus on PC/Mac vs dedicated streaming solutions. I was supporting that streamers are sonically ahead of USB solutions at the moment. But I never tried Mac/Tosslink as a transport.
DHT said
A simplistic view. But in this case it leads to the wrong conclusion.
Naim (and others) successfully sell specialised mains leads to many people (who are not stupid) for a reason - because they make a real, noticeable difference in their systems.
If one regards a mains lead as simply a means to provide 50/60Hz power in sufficient quantity to 'do the job', then one is bound to struggle with any suggestion that exchanging it for another will make a difference.
Fortunately for specialist mains lead makers (and most unfortunately for the rest of us), the real world is not as simple, convenient or friendly as that.
"Mains power" is NOT just 50/60Hz pure sine wave power. It also contains, amongst other things the following free 'extras';-
a) harmonics (multiples of the power frequency eg. 100/120Hz, 150/180Hz, in various amounts right up and through to Khz multiples).
b) Spurious directly injected noise at various frequencies from connected equipment, both nearby and at a distance
c) RF interference
Most people are willing to accept that the above 'extras' in a 'typical' Mains supply are not welcome inside a piece of HiFi equipment. They all tend to degrade the performance. The amount and type of degradation is dependent upon many factors and I won't bore you with them, but higher performance equipment ('Naim' is one) tends to be more sensitive to, let's call it 'mains-borne degradation'.
And as if the above is not enough to think about, there are many other equally significant factors at work relating to mains supply and wiring impedance, and earthing issues. Again I won't bore you with details. Just to say these must not be ignored, as these other factors tend to be in a precarious balance with the 'noise' problems listed above. As an example, you can insert an RF Filter in the mains lead to a Naim amplifier which reduces RF interference, BUT on balance it degrades the sound quality because it degrades these impedance-related parameters.
Now consider the mains lead as the conduit for ALL the above, not just the simple 50Hz/60Hz power signal.
And also consider that the design and construction of a mains lead can be varied, at a cost, to affect the 'mix' of above factors that make it through to the equipment.
Hopefully you can now appreciate how changing this mains lead can, potentially, affect the performance of sensitive HiFi equipment, beit in a good OR bad way.
Tonytronic
quote:Deaf perhaps but not stupid enough to believe that one metre of power cable can make the slightest difference to the sound quality.
A simplistic view. But in this case it leads to the wrong conclusion.
Naim (and others) successfully sell specialised mains leads to many people (who are not stupid) for a reason - because they make a real, noticeable difference in their systems.
If one regards a mains lead as simply a means to provide 50/60Hz power in sufficient quantity to 'do the job', then one is bound to struggle with any suggestion that exchanging it for another will make a difference.
Fortunately for specialist mains lead makers (and most unfortunately for the rest of us), the real world is not as simple, convenient or friendly as that.
"Mains power" is NOT just 50/60Hz pure sine wave power. It also contains, amongst other things the following free 'extras';-
a) harmonics (multiples of the power frequency eg. 100/120Hz, 150/180Hz, in various amounts right up and through to Khz multiples).
b) Spurious directly injected noise at various frequencies from connected equipment, both nearby and at a distance
c) RF interference
Most people are willing to accept that the above 'extras' in a 'typical' Mains supply are not welcome inside a piece of HiFi equipment. They all tend to degrade the performance. The amount and type of degradation is dependent upon many factors and I won't bore you with them, but higher performance equipment ('Naim' is one) tends to be more sensitive to, let's call it 'mains-borne degradation'.
And as if the above is not enough to think about, there are many other equally significant factors at work relating to mains supply and wiring impedance, and earthing issues. Again I won't bore you with details. Just to say these must not be ignored, as these other factors tend to be in a precarious balance with the 'noise' problems listed above. As an example, you can insert an RF Filter in the mains lead to a Naim amplifier which reduces RF interference, BUT on balance it degrades the sound quality because it degrades these impedance-related parameters.
Now consider the mains lead as the conduit for ALL the above, not just the simple 50Hz/60Hz power signal.
And also consider that the design and construction of a mains lead can be varied, at a cost, to affect the 'mix' of above factors that make it through to the equipment.
Hopefully you can now appreciate how changing this mains lead can, potentially, affect the performance of sensitive HiFi equipment, beit in a good OR bad way.
Tonytronic
I've given up in trying to figure out why on some things, it just makes you crazy. Many things that shouldn't be very noticable are. I'm buying for my ears and not a scope so I let them decide. We've heard differences in power cables since forever, on everything and used to just select from stock units because the after market ones were almost always worse and sonded like they were doing something. A few exceptions were generally better but more different than those selected out. PL, we all now own. Naim has always recommended to not use power conditioning and many of us have heard the detrimental effects. Nothing new here.quote:Originally posted by tonytronic:
DHT saidquote:Deaf perhaps but not stupid enough to believe that one metre of power cable can make the slightest difference to the sound quality.
A simplistic view. But in this case it leads to the wrong conclusion.
Naim (and others) successfully sell specialised mains leads to many people (who are not stupid) for a reason - because they make a real, noticeable difference in their systems.
If one regards a mains lead as simply a means to provide 50/60Hz power in sufficient quantity to 'do the job', then one is bound to struggle with any suggestion that exchanging it for another will make a difference.
Fortunately for specialist mains lead makers (and most unfortunately for the rest of us), the real world is not as simple, convenient or friendly as that.
"Mains power" is NOT just 50/60Hz pure sine wave power. It also contains, amongst other things the following free 'extras';-
a) harmonics (multiples of the power frequency eg. 100/120Hz, 150/180Hz, in various amounts right up and through to Khz multiples).
b) Spurious directly injected noise at various frequencies from connected equipment, both nearby and at a distance
c) RF interference
Most people are willing to accept that the above 'extras' in a 'typical' Mains supply are not welcome inside a piece of HiFi equipment. They all tend to degrade the performance. The amount and type of degradation is dependent upon many factors and I won't bore you with them, but higher performance equipment ('Naim' is one) tends to be more sensitive to, let's call it 'mains-borne degradation'.
And as if the above is not enough to think about, there are many other equally significant factors at work relating to mains supply and wiring impedance, and earthing issues. Again I won't bore you with details. Just to say these must not be ignored, as these other factors tend to be in a precarious balance with the 'noise' problems listed above. As an example, you can insert an RF Filter in the mains lead to a Naim amplifier which reduces RF interference, BUT on balance it degrades the sound quality because it degrades these impedance-related parameters.
Now consider the mains lead as the conduit for ALL the above, not just the simple 50Hz/60Hz power signal.
And also consider that the design and construction of a mains lead can be varied, at a cost, to affect the 'mix' of above factors that make it through to the equipment.
Hopefully you can now appreciate how changing this mains lead can, potentially, affect the performance of sensitive HiFi equipment, beit in a good OR bad way.
Tonytronic
Of course it is rude to call somebody deaf. Perhaps it wasn't called out due to the recipient not exactly typing with kit gloves either. Still inappropriate.
The person that bought the DAC said he's leaving the 555ps on his CDP and enjoying the DAC just fine as is. There should be no doubt that best will be when used with the top available associated kit but perhaps it doesn't need to be at it's absolute best to satisfy more than the next comparably priced piece. That will be up to those that audition. I guess he's keeping it due his profound disappointment.
The person that bought the DAC said he's leaving the 555ps on his CDP and enjoying the DAC just fine as is. There should be no doubt that best will be when used with the top available associated kit but perhaps it doesn't need to be at it's absolute best to satisfy more than the next comparably priced piece. That will be up to those that audition. I guess he's keeping it due his profound disappointment.
By the way, I apologise if my offerings give offence. 
My intention was to try to give some rational, non-subjective reasons why a PowerLine or similar mains cable might make a difference. Simple as.
As for the people in this forum, I have the greatest respect for you all! Yours views about what you hear/don't hear are always interesting and are never be taken as offensive by me. They are considered as valid and equally important views.
My thanks to you all just for being here and being prepared to read my ramblings.
Respect to you all.
Tonytronic.
My intention was to try to give some rational, non-subjective reasons why a PowerLine or similar mains cable might make a difference. Simple as.
As for the people in this forum, I have the greatest respect for you all! Yours views about what you hear/don't hear are always interesting and are never be taken as offensive by me. They are considered as valid and equally important views.
My thanks to you all just for being here and being prepared to read my ramblings.
Respect to you all.
Tonytronic.
likesmusic said
HaHarrr! LOL!!! Good one! Err... No.
HaHaHaHarr! LOL!!! Nice try. But again, No.
Very comic. And in response ...
I did not make such a claim - and you know that I wouldn't do so, don't you!
To clarify for others - the list of 'unwanted' signals is a quite seperate issue and nothing to do with what any given mains cable might affect!
Look I'm sorry, I hope your trying to be funny, because otherwise my laughter at your questions might cause offence - and we wouldn't want that, would we? Equally I know you wouldn't be wanting to offend by asking what others who are less tolerant might interpret as poorly disguised derisory questions.
Luckily, I don't see it that way.
Thanks for the laugh! Have a nice day.
Tonytronic.
quote:Are you claiming that 'good' mains lead filters out all frequencies above 50Hz (as in a low pass filter)
HaHarrr! LOL!!! Good one! Err... No.quote:...or just that it filters out multiples of 50Hz (as in a notch filter)?
HaHaHaHarr! LOL!!! Nice try. But again, No.quote:...are you actually withdrawing your claim that mains leads filter the harmonics of 50Hz
Very comic. And in response ...
I did not make such a claim - and you know that I wouldn't do so, don't you!
To clarify for others - the list of 'unwanted' signals is a quite seperate issue and nothing to do with what any given mains cable might affect!
Look I'm sorry, I hope your trying to be funny, because otherwise my laughter at your questions might cause offence - and we wouldn't want that, would we? Equally I know you wouldn't be wanting to offend by asking what others who are less tolerant might interpret as poorly disguised derisory questions.
Luckily, I don't see it that way.
Thanks for the laugh! Have a nice day.
Tonytronic.
quote:Originally posted by tonytronic:quote:...are you actually withdrawing your claim that mains leads filter the harmonics of 50Hz
Very comic. And in response ...
I did not make such a claim - and you know that I wouldn't do so, don't you!
Tonytronic.
tonytronic, you did indeed make such a claim. Your exact words were:
quote:Originally posted by tonytronic:
"Mains power" is NOT just 50/60Hz pure sine wave power. It also contains, amongst other things the following free 'extras';-
a) harmonics (multiples of the power frequency eg. 100/120Hz, 150/180Hz, in various amounts right up and through to Khz multiples).
.. also consider that the design and construction of a mains lead can be varied, at a cost, to affect the 'mix' of above factors that make it through to the equipment.
Tonytronic
Is that not absolutely a claim that a mains lead can be made to affect the mix of 50Hz harmonics that make it through to the equipment?
And what's wrong with being asked to justify it?