New Naim DAC at my house today - initial thoughts and experiments.

quote:

But don't you think it is the job of the power supply inside the product to deal with these issues, rather than an external mains lead?

likesmusic, you spot on. Some elements (not all of course) -- mostly those dedicated for resisting RF penetration in/out PS -- can be arranged as a part of PS. You can find this approach in Linn designs or Mark Levinson designs. But building some PL elements inside a Naim PSU will add the same PL cost. I mean the end result will cost you the same money.
Meanwhile Naim commercials are happy as they enjoy PL sales over the non-naim world as well. My friend uses PL for his tube setup. It would have not happen if PL was built-in in Naim PS.

I agree with you in that one day Naim can switch to the new generation of PS which use stock mains.

But today I keep on the practical lane -- to my ears PL produce audible enhancement on the Naim PS, multiple Pls multiply the effect so I bought 4 Pls and consider them as a part of Naim PSs -- with very marginal cost increase.

There is a very popular claim that last meter of power cord can not improve the electrical power propagating for miles through the poor strands in a highly contaminated environment. This is not about the power behind the wall -- this is more about the power out of the wall -- and how you deliver it and split it to the gears, including grounding issues, picking RF and interfering with other gears.

For those who claim PL does not improve sound -- I suggest to repeat audition with a proper setup.
To get a maximum effect -- listen for stock mains and then change them all to PLs: CDP, preamp and poweramp. Check for sound clarity and micro-transients.

If still not audible -- lucky you are! Save 1,500 bucks on 3 PLs and be happy!

Don, I would be quite happy to let my ears decide whether a piece of cable could remove harmonics of 50Hz. 50Hz is somewhere between G and Gsharp - just about the 'blue' note in the key of E. So simply connect such a cable between your amp and your speakers, play any blues in E through it, and all the bent minor thirds will go. If tony's right that is.

Just because something 'might' be possible, doesn't mean that it is.

I am not disagreeing with the observation that mains cables affect the perceived sound of a system. I am asking for evidence that this is due to them filtering harmonics of 50Hz from the mains. Unless of course they are wrapped round a magnet!

Graham I'm sorry I've messed up your thread.

I have to say that I'm disappointed that despite being lucky enough to have one of what is supposed to be the best DACs in the world in your house, you weren't really that pleased with the sound and started fiddling with cables and power supplies straight away. I'd have hoped you'd have been blown away with the thing as it stood.

A couple of questions:

Does the Sync light come on with your Sonos or other sources? This indicates at least a certain level of quality in the source.

Have you got the Signal Ground switch in the right position?

quote:

I am asking for evidence that this is due to them filtering harmonics of 50Hz from the mains

I think you're on the wrong forum for that sort of info. If you try Pink Fish and ask Paul Ranson, I think you will probably get a concise, clear answer.

Cheers

Don

Grahamfinch

Has the DAC improved with a day or two of burn-in?

Generally,

Most of us know that adding a Power-supply/hiline/powerline to virtually any Naim system brings about a worthwhile improvement.

Some people think Naim should include these items as part of the initial product.

This means that a DAC would increase in cost from £2k.........an extra c.£5k for a 555ps and a further £500 each for the powerline and hiline.

Hence instead of £2k for a bloody good DAC, you would be obliged to part with £8k for a supreme DAC. Better, IMHO, to have a choice of starting points.

Cheers

Don

quote:

Graham I'm sorry I've messed up your thread.

I have to say that I'm disappointed that despite being lucky enough to have one of what is supposed to be the best DACs in the world in your house, you weren't really that pleased with the sound and started fiddling with cables and power supplies straight away. I'd have hoped you'd have been blown away with the thing as it stood.

A couple of questions:

Does the Sync light come on with your Sonos or other sources? This indicates at least a certain level of quality in the source.

Have you got the Signal Ground switch in the right position?

Yes to both questions - well at least the earth is switched as Naim recommend and I am not aware that the Sonus needs a different setting.

As to your comment why did you assume I was not really pleased with the DAC as it stood??? It blew the Dacmagic away as you would expect. I didn't sart swapping everything immediately, apart from swapping the Cobra 3for the NAim standard interconnect. I must again emphasise that I was giving my intial impression to first turning it on in the context of my own Sonus streaming system to a 552\250-2 and Allaes.

Ideally I want streaming to sound as close as it can to my CDS3/555ps which is of course partnered with a Hiline and a Powerline so it made sense to also try these with the DAC. I did this gradually and as I said the Hiline and Powerline make huge improvements. Naim themselves recommend the Hiline in the instructuion manual. So I was not "fiddling" straight off but following a logical process to get the best out of the DAC.

The DAC sounds great but realistically I did not expect the Sonus and the straight DAC to directly match the CDS3\555ps.

I still haven't done a direct comparison with the CDS3\555ps as this is more problemmatical but the fact that I am happily listening to the Sonus\DAC\555ps etc without the desperate urge to turn the CDS3 on is a testament to how good the DAC is. Don't forget the DAC will be used by people with better sources than my Sonos e.g HDX or CDX2 with digital output etc. There are a number of compromises with my Sonos set up but for you to assume I wasn't pleased with the DAC is not true.

It's singing beautifully at the moment.

im looking forward to my dac. thanx graham!

LikesMusic said

quote:

Is that not absolutely a claim that a mains lead can be made to affect the mix of 50Hz harmonics that make it through to the equipment?

And what's wrong with being asked to justify it?

I've already tried to explain that it not what I meant, but it seems you don't want to know.
I can assure you nobody cares any more, except yourself.
Try to find something helpful and constructive to say. That way lies maturity and respect.
Reject the dark side that rages within and follow the light...

May peece be upon you

Tonytronic.

Graham,
Just wanted to thank you for taking time to breif us about your first impression. Unfortunately the topic of your thread was diverted in all sorts of strange ways (cables, insults, appologies, strange mis-interpretations, health conditions of hifi dealers etc etc), leaving only a few relevant comments actually dealing with the dac, but it was still great to get info on this. Personally I think this is one of the most exiting products Naim has launched for a long time, so if you would have the time to follow up in a few days when the dac has been used for a while, I am sure it would be very appreciated by many here at the forum. Thanks in advance and enjoy the listening.

I've just had my best friend (another Naim devotee) round for an extended listening session. For his benefit I set everything as it was before I got the Naim dac and we listened to half a dozen tracks we know and like.

I then inserted the Naim DAC, keeping the Cobra 3 in place. To my ears the sound was already less sibilant than when I first plugged the Naim Dac in on Friday evening so a couple of days warming up seems to have been beneficial.

Again we listened to the same half a dozen tracks and it was clear that the Naim DAC was doing what you would expect in terms of clarity, deciphering the tune, timing etc etc. Certainly a big step up from the Dacmagic (but as my friend pointed out at ten times the price). FOr the money the Dacmagic is pretty good.

We then experimented by adding a Powerline but still keeping the Cobra 3 in place. Despite some views to the contrary on this thread, this made a huge difference. Read the various posts about the Powerline if you haven't tried one. We then removed the Powerline, went back to the standard mains lead and inserted a Hiline instead of the Cobra 3. Again a huge difference but interestingly if we could only have opted for one lead out of the two it would have been the Powerline as it seemed to improve everything in a fundemental way whereas the Hiline built on the foundation created by the Powerline as it were. The Powerline is also the cheaper upgrade option as it happens - £395 vs £555.

Next we listened using both the Hiline and a Powerline and both felt, as I did originally, that this was a great combination. Finally we went the whole hog and introduced the 555ps. As expected this was the icing on the top of a very good cake but obviously at what would be a rather large additional cost.

So the "basic" Naim DAC sounded great, and anyone in the market for a DAC should definitely audition it. It did all the "Naim things. For those with more revealing systms logical upgrades would (at least in the context of my system) be adding a Powerline first, then a Hiline and finally if funds allowed a power supply.

Well having spent a couple of hours or more we decided to try the Sonus\Naim DAC\555ps against the CDS3\555ps. This meant a bit of swapping connections but the CDS3 edged it providing a slightly more transparent, natural and spacious sound. I have to say trying to find the same CD as I was listening to on the Sonus to make the comparison was a real pain in the backside and once again emphasised the convenience of streaming against finding individual tracks from a stash of CDs.

Whether a different streaming source to the Sonus or an HDX would change the outcome remains to be seen, as perhaps would be trying a Naim DC1 digital lead etc.Incidentally, who was it that talked about upgrades for the Sonus. Please reveal all.

So in summary an excellent product that I think will improve with further burning in. Even if the sound quality is not quite as good as the CDS3\555ps the convenience factor alone has me thinking I might just use the Sonos\555ps\Naim DAC as my main day to day source and only switch back to the CD if I want to listen to something particularly critically.

Convenience\flexibilty versus quality - now that's another thread but at least I feel the DAC has been worth the wait and if you can affford one and have a need for one then get it! I doubt you will be disappointed.

quote:

Originally posted by Julian H:
Sean

Google Cullen Circuits and Audiocom

J

Graham, see above from yesterday. Also, try a good quality optical connection too.

J

Graham Hi, did you conduct the listening tests 'blind' if you can see the changes then expectation bias comes into play, and the mind is a powerful thing!
Sorry to be such a pedant.

DHT
No blind listening. We have both been to various Naim roadshows/Bristol HIFI show etc etc and whilst we would have the "expectation" you refer to we also are honest enough not to spend our own money on sometihng if we did not feel on balance that it was justified.

Also don't forget I already had the "expectation" in view of my use of the Powerline and Hiline on the CDS3\555ps and it was this sound I was trying to emulate.

Julian
Thanks or the tip re Cullen\Audiocom - will check it out. Still not convinced about optical but if one comes my way I'd be happy to give it a go.

Hi,

Re:Sonos upgrades, there are no official upgrades but some third party mods available to reduce jitter and add hi res support. Have a search with google

Waz

Have had a quick look. Cullen are in the STates and so getting mods done would be an issue plus $550 seems a bit steep at present exchange routes.

The UK based Audiocom offer a couple of digital only "upgrades" at £185 and £343 repsectively. Not sure whether these would be worth it. I may ask if they can send a modified version for a home comparison trial (which I doubt they can do) but otherwise it seems a bit of a risk to pay for it blind.

Has anyone here tried these upgrades???

quote:

The UK based Audiocom offer a couple of digital only "upgrades" at £185 and £343 repsectively

IMHO they are an audio boutique they simply substitute higher tolerance components for those already there - it may make a difference, but then again it may not be a difference for the better.

@ Graham Finch:

Have you tried feeding the DAC via a USB memory stick? How does this sound with a WAV-file from a ripped CD? Or with High Resolution WAV-files?

quote:

Originally posted by GrahamFinch:
...we decided to try the Sonus\Naim DAC\555ps against the CDS3\555ps. This meant a bit of swapping connections but the CDS3 edged it providing a slightly more transparent, natural and spacious sound.

That's roughly what I experienced at the summer roadshow in Painswick. Naim using a MAC into the DAC.
Interesting...

When will this thread transfer to Distributed Audio?

It's one of the reasons I go into the forum less.

RR

RR,

the DAC is a product that straddles both rooms. If I judge that a converstaion is concentrating more on the streaming side then it will be moved. Sometimes it's a tough call... Let's not forget that the DAC itself is not a streamer and many on here will be using it with a transport of some kind, whether that be to upgrade a CDX2-2 or CD5XS or something else.

quote:

Originally posted by GrahamFinch:
Have had a quick look. Cullen are in the STates and so getting mods done would be an issue plus $550 seems a bit steep at present exchange routes.

The UK based Audiocom offer a couple of digital only "upgrades" at £185 and £343 repsectively. Not sure whether these would be worth it. I may ask if they can send a modified version for a home comparison trial (which I doubt they can do) but otherwise it seems a bit of a risk to pay for it blind.

Has anyone here tried these upgrades???

I have read positive comments on other forums about these upgrades, but I would not like to invest that much money in a product that does not support 96/24.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard Dane:
RR,

the DAC is a product that straddles both rooms. If I judge that a converstaion is concentrating more on the streaming side then it will be moved. Sometimes it's a tough call... Let's not forget that the DAC itself is not a streamer and many on here will be using it with a transport of some kind, whether that be to upgrade a CDX2-2 or CD5XS or something else.

Many thanks Richard.

When is the/is there a Naim streamer coming? Seems to be a growing momentum for the Linn solution.

RR

hi Red, very good question....a lot of us are waiting for a pure streamer....right now, they're buying Linn DS!
I ordered a DAC and will use a Majik DS as streamer.....
Ralf

This thread is the worst possible first review for the new DAC.

I think the suggestion that it needs a 'fix' from the off has me pondering about it in my system now...

I wanted it to be simply sensational without any upgrades. I think I must have been caught up in the pre-launch hype!
Yet, if you read HiFi Worlds review it gets the endorsement that I was expecting and hoping that it would. 5 stars all the way!

No doubting Grahams review and findings though, he's just saying it as it is.

We'll all know, one way or the other, as the stock starts to filter out to our retailers.

quote:

I think the suggestion that it needs a 'fix' from the off has me pondering about it in my system now...

I didn't read what the origanal poster said in that way at all. My 555 improved with a hi-line and power line. That does not mean that it needed 'fixing' in the first place, just that better connectors have the ability to raise the performance ceiling. Something anybody who understands and has demmed the benefits of good connectors already knows.