New Naim DAC at my house today - initial thoughts and experiments.

Posted by: GrahamFinch on 11 December 2009

I have been lucky enough to acquire a new Naim DAC from my dealer today. To put things into perspective for you I want to use it instead of a Dacmagic used with a SOnos wireless system to stream music from my PC to my main system (cds3\555ps\552\250-2, Allaes, powerlines and hilines etc. The digital cable is an Atlas coax cable.

Initially I played a few tracks on the existing Sonos\Dacmagic and then connected the Naim Dac. At this point I used the same Chord Cobra 3 phono to din lead that I used with the Dacmagic. Bearing in mind the Naim DAC was just out of the box it sounded pretty good but with a degree of harshness and sibilence I did not like.

As Naim recommend DIN connections I swapped the Cobra 3 for the standard Naim grey interconnect. This improved the sibilence but maybe at the expense of something else. Overall thought I thought it sounded more natural and less strident. Possibly the edginess would have eased anyway as the unit burns in but I would suggest it is something to consider.

After a while I used one of my Hilines to replace the standard interconnect and this borught about a fantastic imporvement, in the way it usually does. CLeaner, more dynamic, quieter background, better separation etc. A while later I substituted the standard mains lead with a Powerline and another huge improvement followed. This brought the overallpresentation towards the sound I get from the CDS3\555ps

I will try over the weekend to see which cable gives most benefit i.e if forced to choose only one cable whether it should be the Powerline or the Hiline.


I listened happily for ages and then the final experiment was to add the 555ps. It is worth pointing out that wHen adding an external ps the DAC itself must still be powered from its own power socket. It is not necessary to use a Powerline on the DAC at this point as it will only power the software side of the unit whilst the external ps will power the D\A conversion side of things. So at this point the Powerline was connceted to the 555ps. This took the setup to another dimension but whether the setup rivalled or beat my CDS3\555ps is hard to say at this stage. I only have one 555ps so would have needed to swap everything about. I sense the DAC\555ps was probably slightly more laid back than the CDS3 but I will hopefully try that experiment later this weekend.

My conclusions so far are that the new DAC is very good but can sound significantly better with the Hiline and Powerline added. I would suggest if you have a higher end system you really ought to consider these as a priority as this setup represents great value in my view, especially considering the significant extra cost of an external ps.

I would like to have tried a Naim DC1 digital cable instead of my Atlas as I have read that these are very good, albeit £225 each. Presumably the DAC was designed around this cable. Unfortunately my dealer did not have one to try.

The Sonos system works a treat with the DAC and is a very convenient way of listening to music.I haven't yet tried playing from a USB stick or any other digital source.

My overall conclusion based on a few hours listening is that I will not be retuning the DAC to the dealer and will be enquiring about the possibility of getting a deal on another Powerline and a Hiline.

For those of you waiting I think it will be worth it.
Posted on: 12 December 2009 by tonytronic
LikesMusic said

quote:
Is that not absolutely a claim that a mains lead can be made to affect the mix of 50Hz harmonics that make it through to the equipment?

And what's wrong with being asked to justify it?


I've already tried to explain that it not what I meant, but it seems you don't want to know.
I can assure you nobody cares any more, except yourself.
Try to find something helpful and constructive to say. That way lies maturity and respect.
Reject the dark side that rages within and follow the light...

May peece be upon you Smile

Tonytronic.
Posted on: 13 December 2009 by naken janne
Graham,
Just wanted to thank you for taking time to breif us about your first impression. Unfortunately the topic of your thread was diverted in all sorts of strange ways (cables, insults, appologies, strange mis-interpretations, health conditions of hifi dealers etc etc), leaving only a few relevant comments actually dealing with the dac, but it was still great to get info on this. Personally I think this is one of the most exiting products Naim has launched for a long time, so if you would have the time to follow up in a few days when the dac has been used for a while, I am sure it would be very appreciated by many here at the forum. Thanks in advance and enjoy the listening.
Posted on: 13 December 2009 by GrahamFinch
I've just had my best friend (another Naim devotee) round for an extended listening session. For his benefit I set everything as it was before I got the Naim dac and we listened to half a dozen tracks we know and like.

I then inserted the Naim DAC, keeping the Cobra 3 in place. To my ears the sound was already less sibilant than when I first plugged the Naim Dac in on Friday evening so a couple of days warming up seems to have been beneficial.

Again we listened to the same half a dozen tracks and it was clear that the Naim DAC was doing what you would expect in terms of clarity, deciphering the tune, timing etc etc. Certainly a big step up from the Dacmagic (but as my friend pointed out at ten times the price). FOr the money the Dacmagic is pretty good.

We then experimented by adding a Powerline but still keeping the Cobra 3 in place. Despite some views to the contrary on this thread, this made a huge difference. Read the various posts about the Powerline if you haven't tried one. We then removed the Powerline, went back to the standard mains lead and inserted a Hiline instead of the Cobra 3. Again a huge difference but interestingly if we could only have opted for one lead out of the two it would have been the Powerline as it seemed to improve everything in a fundemental way whereas the Hiline built on the foundation created by the Powerline as it were. The Powerline is also the cheaper upgrade option as it happens - £395 vs £555.

Next we listened using both the Hiline and a Powerline and both felt, as I did originally, that this was a great combination. Finally we went the whole hog and introduced the 555ps. As expected this was the icing on the top of a very good cake but obviously at what would be a rather large additional cost.

So the "basic" Naim DAC sounded great, and anyone in the market for a DAC should definitely audition it. It did all the "Naim things. For those with more revealing systms logical upgrades would (at least in the context of my system) be adding a Powerline first, then a Hiline and finally if funds allowed a power supply.

Well having spent a couple of hours or more we decided to try the Sonus\Naim DAC\555ps against the CDS3\555ps. This meant a bit of swapping connections but the CDS3 edged it providing a slightly more transparent, natural and spacious sound. I have to say trying to find the same CD as I was listening to on the Sonus to make the comparison was a real pain in the backside and once again emphasised the convenience of streaming against finding individual tracks from a stash of CDs.

Whether a different streaming source to the Sonus or an HDX would change the outcome remains to be seen, as perhaps would be trying a Naim DC1 digital lead etc.Incidentally, who was it that talked about upgrades for the Sonus. Please reveal all.

So in summary an excellent product that I think will improve with further burning in. Even if the sound quality is not quite as good as the CDS3\555ps the convenience factor alone has me thinking I might just use the Sonos\555ps\Naim DAC as my main day to day source and only switch back to the CD if I want to listen to something particularly critically.

Convenience\flexibilty versus quality - now that's another thread but at least I feel the DAC has been worth the wait and if you can affford one and have a need for one then get it! I doubt you will be disappointed.
Posted on: 13 December 2009 by Julian H
quote:
Originally posted by Julian H:
Sean

Google Cullen Circuits and Audiocom

J


Graham, see above from yesterday. Also, try a good quality optical connection too.

J
Posted on: 13 December 2009 by DHT
Graham Hi, did you conduct the listening tests 'blind' if you can see the changes then expectation bias comes into play, and the mind is a powerful thing!
Sorry to be such a pedant.
Posted on: 13 December 2009 by GrahamFinch
DHT
No blind listening. We have both been to various Naim roadshows/Bristol HIFI show etc etc and whilst we would have the "expectation" you refer to we also are honest enough not to spend our own money on sometihng if we did not feel on balance that it was justified.

Also don't forget I already had the "expectation" in view of my use of the Powerline and Hiline on the CDS3\555ps and it was this sound I was trying to emulate.

Julian
Thanks or the tip re Cullen\Audiocom - will check it out. Still not convinced about optical but if one comes my way I'd be happy to give it a go.
Posted on: 13 December 2009 by Wazza69
Hi,

Re:Sonos upgrades, there are no official upgrades but some third party mods available to reduce jitter and add hi res support. Have a search with google

Waz
Posted on: 13 December 2009 by GrahamFinch
Have had a quick look. Cullen are in the STates and so getting mods done would be an issue plus $550 seems a bit steep at present exchange routes.

The UK based Audiocom offer a couple of digital only "upgrades" at £185 and £343 repsectively. Not sure whether these would be worth it. I may ask if they can send a modified version for a home comparison trial (which I doubt they can do) but otherwise it seems a bit of a risk to pay for it blind.

Has anyone here tried these upgrades???
Posted on: 13 December 2009 by Guido Fawkes
quote:
The UK based Audiocom offer a couple of digital only "upgrades" at £185 and £343 repsectively
IMHO they are an audio boutique they simply substitute higher tolerance components for those already there - it may make a difference, but then again it may not be a difference for the better.
Posted on: 13 December 2009 by John R.
@ Graham Finch:

Have you tried feeding the DAC via a USB memory stick? How does this sound with a WAV-file from a ripped CD? Or with High Resolution WAV-files?
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by rupert bear
quote:
Originally posted by GrahamFinch:
...we decided to try the Sonus\Naim DAC\555ps against the CDS3\555ps. This meant a bit of swapping connections but the CDS3 edged it providing a slightly more transparent, natural and spacious sound.

That's roughly what I experienced at the summer roadshow in Painswick. Naim using a MAC into the DAC.
Interesting...
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by Red Rooster
When will this thread transfer to Distributed Audio?

It's one of the reasons I go into the forum less.

RR
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by Richard Dane
RR,

the DAC is a product that straddles both rooms. If I judge that a converstaion is concentrating more on the streaming side then it will be moved. Sometimes it's a tough call... Let's not forget that the DAC itself is not a streamer and many on here will be using it with a transport of some kind, whether that be to upgrade a CDX2-2 or CD5XS or something else.
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by Occean
quote:
Originally posted by GrahamFinch:
Have had a quick look. Cullen are in the STates and so getting mods done would be an issue plus $550 seems a bit steep at present exchange routes.

The UK based Audiocom offer a couple of digital only "upgrades" at £185 and £343 repsectively. Not sure whether these would be worth it. I may ask if they can send a modified version for a home comparison trial (which I doubt they can do) but otherwise it seems a bit of a risk to pay for it blind.

Has anyone here tried these upgrades???


I have read positive comments on other forums about these upgrades, but I would not like to invest that much money in a product that does not support 96/24.
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by Red Rooster
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dane:
RR,

the DAC is a product that straddles both rooms. If I judge that a converstaion is concentrating more on the streaming side then it will be moved. Sometimes it's a tough call... Let's not forget that the DAC itself is not a streamer and many on here will be using it with a transport of some kind, whether that be to upgrade a CDX2-2 or CD5XS or something else.


Many thanks Richard.

When is the/is there a Naim streamer coming? Seems to be a growing momentum for the Linn solution.

RR
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by T38.45
hi Red, very good question....a lot of us are waiting for a pure streamer....right now, they're buying Linn DS!
I ordered a DAC and will use a Majik DS as streamer.....
Ralf
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by JoexNaim
This thread is the worst possible first review for the new DAC.

I think the suggestion that it needs a 'fix' from the off has me pondering about it in my system now...

I wanted it to be simply sensational without any upgrades. I think I must have been caught up in the pre-launch hype!
Yet, if you read HiFi Worlds review it gets the endorsement that I was expecting and hoping that it would. 5 stars all the way!

No doubting Grahams review and findings though, he's just saying it as it is.

We'll all know, one way or the other, as the stock starts to filter out to our retailers.
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by Simon Matthews
quote:
I think the suggestion that it needs a 'fix' from the off has me pondering about it in my system now...


I didn't read what the origanal poster said in that way at all. My 555 improved with a hi-line and power line. That does not mean that it needed 'fixing' in the first place, just that better connectors have the ability to raise the performance ceiling. Something anybody who understands and has demmed the benefits of good connectors already knows.
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by js
I find it very surprising that some folks here are taking a very reasonable review to be more than it is. He's using a SONOS as a source and the big fix was using a stock cable instead of an aftermarket one that was chosen for a DACmagic when it was cold. Why would anyone be surprised that he may opine it doesn't sound as good as a CDS3 when using a Sonos as source.

As far as almost all that have tried them, every piece of kit needs the HiLine and PowerLine fix. Big Grin

Why would it surprise that an outboard supply makes it better. I think some of this has to be taken with a grain of salt due to source. The relative differences will be there but general level of goodness and amount of change with the add ons will be relative to quality of source. Using a Sonos as source, though good for what it is, is like being disappointed that you haven't set the fasted lap time in your new Ferarri when the track was wet.

Perspective people. Nothings for everyone but you won't know until you try it yourself.
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by AMA
quote:
Many thanks Richard.

When is the/is there a Naim streamer coming? Seems to be a growing momentum for the Linn solution.

RR


RR, now it's a perfect time to move thread to Distributed Audio Big Grin
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by Richard Dane
quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
quote:
Many thanks Richard.

When is the/is there a Naim streamer coming? Seems to be a growing momentum for the Linn solution.

RR


RR, now it's a perfect time to move thread to Distributed Audio Big Grin


RR, I couldn't possibly comment on this. What I will say is that on top of the DAC and S-600s, on my last visit to the factory there are some really cool things coming for 2010 and they will be well worth waiting for... Apart from that, my lips are sealed!!

Out of interest, and getting back on topic, I'm a CDS3 user and on the strength of the demo I've had at Naim, I have ordered the DAC. I like the streaming concept and so the DAC will be one half of the perfect digital front-end. All we need now is a streamer that will really do it justice...

And on that note, this thread is moving...
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by goldfinch
quote:
Originally posted by Simon Matthews:
quote:
I think the suggestion that it needs a 'fix' from the off has me pondering about it in my system now...


I didn't read what the origanal poster said in that way at all. My 555 improved with a hi-line and power line. That does not mean that it needed 'fixing' in the first place, just that better connectors have the ability to raise the performance ceiling. Something anybody who understands and has demmed the benefits of good connectors already knows.


The DAC being very sensitive to PL and HL might be a sign of how good it is, those cables in a lower system might not bring such an improvement!

On the other hand I expected the DAC/555PS being above the CDS3/555PS and I still hope so with a better transport than the Sonos...
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by likesmusic
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dane:
I like the streaming concept and so the DAC will be one half of the perfect digital front-end. All we need now is a streamer that will really do it justice...



You surely don't mean that! Why would you want a separate streamer? Surely a 'perfect digital front end' would be to endow the DAC with an ethernet input and appropriate software to access music data on the network alongside the currently existing s/pdif and other inputs. Add a volume control and you really would be talking. One box with an ethernet input for streaming, s/pdif inputs for your tv and legacy cd player, usb for your ipod .. a complete digital preamp. Only one mains lead and one power-supply to upgrade though. Ahh .. that's why you want a separate box Winker
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by Aleg
quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Dane:
I like the streaming concept and so the DAC will be one half of the perfect digital front-end. All we need now is a streamer that will really do it justice...



You surely don't mean that! Why would you want a separate streamer? Surely a 'perfect digital front end' would be to endow the DAC with an ethernet input and appropriate software to access music data on the network alongside the currently existing s/pdif and other inputs. Add a volume control and you really would be talking. One box with an ethernet input for streaming, s/pdif inputs for your tv and legacy cd player, usb for your ipod .. a complete digital preamp. Only one mains lead and one power-supply to upgrade though. Ahh .. that's why you want a separate box Winker


Don't listen to him, he still doesn't get it. Big Grin

Just a simple separate box with NAS-/fileserver access, internet access and streamer capabilities to feed into the new DAC.
Ethernet Gigabit port, if perse needed, some WiFi is OK.

Some software to have a nice user interface on screen, on web and for an iPod.

Some nice lossless codecs like FLAC, APE, ALAC, WAV etc. (MP3, OGG is OK for those who want it).

That's all I want and I'll be a happy camper

-
aleg
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by likesmusic
aleg - the penny will drop eventually. Why not put the DAC inside the box you propose? What is the point of getting a buffer full of data across the network, then turning it into dodgy old s/pdif in order to transfer it to a DAC which promptly turns it back into a buffer full of data before re-clocking it into the D-A convertor itself? Combine the two objects and you avoid the whole s/pdif re-clocking malarkey. S/pdif has no place whatsoever if your data is on a hard-drive.