New Naim DAC at my house today - initial thoughts and experiments.
Posted by: GrahamFinch on 11 December 2009
I have been lucky enough to acquire a new Naim DAC from my dealer today. To put things into perspective for you I want to use it instead of a Dacmagic used with a SOnos wireless system to stream music from my PC to my main system (cds3\555ps\552\250-2, Allaes, powerlines and hilines etc. The digital cable is an Atlas coax cable.
Initially I played a few tracks on the existing Sonos\Dacmagic and then connected the Naim Dac. At this point I used the same Chord Cobra 3 phono to din lead that I used with the Dacmagic. Bearing in mind the Naim DAC was just out of the box it sounded pretty good but with a degree of harshness and sibilence I did not like.
As Naim recommend DIN connections I swapped the Cobra 3 for the standard Naim grey interconnect. This improved the sibilence but maybe at the expense of something else. Overall thought I thought it sounded more natural and less strident. Possibly the edginess would have eased anyway as the unit burns in but I would suggest it is something to consider.
After a while I used one of my Hilines to replace the standard interconnect and this borught about a fantastic imporvement, in the way it usually does. CLeaner, more dynamic, quieter background, better separation etc. A while later I substituted the standard mains lead with a Powerline and another huge improvement followed. This brought the overallpresentation towards the sound I get from the CDS3\555ps
I will try over the weekend to see which cable gives most benefit i.e if forced to choose only one cable whether it should be the Powerline or the Hiline.
I listened happily for ages and then the final experiment was to add the 555ps. It is worth pointing out that wHen adding an external ps the DAC itself must still be powered from its own power socket. It is not necessary to use a Powerline on the DAC at this point as it will only power the software side of the unit whilst the external ps will power the D\A conversion side of things. So at this point the Powerline was connceted to the 555ps. This took the setup to another dimension but whether the setup rivalled or beat my CDS3\555ps is hard to say at this stage. I only have one 555ps so would have needed to swap everything about. I sense the DAC\555ps was probably slightly more laid back than the CDS3 but I will hopefully try that experiment later this weekend.
My conclusions so far are that the new DAC is very good but can sound significantly better with the Hiline and Powerline added. I would suggest if you have a higher end system you really ought to consider these as a priority as this setup represents great value in my view, especially considering the significant extra cost of an external ps.
I would like to have tried a Naim DC1 digital cable instead of my Atlas as I have read that these are very good, albeit £225 each. Presumably the DAC was designed around this cable. Unfortunately my dealer did not have one to try.
The Sonos system works a treat with the DAC and is a very convenient way of listening to music.I haven't yet tried playing from a USB stick or any other digital source.
My overall conclusion based on a few hours listening is that I will not be retuning the DAC to the dealer and will be enquiring about the possibility of getting a deal on another Powerline and a Hiline.
For those of you waiting I think it will be worth it.
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by GrahamFinch
Joexnaim
quote:
This thread is the worst possible first review for the new DAC.
I think the suggestion that it needs a 'fix' from the off has me pondering about it in my system now...
I am sorry if you read my experiences that way. I have not blamed the DAC or attributed faults to it. I have simply kept in perspective the source I used and the effects of adding other Naim equipment I already had to hand. I am sure many people considering buying the DAC would also like toknow how it reacts to being partnered with Powerlines\Hilines and an external power supply. Even Naim in their instruction manual recommend using a Hiline. Of course they could have packaged the DAC with a Hiline and a Powerline but then the price would have been correspondingly higher.
I suggest you re-read my conclusions (repeated below) which were made before the thread got diverted into streaming issues. By the way I fell fairly sure the Hifi World reviewer would have had the DAC powered up for a few days if not weeks before publishing his final conclusions as a formal review. I was giving feedback after 4 hours use straight from the box!
[QUOTE]So in summary an excellent product that I think will improve with further burning in. Even if the sound quality is not quite as good as the CDS3\555ps the convenience factor alone has me thinking I might just use the Sonos\555ps\Naim DAC as my main day to day source and only switch back to the CD if I want to listen to something particularly critically.
Convenience\flexibilty versus quality - now that's another thread but at least I feel the DAC has been worth the wait and if you can affford one and have a need for one then get it! I doubt you will be disappointed.[QUOTE]
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by Aleg
quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
aleg - the penny will drop eventually. Why not put the DAC inside the box you propose? What is the point of getting a buffer full of data across the network, then turning it into dodgy old s/pdif in order to transfer it to a DAC which promptly turns it back into a buffer full of data before re-clocking it into the D-A convertor itself? Combine the two objects and you avoid the whole s/pdif re-clocking malarkey. S/pdif has no place whatsoever if your data is on a hard-drive.
I see where you want to go to, and can see it could have the advantages you mention.
But I'm personaly not opposed to using S/PDIF on the DAC, it is a standard interface for many other types of HiFi or Home Cinema products and it keeps it simple to have only one interface in the DAC.
When using low jitter quality components, short leads and sufficient buffering I think it can all be solved to outstanding levels of satisfaction.
What I oppose of is having obsolete parts in the one-box solutions. What if I don't want to use a streamer and only want to connect other digital components to a good DAC? Or if I already have a (different brand) streamer and want to keep using that? What if I have another brand DAC and like to add the Naim streamer functionality to that?
I hate the waste of money and components for functionality I don't want.
I like clean and simple architectures; specific functions in specific components to be connected as building blocks as one pleases.
And I have all faith in NAIM R&D to come up with good solutions to the drawbacks of having externalised connections between components.
It is fine to have one-box solutions, but not for me, and I think there are already plenty of Naim One-Boxes there: HDX, Unity, UnitiQute, SuperNait...
-
aleg
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by likesmusic
aleg - fair enough, i can understand where you're coming from too. If the buffering works and there's no loss in the interface, then who cares anyway. But as soon as someone says that the s/pdif interconnect between an HDX and a NAIM DAC makes a difference ...
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by js
quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:
quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
aleg - the penny will drop eventually. Why not put the DAC inside the box you propose? What is the point of getting a buffer full of data across the network, then turning it into dodgy old s/pdif in order to transfer it to a DAC which promptly turns it back into a buffer full of data before re-clocking it into the D-A convertor itself? Combine the two objects and you avoid the whole s/pdif re-clocking malarkey. S/pdif has no place whatsoever if your data is on a hard-drive.
I see where you want to go to, and can see it could have the advantages you mention.
But I'm personaly not opposed to using S/PDIF on the DAC, it is a standard interface for many other types of HiFi or Home Cinema products and it keeps it simple to have only one interface in the DAC.
When using low jitter quality components, short leads and sufficient buffering I think it can all be solved to outstanding levels of satisfaction.
What I oppose of is having obsolete parts in the one-box solutions. What if I don't want to use a streamer and only want to connect other digital components to a good DAC? Or if I already have a (different brand) streamer and want to keep using that? What if I have another brand DAC and like to add the Naim streamer functionality to that?
I hate the waste of money and components for functionality I don't want.
I like clean and simple architectures; specific functions in specific components to be connected as building blocks as one pleases.
And I have all faith in NAIM R&D to come up with good solutions to the drawbacks of having externalised connections between components.
It is fine to have one-box solutions, but not for me, and I think there are already plenty of Naim One-Boxes there: HDX, Unity, UnitiQute, SuperNait...
-
aleg
As long as it work better than the next thing, I'm good. They have seemingly come up with a dig cable and BNC connections to make sure the interface will be sound. If some other cable works better, there may be something to discuss but if their's is best we can assume this sorted for their kit which is what an inboard streamer would also be. Can't hold them responsable for other bits.
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by pcstockton
quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:
Just a simple separate box with NAS-/fileserver access, internet access and streamer capabilities to feed into the new DAC.
Ethernet Gigabit port, if perse needed, some WiFi is OK.
Some software to have a nice user interface on screen, on web and for an iPod.
hmmmm sounds ALOT like a computer to me. Cut out the middle man.... there is bound to be a PC/Mac at the front of everything.
Why are you not clamoring for Naim to release a PCI-express DAC?
Then you could get 555ps for your Dell.
-p
Posted on: 14 December 2009 by Aleg
quote:
Originally posted by pcstockton:
quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:
Just a simple separate box with NAS-/fileserver access, internet access and streamer capabilities to feed into the new DAC.
Ethernet Gigabit port, if perse needed, some WiFi is OK.
Some software to have a nice user interface on screen, on web and for an iPod.
hmmmm sounds ALOT like a computer to me. Cut out the middle man.... there is bound to be a PC/Mac at the front of everything.
Why are you not clamoring for Naim to release a PCI-express DAC?
Then you could get 555ps for your Dell.
-p
Nope, there is no PC/MAC at the front.
Two floors up there is a Linux based NAS with 5 big discs and a few cooling fans, which just acts as a fileserver to my streamer.
That is where I would like to keep it and I hope to be able to just plug in my future new Naim streamer in my cat5-cable system just as I now do with my lovely small PCH.
And yes, a digital streamer is for 90% a sort of computer, it couldn't be any other way I think.
But please keep all those noisy general purpose computers out of my listening area. As soon as a device has a fan, I won't buy it for my listening area. Period!
My NAS has no Upnp, Twonky, WOnky or whatever streaming software running, just plain NFS and my diskless, fanless streamer just gets what it needs directly from my NAS.
-
aleg
Posted on: 15 December 2009 by goldfinch
How should a Naim streamer be?
- It would be a partner for the Naim DAC, so no DAC inside.
- It wouldn't be a Hard Disk player, we already have one.
- Network streaming? of course, Naim has a lot of experience with this,
I would really like the Naim streamer to be able to direct connection to a PC/Mac. I mean it being able to work as an audio device with proprietary drivers, that is, the "perfect" link. Async USB, Firewire, I don't know which interface is better but IMO that would be a very nice bonus for a Naim streamer.
Posted on: 15 December 2009 by likesmusic
Isn't a streamer, by definition, something that works over a network? So it needs either wireless or ethernet connectivity, or both. Essentially a network attached dac. Wouldn't a DAC with a firewire or async USB interface be a soundcard rather than a streamer?
Posted on: 15 December 2009 by goldfinch
I was thinking in a wider definition, "something providing a sound digital output to a DAC", letting the streamer or maybe better "the digital player" to be more flexible.
Anyway, if network streaming does not compromise sound in any way, then ok, we could forget about other inputs... But do you think so?
Posted on: 15 December 2009 by likesmusic
No, I wouldn't want to forget about other inputs, because there are other sources such as cd players, dvd players, satellite boxes, mixing consoles etc. that output in real time via s/pdif. But when your music data is sitting on a disc drive I don't see it as any different from any other kind of data that you want to move across a network.
Posted on: 17 December 2009 by T38.45
just got a call from my dealer---IT HAS ARRIVED:-) chakkkka.....will stream it this eve with linn majik ds....
Posted on: 17 December 2009 by PMR
It's good to see Naim making the Christmas holidays in time. Maybe they've got Santa on the production run? They just need to send them out with a red nose now!
Posted on: 18 December 2009 by naken janne
quote:
Originally posted by T38.45:
just got a call from my dealer---IT HAS ARRIVED:-) chakkkka.....will stream it this eve with linn majik ds....
Congratulations to one of the first Dacs. Since I am a fan of both Naim and Linn, it would be very interesting to read your views about the differences between the Majik DS and the Naim DAC. Does your Majik have the Dynamik power supply?
Posted on: 18 December 2009 by glevethan
Yes - instead of streaming it with the Majik DS (hopefully with Dynamik) I would rather see a direct comparison. The prices are comparable (if you use the DAC without external power supply).
Gregg
Posted on: 18 December 2009 by T38.45
hi naken janne, glevethan;
switched it on yesterday evening....
dual connected linn ds (cara4/dynamik):
- direct analog to 282 and
- to DAC with bnc (DAC to 282)
how does it sound ?
first impression - both play on same level!
linn sounds very homogenious.... it doesn't sound harsh (sorry for my bad english)...you can easy listen a whole opera without being tired, you can follow the lines...
NAIM sounds more open, more shape, lot more details...BUT the DAC was cold (you know how NAIM sounds without sucking on power for at least 3 days)
mp3: i didn't find a difference btw. mp3 files on both systems....
flac: again, NAIM more open, more shape...
i will listen this evening again (NAIM should be warm up).
keep you informed!
ralf
Posted on: 18 December 2009 by T38.45
ok,,,,finally my impressions....
both player are on same level...as already post (NAIM is warming up now)....
I listen to Bach (FLAC), Cat Power (mp3), Handel/Ariodante (mp3)...
Linn more homogenious, easy to follow.
NAIM more space, more details, very open stage... FRESH is the right word....
My conclusion: if you do not need a DAC- go for a Linn Majik DS!
PS: I didn't hear the DAC with addtl. PSU (and i will not go for this)
PPS: I didn't hear the Linn Akurate DS as well
Posted on: 18 December 2009 by js
Give us an update in a few days.
Posted on: 18 December 2009 by naken janne
quote:
Originally posted by T38.45:
both player are on same level...as already post (NAIM is warming up now)....
T38.45, thanks for your initial comments. It would be very appreciated if you can come back after a couple of days. I am sure a lot of people are in my situation, i.e. not yet decided if I will go for a Majik DS or Naim Dac, and are curious to hear your experience. Does your Majik DS have the new power supply Dynamik?
Posted on: 18 December 2009 by T38.45
Will do folks!
Yes ,Linn has new Dynamik power and Cara 4, i am using
a Chord for Linn, Hiline for DAC.
Posted on: 18 December 2009 by AMA
Ralf,
Honestly, with your system it's good to hear how DAC is performing comparing to LP12 with Radikal/Urika
Posted on: 18 December 2009 by T38.45
....even a DAC+Majik DS can not touch a LP12+Radikal/Urika....
it is simple not from this world....
Posted on: 18 December 2009 by AMA
Time will come!!!
... meanwhile we can enjoy LP12
Posted on: 18 December 2009 by glevethan
All of a sudden there are MANY different options for computer playback at MANY different price points.
If one is to consider the Naim DAC than an obvious comparison would be a Linn Majik DS. If, however, one were to consider adding a Naim supply to the DAC , than it would be foolish not to demo the Linn Akurate DS as it is several thousand dollars cheaper than the Naim alternative. Likewise if one were to consider a full blown computer system as Naim like to propose - HDX/DAC/555PS - than the Linn Klimax DS needs to be auditioned as it too is several thousand dollars cheaper.
Many alternatives these days!
Gregg
Posted on: 19 December 2009 by T38.45
and we will wait for a NAIM streamer instead:-)
Posted on: 19 December 2009 by Exiled Highlander
Greg
quote:
Many alternatives these days!
I'm not sure I follow your point? There has always been alternatives to Naim across all of their range - so I can't follow this epiphany re digital replay that you seem to have experienced.
Cheers
Jim
