Brandenburg Concertos which is the best recording

My choices are:

Konzertgruppe der Schola Cantorum Basiliensis / August Wenzinger / Archiv (LP only 1950-53) Partially played on period instruments but the playing style is not, what we think of as HIP to day, but rather informed compared to the time of recording.

Südwestdeutsches Kammerorkester, Pforzheim / Friedrich Tilegant / Eurodisc (LP only rec. ca 1961) "Preauthentic". Tilegants first Brandenburg cycle.

Pro Musica Orchester, München / Kurt Redel / Erato (LP only rec,1962) "Preauthentic", Redels second Brandenburg cycle.

Saarländisches Kammerorkester / Karl Ristenpart / Accord rec.ca 1965 "Preauthentic", Ristenparts second Brandenburg cycle.

Dutch soloists ad hoc / Gustav Leonhardt / Sony rec.1977 HIP. A rather weak trombaist in no 2 (Claude Rippas) but the other soloists are in top (Sigiswald Kuijken, Franz Brüggen, Paul Dombrecht among others).

Linde Consort / Hans Martin Linde / EMI rec.1982 HIP

The English Concert / Trevor Pinnock / Archive rec.1982 HIP

La Petite Bande / Sigiswald Kuijken / DHM rec.1994 HIP

Combattimento Consort, Amsterdam / de Vriend / Chall rec.1996 Modern instruments but HIP style

Freiburger Barockorchester / Gottfried von der Goltz / TDK DVD rec.2000 HIP


Wenzinger, Tilegant and Redel are difficult to find to day, but may perhaps be found second-hand in France. Ristenpart is also difficult to find despite rerelease on CD, but this rerelease is for some unexplained reason Mono, even if the original LP release by the French Discophile Club and later LP (on Nonesuch) was Stereo.

quote:

Originally posted by pe-zulu

The English Concert / Trevor Pinnock / Archive rec.1982 HIP
.

I've just ordered this from Amazon. I always opt for the free postage class so will have to wait a week or so before receiving it...
Amazon currently have around 20 versions of Bach Brandenburg and I would expect there to be many more. I chose this one on the recommondation from George GFFJ from another thread a little while ago...

( Thanks George, if your reading this : )

nymph

Dear oxgangs,

I agree with Poul entirely on the choices he has suggested as far as I know them! He knows far more than me, and has directed me to much wonderful Bach performance!

My ordering is this:

[1] HM Linde [Not currently available from EMI/Virgin] - a great HIP set in stereo from about 1982.

[2] August Wenzinger [Not yet issued in CD and long deleted on LPs from DG Archiv] - a pioneering attempt in the HIP movement in recordings from 1950 [in the Sixth Concerto] and 1953 for the other Five.

[3] Adolf Busch Chamber Orchestra [Currently available in a splendid Pearl transfer from very fine EMI 78s, done in 1935, on GEMM CDS 9263]. This is my favourite performance among the historical sets, though Woldike made a splendid [complete?] set in Denmark for HMV on 78s, and the earlier set from Cortot in Paris has a great deal going for it. I think that was released by EMI a couple of years ago on CD though no doubt it has now gone again. I knew some of the concertos from the original 78 issues at school.

Pinnocks modern HIP recording on DG is a central recomendation, which will provide much pleasure and is currently available, usually found with the Four Orchestral Suites at super budget price. A bargain at any price..

ATB from George

PS: The Pinnock set is splendid isn't it, dear Nymph!

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
..though Woldike made a splendid [complete?] set in Denmark for HMV on 78s, and the earlier set from Cortot in Paris has a great deal going for it. I think that was released by EMI a couple of years ago on CD though no doubt it has now gone again.

The Wöldike set has recently been rereleased on CDs in Denmark (Classico), a remarkable set for its time. And the Cortot set was also released on CD about ten years ago by Koch, a release which is to be preferred to the much too filtered EMI release. The Koch release has got the Brahms double concerto conducted by Cortot as a filler.

Regards, Poul

Dear Poul,

You are a mine of valuable information! Thanks. I doubt that I can afford them, but I have fond memories of the three old EMI recordings as we had concertos from Busch - Sixth, Third, Second and First I think - the Fourth from Woldike, and the Second from Cortot. And my favourite of all the Sixth from Wenzinger on Lp as opposed to 78s!

My first set was the Bath Festival Orechestra on EMI HMV LPs led by Menuhin, and the second set was the Pinnock. I never got anything in between th4 two recordings in terms of the date of recording. I did not enjoy the very well received Marriner sets for example. Then came the Busch set, complete this time on French EMI LPs! That was and still is one of my three favourite sets, though the Pearl transfer is much finer than the EMI in this case!

I hope you are well. ATB fom George

Now that I have eventually figured out concerto, sonata etc. we have HIP



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I'm presuming it is however Historically Informed Performance but would appreciate an elucidation of what exactly it means and why it would (or wouldn't) be desirable



SJB

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
PS: The Pinnock set is splendid isn't it, dear Nymph!

I still await my copy... probably arrive next week sometime : )
But a decade ago a friend loaned me an excellent copy of Brandenburg which, if memory serves, was Pinnock. It had a great sense of grip and demanded ones emotional involvement. I tranferred it onto tape at the time to play on my sony-walkman and in the car... can't find that tape anywhere now, but never mind.

At present I'm listening to a CD version by the Philharmonia Slavonica, Conductor: Rudolf Pribil...
This is nice, but it just sounds a bit dry generally, and very over smooth in the Concerto No.6 in B flat major (Allegro) which 'in my very humble opinion' is the real tester for this masterpiece : >

Kind Regards
nymph

quote:

Originally posted by Sloop John B:
I'm presuming it is however Historically Informed Performance but would appreciate an elucidation of what exactly it means and why it would (or wouldn't) be desirable

You presume correctly.

In very general terms, it does what it says on the tin - i.e. aims for performance close to what it might have been in the composer's time. Authentic performance is another term that is sometimes used.

In terms of the Brandenburg's then, a historic performance would probably feature quicker tempi, a smaller (chamber sized) ensemble and arguably period instruments (instruments have mostly changed quite a bit since the time of the likes of Beethoven and Bach). An unHIP reading could be a soloist on piano, performing with the Berlin Philharmonic under Furtwangler (I have no idea if such a performance exists).

The movement's been around for around 50 years or so but only really become popular in the last 20-30. A good early example is the Mackerras performance of Handel's Firework music from 1959, where he played it with a wind ensemble as opposed to the strings you usually hear.

If you take Beethoven, over the years interpretations had grown bigger and bigger in terms of the size of ensemble used. Furthermore, in the case of the 9th symphony Wagner wrote a treatise on how it should be performed, suggesting improvements orchestration and particularly tempo. The difference can be seen by comparing extremes - Bernstein's very un-HIP reading takes over 70 minutes, Mackerras's just above 60. Wagner's suggestions were quite influential and lingered for some time and while a particularly severe example it is by no means isolated. The HIP movement was in many ways just the pendulum swinging back the other way. Now, you'll be hard pushed to find a survey of Beethoven symphonies that isn't to some extent historically informed.

However, as I noted on the Beethoven thread, it is not always a good thing. For some it strikes me as being an end in itself rather than a means to an end (as it is for Mackerras). Take for exmaple Norrington's calls for minimum speed limits in Beethoven (or his saying that the most important thing in a reading of the erioca is keeping to Beethoven's metronome marking - but I've heard readings that do that at the expense of drama). Similarly, trying exactly to recreate the performance a composer might have given or heard isn't always to meaningful. Brahms premiered some of his symphonies with small orchestras, some with large ones, similarly Haydn conducted two performances of the creation with wildly different forces. To some extent it seems likely that this was because that was what was available at the time. Often we simply don't know (what exact forces did Beethoven use to premier his symphonies). Bear in mind also that performances were often in much smaller halls....

It's not a terribly simple issue, in other words, but I hope I haven't added to your confusion too much.

George and Poul can doubtless provide more detail on the differences between period and modern instruments as they are far more knowledgeable there.


I tend to find that there are magical performances in most repertoire of both HIP and unHIP flavours and in general I would want to be without either.


On the subject of the Brandenburgs I have only the Pinnock set (HIP) with which I'm very happy. I suppose, actually, I have two, since I have Jacques Loussier's jazz versions, but I wouldn't really count them (fine though they are). I keep meaning to pick up Britten's unHIP readings too.

One last point, which is the best recording? I tend to believe that there is no such thing. But there are generally plenty of very fine ones... have fun exploring.


regards, Tam

Wonderful stuff gentlemen

Im going to have to print this out and study

thank you for your guidance

always appreciated

mike

A link to the Beethoven thread I mentioned.

http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/38019385/m/6382999017

regards, Tam

Instruments in their time.

To look at a baroque violin, you might wonder just what the difference was compared to one in modern set-up. It appears very similar, and this may well be because the best violins in modern set-up are still those made in baroque times - used and modified as the times changed ever since!

Strings:

Gut string were used up until fifty years ago, and indeed more recently on stringed instruments, but the guage [thickness] of the strings became heavier as the demand for more volume of sound grew. Most modern string are made of steel, though gut is still prefered by some players, and some instruments are set-up with perlon [siilar to Nylon] strings usually covered in flat would stainless steel.

Action:

This refers to the length of string between the top nut and the bridge. It also refers to the rake of the neck above the horizontal and it may generally be taken the the steeper the rake and the higher from the table the base of the finger board, so the greater the downward pressure on the bridge, which tends to correlate with a greater possible volume of sound, but not quality. The newer violin set-ups have longer necks and steeper rakes. Longer string lengths improve tone. The exception here is the double bass, where the the rake has been increased and the bridge made higher, but the actual string length has tended to be slightly shorter in the order of being up to 44 inches in baroque times, while for a normal full sized bass today 42 is considered usable. This is due to the trechnical difficulty of using the longer stop.

Tension in the strings:

As strings have become thicker and heavier, string lengths have increased, and the Actions of instrument have been raised, the downward tension on the bridge has grown. This has required many old instruments to have to have a heavier bass bars fitted, though bass bars tend to be replaced every fifty to one hundred years in any case. Very few old instrument even in original set-up retain their original bass bar. The bridge sits on the table [front] of a stringed instrument by the downward force alone, and in older set-ups may be moved under full temsion for small adjustements. This is not possible in modern high tension guise, without quite serious risks, except possibly for making the bridge perpendicular to the table again. Even this much is not possible on the double bass strung with steel however, and adjustments must be made with the strings detuned somewhat.

The heavier bass bar [which sits under the left foot of the bridge as viewed from the front with the neck upright], affects the sonority and articulation of the instrument significantly. More volume but greater difficulty maintaining articulation. The other foot sits near, but not directly over the sound post, which by pressure of string tension alone sits between the table and the back. On loosening off the strings it is possible for it to fall over, which involves a considerable effort to reposition it perfectly.

Summary:

Heavier strings, often of steel, steeper rake of the neck, and higher off the table, longer strings, higher bridges and greater tensions are what characterise the violin familly as it evolved from the baroque to the modern set-up.

As much could be written about the trumpet, horn, flute, oboe, basoon etc...

If no one else does it, I will cover these in less detail than the strings in the next day or two.

ATB from George

Brass and Horns.

The general notable thing is that the dynamic potential of the instruments has been increased, largely to fill the very large concert halls built in the last century, most notably in the USA. Broad-bore brass started to cross the Atlantic over the last sixty years, and it was this greater volume that caused the large scale adoption of steel strings for the violin family and double bass sections in orchestras.

One only has to compare the Boosey and Hawkes trombones used in the thirties with their modern counterparts to see the difference. The resulting balance problem is very serious as there has been no such change made in the human voice in the same period.

The trumpet and the horn were instruments that in Bach's time had no valves and could only play the harmonic series appropriate to their tube length or in the case of the Horn some extra stopped noted made by moving the hand in the bell. They were not chromatic instruments capable of playing every semi-tone. Thus trumpet music tended to be in keys like D Major as they could play more ot the suitable notes in the scale. Crooks, extra lengths of tubing, could be added between the mouthpiece and the usual instument in some cases to open up the range of useful notes the instruments could make in this or that piece.

In England there was an instrument called the Flat Trumpet, that was current in Purcell's time, which had a slide like a trombone, which itself is a decendant of the Sackbutt.

However by Haydn's time a move toward the modern trumpet with valves started, whith the adoption of keys to modify the pitch. Haydn's Trumpet Concerto was written with such a keyed instrument in mind. However these instruments were rather short lived as valves were soon introduced in the nineteenth century. The Valved Horn appeared at the end of Beethoven's career, and the third horn part in the Choral Symphony would be impossible without the valved instrument Beethoven had in mind when he set the part. Both instruments have been subject to increases in the bore to increase power, and reliability.

The issue of brass and string balance is more complex than simply the question of sheer volume of sound. A softly played brass instrument or horn makes a very beguiling sound indeed, but with an old narrow bore instrument the actual sonority could sound loud and brassy long before its volume of sound drowns the strings or woodwind. Thus a trumpet could play a very piercing note alongside the winds and strings and the less powerful instruments could still keep the balance audibly. Nowadays, all too often, the brass are balanced back to account for the less powerful instruments round them, so that they make the wrong sound at the quieter dynamic than their potential allows for, or if given their head they drown everything else with dreadful results. It is my hope that a move to less powerful brass instruments may become the norm again in future as this balance issue is once again addressed.

The Baroque Trumpet tradition. Bach and Handel both wrote music for the trumpet which was soon to be largely unplayable as the tradition of playing fell out of favour, and would not be fully resusitated till the later part of the last century. The idea of playing the trumpet solo in the Second Brandenburg concerto on the old high trumpet without valves really has not been fully mastered again until the last thirty years. An intermediate stage in the restoration of the old trumpet was an entirely new small high trumpet with valves first used between the two wars, and to be heard played gloriously in Adolf Busch's recording of the Second Brandenburg Concerto in 1935. This is less used nowadays where a tradition of playing the old valveless Baroque High trumpet has once again been established.

A side effect of this dropping of the Baroque trumpet tradition was that when Mozart rescored Handel's Messiah, he set the trumpet parts on French Horns, which for those used to having trumpets playing, comes as a shock.

ATB from George

Do try and hear the performance by Il Giardino Armonico Ensemble now on WarnersElatus label

A few words on the woodwinds:

The winds have generally also got more powerful, but not to the same extent as the brass, and in the time of Beethoven and Berlioz were made more playable with the addition of many more keys. Boehm is responsible for the modern arrangemnent which have largely remained the same since.

A particular case of a recent modern change is the adoption of the metal flute, which used to be wooden until reltively recently in most cases. There is marvelous wooden flute playing to be heard in the recordings of the Philharmonia Orchestra in the period from 1945 till the seventies. Gareth Morris was the Principle player and kept this particularly beautiful sonority going after it had generally been dropped in favour of the metal instrument with its different sound world elsewhere.

There is no doubt that in getting more volume of sound from the winds, as with the other families of instruments, some of the idiosyncratic qualities of the instruments have been lost. It is just one more price of having to have bigger, louder orchestras to fill the modern large halls now favoured. Before we address the issue of regaining the quality the old instruments had, then we must once again build smaller venues for concert giving, so that the volume of sound is still sufficient, and the extra quality is more easily perceived.

The advantage of recording is that the venue can be perfectly judged to suit the correct and appropriate instruments! There is much less excuse for using the conveinience of modern instruments than the appropriate ones on records!

ATB from George

just been given the pinnock which i will listen to ,as we say in scotland, the night.

thanks for the info

george you should consider a book on the subject of the orchestra

for my sins i am an educator

and you write very well

mike

Dear Mick,

Please email. In profile ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by oxgangs:
just been given the pinnock which i will listen to ,as we say in scotland, the night.
thanks for the info
george you should consider a book on the subject of the orchestra
for my sins i am an educator
and you write very well
mike

Hello Mike,
I ditto what you say about George's writing, always a good read!
My Brandenburg/Pinnock on Archiv came in the post yesterday from Amazon, and it's very bit superb.
Also, i have recently purchased a 5-CD set, very neatly packaged in cardboard...
Bach Concertos for Harpsichard/Violin/Flute/Oboe d'amore by Trevor Pinnock/The English Concert.

If you love the Brandenburg, I must recommend you buy this 5-CD set also, it is absolutely brilliant and at almost 5 very enjoyable hours from start to finish. Considering these 5 cd's costs less than a fiver each this is an outrageous bargin in this day and age.

Regards ~
nymph

nymph you are the darkside

i was looking at that cd set today

amaxon 2nd hand is also the darkside

on my list

mike

George,

A wonderful summation of the of the development of the brass family - your erudition still astonishes me.

In relation to the horns, the move to larger instruments appears to have been as much a result of fashion as anything else. When I was learning to play, everybody who played a brass instrument wanted to sound like the Chicago brass section, which was generally considered at the time to be the finest in the world. Many players around the world (students and professionals) bought instruments made by Conn, which have a very wide bore, in order to imitate this sound. Even Gebr Alexander, the famous German horn makers (the maker favoured by the Berlin Phil horn section) , issued a wide bore instument in the late seventies/early eighties

This led to a homogenisation of the sound made by brass sections around the world - one of the first examples of globalisation I suppose. In my opinion, this removed some of the joy of having different recordings made by different orchestras. I followed this trend myself as a young player, until I was taught by a player who still played in the old English way - with a smaller bore instrument (not small per-se, but medium rather than extra-wide) and very little vibrato. This makes a very clean sound and is the sound that I still try to maintain to this day (think Alan Civil).

The natural horn can actually fill in a large number of notes by 'stopping' (closing the hand in the bell). This considerably muffles the sound that comes out, making the instrument even quieter.

You are absolutely right to point out the difficulties of balancing between the brass section and the rest of the orchestra, particularly in chamber orchestras, using modern instruments. Use of a medium bore instrument helps, but generally one is forced to play at such low dynamic levels that accuracy must inevitably be at risk...

Alan Civil is my French Horn playing hero!

Last evening I listened to his collaboration with the Philharmonia and Klemperer in the Four Mozart Concertos! His style is very special, and his musicianship is priceless.

An interesting school of Horn playing is that which used to exist in Vienna. The old Viennese Horn is a real throwback to the early valved Horns which started to emerge in Beethoven's time, and really has only been superceded by the "global" style in the last twenty years. Once again I deplore this developement. The Chicago Brass and Horn sound had its place, and I reckon it made a great alternative to the old European styles, but there was no reason to ditch the various [French, English, Viennese etc] styles and adopt the Chicago one as a universal norm.

I know this is slightly overstated. There are still differences in national styles, but it seems a shame to me that the style developed in for example France, which developed perhaps from the music of Berlioz onwards, or Vienna where the classics were the obvious source of the old style [etc] have been lost on the alter of safety and homogenisation towards some sort of international style.

I always reckon that the old English style - most beautifully represented on records in the Philharmonia from 1945 till perhaps the late sixties - shows what we have lost in the UK, and interestingly these older examples of horn playing seem more suited to the old music of Mozart and Bach than any style adopted since except in some cases the re-adoption of the natural horn in HIP efforts.

Once the old styles are lost, however, they cannot be captured again without them becoming a sort of museum piece rather the natural mainstream. Thank goodness that records allow us at least to listen to what these older styles had to offer.

For example it is fascinating to compare Pierre Monteux leading the Fantastic Symphony in Paris in 1930 and again in 1950s Boston. I happen to think Monteux was right in believing the Paris recording offered more style and a closer approach to the music, though the Boston set on RCA is better recorded, and more accurately played...

ATB from George

Do not overlook Yehudi Menuhin with the Bath Chamber Orchestra, made around 1960 but the EMI recording is very good.

As you might expect from the date, it is not performed on period instruments, but despite (or because of?) that it is beautifully clear and musical.

Dear Dai Compi,

Absolutely! I had this set on a pair of LPs, and finally wore three sets of them out! It was never far from the Turntable, and when I wore the first set out I realised that it was pointless to buy just one replacment! So I ordered two. This set a precedent for other favourite LPs.

Thanks be for CDs in that sense! Is the Menuhin set out on CD? I got it on a licensed issue [ie liecensed from EMI and issued by a third party] and the quality was incredibly poor. Distortion on the horns, and really poor tape noise, which honestly must have been managed by a terrible transfer engineer as the recordings themselves are pristine early stereo...

My favourite performances from this set were Nos Two, Four, and Six ...

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Is the Menuhin set out on CD?

Yes since long:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Brandenburg-Concertos-Joha...d=1191711150&sr=1-14

On EMI's own Seraphim super-budget label, so the quality will be of the best. Thanks!

ATB from George

Some of my own choices :

Karl Ristenpart, Chamber Orchestra of the Sarre: Great sound as always with this combo on a 60's Nonesuch recording, a more conventional reading, not HIP but musical and fairly sanguine, if a little generic.


Pablo Casals, Marlboro Festival Orchestra : A lot of people don't like the harsh, at times brutal playing of the orchestra. I find it a unique performance, not to everyones taste but soulful and 'different' . Not the run of the mill sewing machine Bach that has become de rigueur by todays standards.


Thurston Dart, Philomusica of London : In some ways this represents my ideal performance . Good balance of HIP standards and old world emotionalism.

Leonhardt's late 70's recording has also been mentioned here. It is also well worth a listen, in my humble opinion.

I also like Klemperer on Vox but his EMI effort is too bland for my tastes.


US