Is there a future for High-End HiFi?
Posted by: Johns Naim on 16 April 2004
Afternoon All
Perhaps I should add to my opening subject,the proviso of 'of any significance'
Ambling around the forum here as I am want to do, shows the main topics to be of the usual somewhat Naim focussed thoughts (no bad thing in that) and meanderings about HiFi and Naim in general.
Nonetheless here and there pops up a few threads about the way things seem to be heading re the development of HiFi, and the ever increasing AV side of things, in fact arguably perhaps the dominant side of the equation, and how music will be deliverd in the future.
It would appear that the not-too-distant future will likely be an amalgamation of multi-channel surround into both the music as well as the HT arenas, as few people have the space and funds necessary to have two separate systems.
Further, as the pressures of time become increasingly demanding, with regards to actually being able to spend large amounts of spare time listening to music on one's high-end HiFi such as to justify the outlay required to purchase it, and the competition for disposable income with items like computers etc now coming so strongly into our lives as well, all these things combined push the high-end expensive HiFi into very much an increasing niche market, with a smaller and smaller share of the overall pie IMHO.
To be sure, it was always the province of enthusiasts and hobbyists, but it appears that in return for the smaller quantities being sold, re a diminshing market, that the prices keep ever increasing, thus placing so much that is good out of reach for many.
On that point it is very refreshing to see Naim bring out the new CD5i range etc, as it has brilliant performance, and is very affordable.
The outlook for high-end HiFi nowadays is very different IMV from when I started out with this hobby. High-end equipment, whilst not cheap, was relatively affordable for the enthusiast, and one could contemplate and aspire to actually owning 'the best'
The 'best' thesedays, in the high-end specialist scene, is really only achievable by VERY wealthy folks, or obsessives who will sacrifice overall quality of life simply to have the 'best' kit.
The mass market, i.e non-enthusiast was never interested in music seriously enough to want, or appreciate what a high-end system could do, however it seems to have embraced HT with an enthusiasm it never showed for specialist HiFi.
Perhaps it is the really quite good results in terms of the overall involvement/satisfaction factor one can get for reasonably modest outlays, or the accesibility of the 'fix' with no seeming black art/tweakery involved, but the mass market seems to have taken to HT in a way that is in stark contrast to the way serious 2 channel systems were ignored by most.
What intrigues me about this, is that with the blending of multi-channel music & HT that now appears to be happening, and arguably a pointer to the future, I sadly see 2 channel becomming more and more like valves, mono, and 78rpm records - around, there, expensive, and largely irrelevant to most except die-hard enthusiasts. Not to be harsh, but it would seem to be the reality.
Further, in the new arena of multi-channel amps etc, the innovators of new technology are invariably the mainstream manufactures, and the gap in performance between them and the specialist high-end seems to be narrowing, whilst price differences continue to increase.
In this seemingly impending new order/direction for home entertainment of the music and HT kind that seems to be fast descending upon us, I wonder how relevent the high-end specialist manufacturer will continue to be.
For example, normally one does not use the word Sony and high-end in the same sentence, however I note on some of the US HT forums, that some folks are selling/trading VERY expensive (US $10,000 +) AR valve amps on the new top of the line DA9000ES digital receiver, as with it's state of the art digital amplification it is reputed to have a similar and more than competitive valve like sound to the AR's, whilst also offering DD & DTS decoding facilities for the HT side of things, and costs a VERY great deal less.
A few years ago, to mention Sony and Audio Research in the same breath would've been deemed laughable. Times change, and I've no doubt that in the mainstream, digital amplification will be the way things will go, for various reasons - cost, size, heat, efficiency, and not least simple circuit design that promises much re sound quality - the fact that an amp like the Sony appears to compete sound-wise with high-end AR's says an awful lot for the future IMHO.
No doubt, the specialist manufacturers, recognising the trend, will either do a take on the swiss watch industry when it was threatened by the Japanese, and retreat further into producing high-end 'Rolexes', of value only to a very select few who can afford it, or come out with the equivalent of the swatch perhaps.
What does seem apparent through all of this to me, is that either my ears are going off, or the performance gap between the high-end of the mainstream makers, and the true specialist manufacturer/tweaker/tuner, is narrowing considerably, whilst the price differential only grows, as the market share for the specialist ever diminishes, and consequent costs/profit margins required to stay in business increase.
Certainly with the ever likely advent of digital amplification, and the simplicity that conveys to a circuit, the envelope for the specialist to tweak the sound to any degree so as to sound demonstrateably better, as against merely different, seems to be narrowing considerably.
Witness the sad, but recent demise of Tag McClaren. I am also under the impression that Levinson is in trouble as well. My Naim dealer here in OZ, has so far been unsucessful to the best of my knowledge in as yet selling one AV2 - the main reason simply being price, or rather the price/performance equation.
And as if my words could be prophetic in some way, I note, just having returned from some window shopping, and picking up a latest Sony catalogue, that here in OZ, they no longer offer a two channel stereo amp for sale. Period.
Personally I really applaud the new entry level Naims, as having heard them, the performance v's the price is fantastic, and holds out some hope, in terms of being able to get something quite special at a price that one can contemplate.
I would like to think in this ever and rapidly changing HT & music scene, that companies like Naim won't end up becomming the Rolex of HiFi, but will continue to make stunning and affordable components for the enthusiast. If that involves DVD, or a sub/sat system, whatever, that is fine by me, provided that there is an edge in performance over competing products, and within a relevant price structure.
Otherwise, apart from wealthy millionaires, and the afore-mentioned obsessives, out-of-sight high-end gear, and especially 2 channel looks like going the way of the 78rpm record IMHO.
Anyway, just some thoughts and general meanderings of the 2 cents variety on a Sat afternoon.
Thoughts anyone?
Cheers
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Perhaps I should add to my opening subject,the proviso of 'of any significance'
Ambling around the forum here as I am want to do, shows the main topics to be of the usual somewhat Naim focussed thoughts (no bad thing in that) and meanderings about HiFi and Naim in general.
Nonetheless here and there pops up a few threads about the way things seem to be heading re the development of HiFi, and the ever increasing AV side of things, in fact arguably perhaps the dominant side of the equation, and how music will be deliverd in the future.
It would appear that the not-too-distant future will likely be an amalgamation of multi-channel surround into both the music as well as the HT arenas, as few people have the space and funds necessary to have two separate systems.
Further, as the pressures of time become increasingly demanding, with regards to actually being able to spend large amounts of spare time listening to music on one's high-end HiFi such as to justify the outlay required to purchase it, and the competition for disposable income with items like computers etc now coming so strongly into our lives as well, all these things combined push the high-end expensive HiFi into very much an increasing niche market, with a smaller and smaller share of the overall pie IMHO.
To be sure, it was always the province of enthusiasts and hobbyists, but it appears that in return for the smaller quantities being sold, re a diminshing market, that the prices keep ever increasing, thus placing so much that is good out of reach for many.
On that point it is very refreshing to see Naim bring out the new CD5i range etc, as it has brilliant performance, and is very affordable.
The outlook for high-end HiFi nowadays is very different IMV from when I started out with this hobby. High-end equipment, whilst not cheap, was relatively affordable for the enthusiast, and one could contemplate and aspire to actually owning 'the best'
The 'best' thesedays, in the high-end specialist scene, is really only achievable by VERY wealthy folks, or obsessives who will sacrifice overall quality of life simply to have the 'best' kit.
The mass market, i.e non-enthusiast was never interested in music seriously enough to want, or appreciate what a high-end system could do, however it seems to have embraced HT with an enthusiasm it never showed for specialist HiFi.
Perhaps it is the really quite good results in terms of the overall involvement/satisfaction factor one can get for reasonably modest outlays, or the accesibility of the 'fix' with no seeming black art/tweakery involved, but the mass market seems to have taken to HT in a way that is in stark contrast to the way serious 2 channel systems were ignored by most.
What intrigues me about this, is that with the blending of multi-channel music & HT that now appears to be happening, and arguably a pointer to the future, I sadly see 2 channel becomming more and more like valves, mono, and 78rpm records - around, there, expensive, and largely irrelevant to most except die-hard enthusiasts. Not to be harsh, but it would seem to be the reality.
Further, in the new arena of multi-channel amps etc, the innovators of new technology are invariably the mainstream manufactures, and the gap in performance between them and the specialist high-end seems to be narrowing, whilst price differences continue to increase.
In this seemingly impending new order/direction for home entertainment of the music and HT kind that seems to be fast descending upon us, I wonder how relevent the high-end specialist manufacturer will continue to be.
For example, normally one does not use the word Sony and high-end in the same sentence, however I note on some of the US HT forums, that some folks are selling/trading VERY expensive (US $10,000 +) AR valve amps on the new top of the line DA9000ES digital receiver, as with it's state of the art digital amplification it is reputed to have a similar and more than competitive valve like sound to the AR's, whilst also offering DD & DTS decoding facilities for the HT side of things, and costs a VERY great deal less.
A few years ago, to mention Sony and Audio Research in the same breath would've been deemed laughable. Times change, and I've no doubt that in the mainstream, digital amplification will be the way things will go, for various reasons - cost, size, heat, efficiency, and not least simple circuit design that promises much re sound quality - the fact that an amp like the Sony appears to compete sound-wise with high-end AR's says an awful lot for the future IMHO.
No doubt, the specialist manufacturers, recognising the trend, will either do a take on the swiss watch industry when it was threatened by the Japanese, and retreat further into producing high-end 'Rolexes', of value only to a very select few who can afford it, or come out with the equivalent of the swatch perhaps.
What does seem apparent through all of this to me, is that either my ears are going off, or the performance gap between the high-end of the mainstream makers, and the true specialist manufacturer/tweaker/tuner, is narrowing considerably, whilst the price differential only grows, as the market share for the specialist ever diminishes, and consequent costs/profit margins required to stay in business increase.
Certainly with the ever likely advent of digital amplification, and the simplicity that conveys to a circuit, the envelope for the specialist to tweak the sound to any degree so as to sound demonstrateably better, as against merely different, seems to be narrowing considerably.
Witness the sad, but recent demise of Tag McClaren. I am also under the impression that Levinson is in trouble as well. My Naim dealer here in OZ, has so far been unsucessful to the best of my knowledge in as yet selling one AV2 - the main reason simply being price, or rather the price/performance equation.
And as if my words could be prophetic in some way, I note, just having returned from some window shopping, and picking up a latest Sony catalogue, that here in OZ, they no longer offer a two channel stereo amp for sale. Period.
Personally I really applaud the new entry level Naims, as having heard them, the performance v's the price is fantastic, and holds out some hope, in terms of being able to get something quite special at a price that one can contemplate.
I would like to think in this ever and rapidly changing HT & music scene, that companies like Naim won't end up becomming the Rolex of HiFi, but will continue to make stunning and affordable components for the enthusiast. If that involves DVD, or a sub/sat system, whatever, that is fine by me, provided that there is an edge in performance over competing products, and within a relevant price structure.
Otherwise, apart from wealthy millionaires, and the afore-mentioned obsessives, out-of-sight high-end gear, and especially 2 channel looks like going the way of the 78rpm record IMHO.
Anyway, just some thoughts and general meanderings of the 2 cents variety on a Sat afternoon.
Thoughts anyone?
Cheers
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
quote:Hy John!
Originally posted by Johns Naim:
Afternoon All
Perhaps I should add to my opening subject,the proviso of 'of any significance'
Ambling around the forum here as I am want to do, shows the main topics to be of the usual somewhat Naim focussed thoughts (no bad thing in that) and meanderings about HiFi and Naim in general.
Nonetheless here and there pops up a few threads about the way things seem to be heading re the development of HiFi, and the ever increasing AV side of things, in fact arguably perhaps the dominant side of the equation, and how music will be deliverd in the future.
It would appear that the not-too-distant future will likely be an amalgamation of multi-channel surround into both the music as well as the HT arenas, as few people have the space and funds necessary to have two separate systems.
Further, as the pressures of time become increasingly demanding, with regards to actually being able to spend large amounts of spare time listening to music on one's high-end HiFi such as to justify the outlay required to purchase it, and the competition for disposable income with items like computers etc now coming so strongly into our lives as well, all these things combined push the high-end expensive HiFi into very much an increasing niche market, with a smaller and smaller share of the overall pie IMHO.
To be sure, it was always the province of enthusiasts and hobbyists, but it appears that in return for the smaller quantities being sold, re a diminshing market, that the prices keep ever increasing, thus placing so much that is good out of reach for many.
On that point it is very refreshing to see Naim bring out the new CD5i range etc, as it has brilliant performance, and is very affordable.
The outlook for high-end HiFi nowadays is very different IMV from when I started out with this hobby. High-end equipment, whilst not cheap, was relatively affordable for the enthusiast, and one could contemplate and aspire to actually owning 'the best'
The 'best' thesedays, in the high-end specialist scene, is really only achievable by VERY wealthy folks, or obsessives who will sacrifice overall quality of life simply to have the 'best' kit.
The mass market, i.e non-enthusiast was never interested in music seriously enough to want, or appreciate what a high-end system could do, however it seems to have embraced HT with an enthusiasm it never showed for specialist HiFi.
Perhaps it is the really quite good results in terms of the overall involvement/satisfaction factor one can get for reasonably modest outlays, or the accesibility of the 'fix' with no seeming black art/tweakery involved, but the mass market seems to have taken to HT in a way that is in stark contrast to the way serious 2 channel systems were ignored by most.
What intrigues me about this, is that with the blending of multi-channel music & HT that now appears to be happening, and arguably a pointer to the future, I sadly see 2 channel becomming more and more like valves, mono, and 78rpm records - around, there, expensive, and largely irrelevant to most except die-hard enthusiasts. Not to be harsh, but it would seem to be the reality.
Further, in the new arena of multi-channel amps etc, the innovators of new technology are invariably the mainstream manufactures, and the gap in performance between them and the specialist high-end seems to be narrowing, whilst price differences continue to increase.
In this seemingly impending new order/direction for home entertainment of the music and HT kind that seems to be fast descending upon us, I wonder how relevent the high-end specialist manufacturer will continue to be.
For example, normally one does not use the word Sony and high-end in the same sentence, however I note on some of the US HT forums, that some folks are selling/trading VERY expensive (US $10,000 +) AR valve amps on the new top of the line DA9000ES digital receiver, as with it's state of the art digital amplification it is reputed to have a similar and more than competitive valve like sound to the AR's, whilst also offering DD & DTS decoding facilities for the HT side of things, and costs a VERY great deal less.
A few years ago, to mention Sony and Audio Research in the same breath would've been deemed laughable. Times change, and I've no doubt that in the mainstream, digital amplification will be the way things will go, for various reasons - cost, size, heat, efficiency, and not least simple circuit design that promises much re sound quality - the fact that an amp like the Sony appears to compete sound-wise with high-end AR's says an awful lot for the future IMHO.
No doubt, the specialist manufacturers, recognising the trend, will either do a take on the swiss watch industry when it was threatened by the Japanese, and retreat further into producing high-end 'Rolexes', of value only to a very select few who can afford it, or come out with the equivalent of the swatch perhaps.
What does seem apparent through all of this to me, is that either my ears are going off, or the performance gap between the high-end of the mainstream makers, and the true specialist manufacturer/tweaker/tuner, is narrowing considerably, whilst the price differential only grows, as the market share for the specialist ever diminishes, and consequent costs/profit margins required to stay in business increase.
Certainly with the ever likely advent of digital amplification, and the simplicity that conveys to a circuit, the envelope for the specialist to tweak the sound to any degree so as to sound demonstrateably better, as against merely different, seems to be narrowing considerably.
Witness the sad, but recent demise of Tag McClaren. I am also under the impression that Levinson is in trouble as well. My Naim dealer here in OZ, has so far been unsucessful to the best of my knowledge in as yet selling one AV2 - the main reason simply being price, or rather the price/performance equation.
And as if my words could be prophetic in some way, I note, just having returned from some window shopping, and picking up a latest Sony catalogue, that here in OZ, they no longer offer a two channel stereo amp for sale. Period.
Personally I really applaud the new entry level Naims, as having heard them, the performance v's the price is fantastic, and holds out some hope, in terms of being able to get something quite special at a price that one can contemplate.
I would like to think in this ever and rapidly changing HT & music scene, that companies like Naim won't end up becomming the Rolex of HiFi, but will continue to make stunning and affordable components for the enthusiast. If that involves DVD, or a sub/sat system, whatever, that is fine by me, provided that there is an edge in performance over competing products, and within a relevant price structure.
Otherwise, apart from wealthy millionaires, and the afore-mentioned obsessives, out-of-sight high-end gear, and especially 2 channel looks like going the way of the 78rpm record IMHO.
Anyway, just some thoughts and general meanderings of the 2 cents variety on a Sat afternoon.
Thoughts anyone?
Cheers
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
think there is no future for high end hifi.and
after more than 20 years there exists no exact
definition of thev term "high end"
think there is a future for natural sounding music reproduction.
Naim,Linn,FM acoustics,Nad are still on there (successfull)2channel ways.But they also began
to go the multichannel way.
Multichannel was a product that was pushed
by industry(you n e e d a DvD othewise you cant watch our new movies,and you n e e d 6channels to hear the c o m p l e te sound.)(would not exist without special kind of software)
Part of marketing for multichannel was,to make
consumer dependant on the software and
therefore consumer had to buy the hardware.
So multichannel does not need a special lobby
of enthusiasts like Hifi or highend Freaks.
HT is often more akind of lifestyle(bring the cinema to your home)than a matter of quality to
the buyers.
Hifi and highend are products pulled by the consumers.(we want better sound)
They do not pull as they did before HT was invented.and therefore only the best 2channel
equipmentmanufactureres will survive.
Audio research has a special position on the
Valve market,think they are the biggest
company that does only valve amplifiers.(no solid state any more)and until now i think no
multichannel. maybe a good idea to be that
conservative in the amp market.(and their amps
have bypass switches to integrate any Multichannel amp with front preouts.)
Think naims unity gain is an very important
feature in Hifi of today.It is the missing link between Hifi and HT.And i do not know
other eqipment with this feature in 5i priceclass.
O.J.
Only necessary difference between stereo and multichanel
is that there is the posibility to have more
than one listener place in a (real)cinema.they do it with more speakers and a special delay for every speaker.At home you
have only the posibility to create o n e listener place that is not in perfect stereotriangle.
Most people (and so do i)use the same listenerplace for Hifi Music
and home theater watching.
So the only soudwise benefit of a 5channel
home theater is that theprocessor can decode
the multichannel software.whole information could be also on a stereo cd and reproduced by only two speakers if the room information would be given in the producton process of software with phase shiftings.
there would be no need of 6 speakers and no longer signal paths(through processors)and it
would sound as great as our stereo always does.
and if you would syncronise this signal
with a DVd(which should be no problem via digital output) only to get the picture from there there would be solved the bad sound problem coming out of nearby all dvd players(compared to cd players) 
O.J.(dreaming about perfect sound reproduction)
is that there is the posibility to have more
than one listener place in a (real)cinema.they do it with more speakers and a special delay for every speaker.At home you
have only the posibility to create o n e listener place that is not in perfect stereotriangle.
Most people (and so do i)use the same listenerplace for Hifi Music
and home theater watching.
So the only soudwise benefit of a 5channel
home theater is that theprocessor can decode
the multichannel software.whole information could be also on a stereo cd and reproduced by only two speakers if the room information would be given in the producton process of software with phase shiftings.
there would be no need of 6 speakers and no longer signal paths(through processors)and it
would sound as great as our stereo always does.
and if you would syncronise this signalwith a DVd(which should be no problem via digital output) only to get the picture from there there would be solved the bad sound problem coming out of nearby all dvd players(compared to cd players)
O.J.(dreaming about perfect sound reproduction)
Software availability may be more important than the hardware in the media survival stakes. If you can't buy records then you must buy CDs to get new listening material.
Yesterday in the large city of Odense I found myself unable to buy classial music CDs let alone classical records. In a few of the bigger CD music chains they have a small selection of "popular" classics. "Best of Mozart" etc."
There was one really excellent classical/pop CD music shop in the shopping high street but sadly it is now gone.
Second-hand vinyl is still readily available here. I actually bought a clean-looking copy of 'Gaucho'! But it is quite unplayable & unlistenable on the old Sondek/Valhalla/Ittok 8/DL304 due to the usual 'rice crispies'.
So I just filed it (and the Sondek) away (yet again) and bought the CD to play on my new (very-low-end) NAD (underclass budget model) T-533 DVD/CD/DVD A player! To me it sounds absolutey bløødy amazing! Don't you just hate it when that happens? Tut tut!
Nime
Yesterday in the large city of Odense I found myself unable to buy classial music CDs let alone classical records. In a few of the bigger CD music chains they have a small selection of "popular" classics. "Best of Mozart" etc."
There was one really excellent classical/pop CD music shop in the shopping high street but sadly it is now gone.
Second-hand vinyl is still readily available here. I actually bought a clean-looking copy of 'Gaucho'! But it is quite unplayable & unlistenable on the old Sondek/Valhalla/Ittok 8/DL304 due to the usual 'rice crispies'.
So I just filed it (and the Sondek) away (yet again) and bought the CD to play on my new (very-low-end) NAD (underclass budget model) T-533 DVD/CD/DVD A player! To me it sounds absolutey bløødy amazing! Don't you just hate it when that happens? Tut tut!
Nime
Hello Everyone
In my fairly regular travels around the various HiFi/HT forums, I pretty much wind up coming back here, to home base as it were, not just because I'm a Naim owner, but for the excellent and considered opinion often to be found here, along with of course, the camaradarie, and I thank everyone for writing in.
I guess at the end of the day, quality is quality, and there will always be a place & market for those selling and those in pursuit of excellence, or something at least better than the mainstream. For which I applaud, as I'm sure we all do.
Perhaps I tend to forget the quality is quality angle sometimes myself, as I take in and absorb all the changes that seem to be happening so quickly re the new and developing technology, and trends in the market place.
I think the mainstream choice now, apart from the ubiquitious 'mini-system' is very much an AV receiver, and 2 or more speakers if space permits. Certainly most non-enthusiast friends I know are happy to have a new shiny silver HT in a box type solution with small sats and a sub where space is at a premium.
They love the excitement, bang and crash of the movies, and use such systems for music as well. However, virtually none of them either have the time or interest to sit and absorb/meditate/listen seriously to music - often it's just a background fill-in whilst doing the vacuuming, cooking, entertaining a few friends over drinks etc.
As such, these systems appear to do all that they require, and are seemingly interested in.
One friend who heard my Naim system, said it was the best he'd ever heard, but given the cost could no way justify that amount of money spent on one interest given his overall income and other interests etc, AND the time he'd have to spend with it to justify the investment, wasn't availble to him.
I get the impression from a number of friends, that they all like the quality, but cost, and the time factor re being able to sit and listen to it on a regular basis are the two principal 'no sale' components re their choice of not to go there re high-end HiFi, be it Naim or anything else.
Given that I myself as a 'diehard' enthusiast am finding it hard to allocate more than a modicum of hours sometimes, to spend in recreational music 'listening' I can identify with this.
Further, having just the other week re-insured etc for contents, including the HiFi, going around and valuing everything in terms of REPLACEMENT costs was frightening.
I run CDI/72/Hi-Cap/180/SBL's, which as a sytem is now around the 8 yr old mark, and has and continues to give wonderful enjoyment, BUT given the costs of the new equivalent products, I doubt I could ever afford such a system again, without making some serious sacrifices which I'm not sure now, being just that little bit older, and with other financial needs/aims, I'd be prepared to do. Certainly with insurance/replacement costs, I now understand the cost/VFM/time equation my friends face only to well, when contemplating the cost and returns of highend equipment.
From the listening I have done, personally I don't find multi-channel SACD brings much to the overall enjoyment factor as regards music.
If one regards the presentation aspects of stereo as giving either a spread of sound across the front, such as to be an acoustic window on a wider performance, or, in a more upfront presentation, to bring the performers into the room, then multi-channel puts you in the concert hall.
However, as regards the musical message and emotion of the performance, the gains are quite small in comparison with the cost to achieve them with commensurate quality amps and speakers for the extra channels etc IMHO.
From that point of view, I see no reason why the enthusiast/seeker of 'quality' could not be happy to continue with 2 channel mid to highend products.
The difficulty I fear, is that the mass marketing of AV as the new/big thing for combined HT & music, and dumbing down of standards and expectations generally, plus the aforementioned cost and spare time considerations, will mean that the enthusiast market will become ever smaller, and consequently the products ever more expensive.
That personally presents a real problem for me, as I like, and appreciate quality, and am prepared to pay a reasonable bit more for it, but not four and five times the cost, for arguablly small and often subjective diferences.
That is where, re the nub of it I think, I worry about the direction and future of high-end quality HiFi - essentially catering for a diminishing market and pricing itself out of reach for enthusiasts who possess less than an millionaires income. As an example, I mentioned earlier the sad demise of TAG McClaren - having given up some months back on 2 channel/stereo, and continuing with HT/AV,they have obviously made a decision based upon returns, to sell of what was obviously an unprofitable businees. At their elevated price level, not enough people were, or were able to afford, or interested enough to buy, their very expensive products it would seem.
Having heard a CDX2/XPS/552/SC/250/Allaes, as the best Naim gear I've ever heard, it was listened to out of curiousity, and whilst excellent, was still not 'perfect' IMV, and thus regretfully dismissed out of hand, as being not 'perfect' and completely unaffordable - given that the sytem cost more than a new BMW 3 series, which in turn attracts 15% import tariff, and 17% luxury car tax, I think my thoughts of it being millionaires territory are reasonable.
What DID impress me, was the CD5i, and Nait CD5i I heard recently. I thought it sounded great, very satisfying indeed, but the best point was that for a bit more than say top-of-the-line mainstream, aka Denon, Yamaha etc, I could have Naim quality and sound. A no-brainer as our US friends are want to say.
Whilst it's important to have 'flagship' cost no object products, just as car companies like Mercedes-Benz, and now BMW are moving into the high-end mainstream aka VW Golf etc, with products like the A-Class, and forthcoming 1 Class BMW, so as to increase their sales/customer base, so IMHO do companies like Naim need to cultivate similar markets in the HiFi field. Otherwise, I do see them if not going under, certainly just producing very high-end and expensive products, largely irrelevant for most of us, just like the Rolex watch example I used earlier.
As an enthusiast, and Naim fan, I would hate to see this happen. I would hope, that whatever the shakedown of format wars re DVD-Audio/SACD produce, developments of technology re HD delivery systems perhaps, that companies like Naim will be there, offering that little bit extra quality, but I sincerly hope at quantity levels that will make their products something that we can all realistically financially aspire to owning.
Heh, I can't afford a Rolex, but something better than a Seiko would be nice, an Omega Seamaster perhaps?
But that's another topic..
Warmest Regards to All
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
In my fairly regular travels around the various HiFi/HT forums, I pretty much wind up coming back here, to home base as it were, not just because I'm a Naim owner, but for the excellent and considered opinion often to be found here, along with of course, the camaradarie, and I thank everyone for writing in.
I guess at the end of the day, quality is quality, and there will always be a place & market for those selling and those in pursuit of excellence, or something at least better than the mainstream. For which I applaud, as I'm sure we all do.
Perhaps I tend to forget the quality is quality angle sometimes myself, as I take in and absorb all the changes that seem to be happening so quickly re the new and developing technology, and trends in the market place.
I think the mainstream choice now, apart from the ubiquitious 'mini-system' is very much an AV receiver, and 2 or more speakers if space permits. Certainly most non-enthusiast friends I know are happy to have a new shiny silver HT in a box type solution with small sats and a sub where space is at a premium.
They love the excitement, bang and crash of the movies, and use such systems for music as well. However, virtually none of them either have the time or interest to sit and absorb/meditate/listen seriously to music - often it's just a background fill-in whilst doing the vacuuming, cooking, entertaining a few friends over drinks etc.
As such, these systems appear to do all that they require, and are seemingly interested in.
One friend who heard my Naim system, said it was the best he'd ever heard, but given the cost could no way justify that amount of money spent on one interest given his overall income and other interests etc, AND the time he'd have to spend with it to justify the investment, wasn't availble to him.
I get the impression from a number of friends, that they all like the quality, but cost, and the time factor re being able to sit and listen to it on a regular basis are the two principal 'no sale' components re their choice of not to go there re high-end HiFi, be it Naim or anything else.
Given that I myself as a 'diehard' enthusiast am finding it hard to allocate more than a modicum of hours sometimes, to spend in recreational music 'listening' I can identify with this.
Further, having just the other week re-insured etc for contents, including the HiFi, going around and valuing everything in terms of REPLACEMENT costs was frightening.
I run CDI/72/Hi-Cap/180/SBL's, which as a sytem is now around the 8 yr old mark, and has and continues to give wonderful enjoyment, BUT given the costs of the new equivalent products, I doubt I could ever afford such a system again, without making some serious sacrifices which I'm not sure now, being just that little bit older, and with other financial needs/aims, I'd be prepared to do. Certainly with insurance/replacement costs, I now understand the cost/VFM/time equation my friends face only to well, when contemplating the cost and returns of highend equipment.
From the listening I have done, personally I don't find multi-channel SACD brings much to the overall enjoyment factor as regards music.
If one regards the presentation aspects of stereo as giving either a spread of sound across the front, such as to be an acoustic window on a wider performance, or, in a more upfront presentation, to bring the performers into the room, then multi-channel puts you in the concert hall.
However, as regards the musical message and emotion of the performance, the gains are quite small in comparison with the cost to achieve them with commensurate quality amps and speakers for the extra channels etc IMHO.
From that point of view, I see no reason why the enthusiast/seeker of 'quality' could not be happy to continue with 2 channel mid to highend products.
The difficulty I fear, is that the mass marketing of AV as the new/big thing for combined HT & music, and dumbing down of standards and expectations generally, plus the aforementioned cost and spare time considerations, will mean that the enthusiast market will become ever smaller, and consequently the products ever more expensive.
That personally presents a real problem for me, as I like, and appreciate quality, and am prepared to pay a reasonable bit more for it, but not four and five times the cost, for arguablly small and often subjective diferences.
That is where, re the nub of it I think, I worry about the direction and future of high-end quality HiFi - essentially catering for a diminishing market and pricing itself out of reach for enthusiasts who possess less than an millionaires income. As an example, I mentioned earlier the sad demise of TAG McClaren - having given up some months back on 2 channel/stereo, and continuing with HT/AV,they have obviously made a decision based upon returns, to sell of what was obviously an unprofitable businees. At their elevated price level, not enough people were, or were able to afford, or interested enough to buy, their very expensive products it would seem.
Having heard a CDX2/XPS/552/SC/250/Allaes, as the best Naim gear I've ever heard, it was listened to out of curiousity, and whilst excellent, was still not 'perfect' IMV, and thus regretfully dismissed out of hand, as being not 'perfect' and completely unaffordable - given that the sytem cost more than a new BMW 3 series, which in turn attracts 15% import tariff, and 17% luxury car tax, I think my thoughts of it being millionaires territory are reasonable.
What DID impress me, was the CD5i, and Nait CD5i I heard recently. I thought it sounded great, very satisfying indeed, but the best point was that for a bit more than say top-of-the-line mainstream, aka Denon, Yamaha etc, I could have Naim quality and sound. A no-brainer as our US friends are want to say.
Whilst it's important to have 'flagship' cost no object products, just as car companies like Mercedes-Benz, and now BMW are moving into the high-end mainstream aka VW Golf etc, with products like the A-Class, and forthcoming 1 Class BMW, so as to increase their sales/customer base, so IMHO do companies like Naim need to cultivate similar markets in the HiFi field. Otherwise, I do see them if not going under, certainly just producing very high-end and expensive products, largely irrelevant for most of us, just like the Rolex watch example I used earlier.
As an enthusiast, and Naim fan, I would hate to see this happen. I would hope, that whatever the shakedown of format wars re DVD-Audio/SACD produce, developments of technology re HD delivery systems perhaps, that companies like Naim will be there, offering that little bit extra quality, but I sincerly hope at quantity levels that will make their products something that we can all realistically financially aspire to owning.
Heh, I can't afford a Rolex, but something better than a Seiko would be nice, an Omega Seamaster perhaps?
But that's another topic..
Warmest Regards to All
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
Just to be completely contrare, I read something yesterday that made me sit up somewhat, to say the least.
A piece written by Alvin Gold for a Malaysian HiFi rag, where he commented on the sound of the new Digital DA9000ES Sony receiver, along with the matching 9000ES series multi-channel SACD player, in which he opinioned it was the best digital amp he'd ever heard, AND whilst listening in TWO channel mode.
What really struck me, was the comment that apparantly Sony are also developing a STEREO amp using this digital amplifier technology, AND reputedly a TWO channel SACD player to go with it! - will wonders never cease!
Yours slightly confused,,
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
A piece written by Alvin Gold for a Malaysian HiFi rag, where he commented on the sound of the new Digital DA9000ES Sony receiver, along with the matching 9000ES series multi-channel SACD player, in which he opinioned it was the best digital amp he'd ever heard, AND whilst listening in TWO channel mode.
What really struck me, was the comment that apparantly Sony are also developing a STEREO amp using this digital amplifier technology, AND reputedly a TWO channel SACD player to go with it! - will wonders never cease!
Yours slightly confused,,
John...
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary
quote:
AND reputedly a TWO channel SACD player to go with it! - will wonders never cease!
Yours slightly confused,,
John...
Hiya John
Been reading the comments with interest. Great to read that someone's thinking about the BIG picture rather than usual "is a hicap better than a flatcap?" questions. I didn't mean that to sound pompous, just that anything out of the usual sticks out
I'm not really into the multi-channel music thing myself (movies are a different issue!) but I must say that this latest development is finally something that makes sense.
Why?
Well I think they've finally been realistic about who the high res target actually is. It's you and I that already have a decent 2 channel system and not a gazillion speakers in their living room.
What could be better than a high res format that reproduces realistic music, sounds a pile better than CD, as good as vinyl (if not better) and doesn't make your lounge look like Easter Island?
I'd buy one if Naim put one out
Jay
PS If I could afford it!
quote:
"when you get older, so do your ears. They need better care so buy them quality HiFi. Call us to discuss a power supply upgrade for your hearing aid"
*Giggle***snort*, PRICELESS.. :
D Cheers
John..... picking himself up off the floor..
Populist thinking exalts the simplistic and the ordinary