Professional Second Hand Dealers: Good idea or not?

Mike,

There has to be a place for everyone. There are those that are quite happy doing the legwork themselves and trawling through the second hand sales sites and there are those that prefer to pay a bit extra to have someone else do it for them.

I beleive the professional buyer has a part to play particularly when looking for a rare item. As you say anyone can find a used 250 on the market but how many can put their hands on a good 552?


Regards


NB

Hi Mike,

Interesting point.

Once again I can only speak about my own operation, but 98% of my stock is offered directly to me rather that me having to scour the market. This either comes from people selling up part of, or their entire systems to me, or from items that customers have part exchanged. The other 2% are specialised items that I will track down for clients at their request.

In the first instance these systems would not come onto the private sales market, as these guys simply cannot be bothered with the time and effort involved in trying to sell off items individually only to be left with certain items that hang around for ever.

With part exchanged goods, this is a useful service for customers who need to free up capital invested in their existing kit before upgrading, and there cannot be too many private sellers who are prepared to take items in part exchange.

As I've mentioned before, I belive the market caters for all price points, with those wishing to do the leg work and pick up bargains amply served, in addition to those customers who want the reassurance and back up of a dealer who are equally looked after.

Any premimum that is paid covers collecting the kit, testing and auditioning of the items, extensive dems, advice, home trials, delivery & installation and a 12 month guarantee. Equally my business has to maintain a certain margin in order to ensure that it continues to be viable and I am still here to honour any warranty claims.

This is the sort of service that many customers want and are happy to pay for, and the same premium to cover these services is factored in to the margins that dealers make on new kit.

To return to your original point, the prices of used naim kit continue to maintain their strength and I believe this is down to the quality of the original product and it's suitability as the ideal second user proposition.

Cheers,
James
tom tom audio

quote:

---

Originally posted by mike lacey:
Lets say I want a 250. If I scour the markets I may well be able to find one. BUT, the second hand dealer is ALSO scouring the market for kit; may even be willing to bid higher on ePay and so the actual amount of stock "freely" available decreases, and also, through the operation of supply and demand, prices tend to creep upwards.

---

I don't think it works like that. The professional dealer would want a mark-up when he sells the amp on. If he buys at a higher price than you'd be prepared to pay and then puts on his margin, he'll have priced himself out of the market.

I'd say a used dealer who wants to stay in business can't afford to ask more than 5-10% more than would be fair in a private sale. He must therefor try to buy at a lower price; the lower price is justified by the amount of hassle the seller saves himself by selling quickly and to someone who knows what he's doing (I have more or less given up on selling privately for this very reason: too many timewasters; I remember selling an Epos 14 way back; one prospective buyer drove about 250 miles to hear my pair, his wife in tow. He listened to my system for two hours, asked lots of dumb questions and finally decided that he needed a better turntable before getting a better speaker. There's a reason why I have never been tempted even slightly to become a dealer).

Markus

I still feel that this drives the market price upwards. Having the time and inclination to look hard for second hand kit meanes that the full time dealer will tend to get there before you and I.

Given this, sought after items will become in shorter supply and as mentioned, supply and demand means that the price moves upwards as the goods become scarce. There is also the fact that people can negotiate prices downwards; a full time dealer will have greater expertise in doing this than you or I, and be less willing or amenable to reducing their prices.

Taking this to an extreme for the sake of example, if second hand dealers bought most of a particular item that is on the market, the price that the rest of us would have to pay would go up, and the price that the dealer CAN charge will also rise.

Regards

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and Happy

I doubt there's a sufficient number of independent dealers in operation to affect the market very much, certainly not to the same extent as it might be by people paying silly prices on eBay.

If an item's has a secondhand value of say £500, a dealer buys it for cash for 10-15% less than this and sells for a similar markup, he makes £100 or so on it, gives a warranty and everybody's happy. Or maybe I'm wrong.

David

I think it's a great idea to try a dealer as I suspect that most dealers who are Naim dealers will take pieces of kit in PX against new kit.
If they can recover the sum they allowed on the PX, most would be happy. (They've made a profit on the new gear they've just sold)
It does not neccesarily follow that a dealer will search out a piece of kit specifically for a 2nd hand buyer.
I think it's more the case of "excuse me Mr Dealer, have you got a 250 (or whatever) in stock, 2nd hand?"
The answer may well be "Yes, I do as it happens" or it might be "Not at the moment, but I have someone in the process of buying a 300 so I will probably have one the week after next" or whatever.
Bearing in mind that a dealer is likely to offer a seller a lower price than they might expect to get on eBay, the same dealer may sell the kit on at a lower price than you might expect to pay on eBay.
I would suggest that you contact the dealers and see if they have what you're looking for and ask the price......
I have personally bought Naim kit from dealers at a better price than I could on eBay on more than one occasion.
By the way, there are 2, mint, Chrome 250's for sale on eBay at the moment (consequtive serial no's), with a starting price of only £500 but at my last look, zero bids......
OK, the seller has a "0" feedback rating but I happen to know that he's legit

Computers are supposed to work on 1's and 0's - in other words "Yes" or "No" - why does mine frequently say "Maybe"?......

What's the markup to the retailer on Naim kit? Any dealers (particularly UK) prepared to answer? I know there are stock levels, staffing costs, premises etc to pay out of that so not asking to have a go just interested?

-- woody

I recently purchased a Supercap which was part of some ongoing upgrades. At the time I had a a 112/150 combo to get rid of and as a result of the Supercap purchase I also then had 2 HiCaps to add to the disposal.

The 112/150 combo had been hanging around for a while and I had gone thru' 3 failed sales oprtunities. In each case the prospect had Nait 5 and was considering the 112/150 as an upgrade. Each time they wavered when it sunk in that it really was'nt that much of an upgrade on a Nait 5.
The message was becoming clear it was not as easy to sell a 112/150 as I had thought. Add the problem that I had quite a few people who wanted the 150 to add to their Nait but not the 112, but that was'nt going to work because a 112 for sale by itself would be like a spare whatsit at a wedding.

I explained my tale of woe to the dealer who offered me two options:
1) He would give me a trade in value for the kit (112/150 + 2 HiCaps) which he quoted a value for which was quite low. He warned that this was based on not having any customers for the kit and so having to carry the debt until he did find customers.
2) He would sell it for me and get the best price he could which he would pass onto me MINUS his commision on sale & the cost of giving a warranty to the customers he sold to.

I opted for option 2) and am quite satisfied with what I got out of the deal. In practice it took about 6 weeks for him to sell the kit for me and when I asked he confirmed that in the case of the 112/150 it had involved a demo with and without one of the Hicaps to make the sale. Not an easy thing to do via ePAY etc.

OK so I did'nt get top dollar for the sale but it was'nt too shabby being a little over half the price of a new XPS2 (which is about to be delivered BTW).I also had no more hassle with the ups and downs of on/off private sales, let alone the risk associated with getting the money and shipping the kit etc.

No I think working with a Naim dealer who will typically be a genuine enthusiast and having none of the private sale hassle and work is an attractive way to go.

regards
GEOFF

The lazier you are - the more you pay.
The more impatient you are - the more you pay.
The more cautious you are - the more you pay.
The more recently serviced you want - the more you pay.
The newer the facia you want - the more you pay.
The dumber you are – the more you pay.

Personally, most people I know buy more s/h gear than new gear and yet Naim seems to be a thriving business. A couple of “professional” dealers pushing out ten items a month are hardly a “market force”. The onus is on the dealer to compete with the market not the other way round. James at Tom Tom must surely buy cheap to avoid being stuck with a load of over priced stock. I don’t think we are dealing with a De Beers situation here. James and his mates haven’t changed my mind on paying around 1/2 price for a second hand item but boredom of waiting for a nicely priced hicap tempted me to pay a 10% premium…. not long after this temptation I bought a fresh factory recapped one for 425 GBP….. ironically from my local dealer.

What is far more likely with the s/h trader angle is, as with most businesses of this ilk, it is whom they know (and more importantly, who you don’t know) that provides them with a ready source of product. Not loot, or ebay, or whathifinewsreviewophile


My advice – don’t sweat it Mike, just get buying after all you already missed all these…


http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3081760859&category=3280
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3083080336&category=3280
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3083584627&category=3280
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3083298093&category=3280

etc


These completed items were a bargain weren’t they?


Cheers



Julian

Ps I had a number of very pleasant conversations with James Tom Tom and was about to buy a Hicap from him but in the end he was beaten on price – the risk he takes for you the lazy/impatient/dumb/fussy punter.

now 82/135's

quote:

---

Originally posted by julian62/135:


My advice – don’t sweat it Mike, just get buying after all you already missed all these…

These completed items were a bargain weren’t they?

Cheers
Julian

---

Bargains maybe but either kit I have or not as good as mine. Older, too. The sort of kit I am looking for is considerably newer than these items and as such pricier and I believe, more sought after by the full time 2nd hand dealer

No sweat here....

Regards

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and Happy

quote:

---

Originally posted by julian62/135:
The lazier you are - the more you pay.
The more impatient you are - the more you pay.
The more cautious you are - the more you pay.
The more recently serviced you want - the more you pay.
The newer the facia you want - the more you pay.
The dumber you are – the more you pay.

....... but boredom of waiting for a nicely priced hicap tempted me to pay a 10% premium….

---

Hmmmmm......you would have paid 10% more?

Regards

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and Happy

The market for used Naim gear is an interesting study. My personal experience with it is;

1) The demand for used Naim gear is as big (perhaps bigger) than for new Naim gear.

2) Used Naim gear can only come into being if more new Naim gear is sold, making the whole market for used Naim gear hit and miss.

3) When selling used Naim gear, the seller always wants huge money (for all the wonderful Naim reasons).

4) When buying used Naim gear, the buyer always wants it for free (all the wonderful Naim reasons now not so important).

5) Naim enthusiasts get annoyed when they cannot find newer models with high serial numbers used at knock down prices.

My observations from all of this, Naim has to expand the market for new products above and away from the "forum" types in order to insure an appropriate future supply of used gear.

If somebody is enthusiastic enough about selling used Naim products full time, and have all the knowledge and experience required to make a proper job of it, why not just become a full blown new Naim dealer and get on with it. The used gear will follow along shortly, and you can have the best of both worlds.

"My observations from all of this, Naim has to expand the market for new products above and away from the "forum" types in order to insure an appropriate future supply of used gear."

not so sorry, "forum types" as though we sit down at our product meetings and plan the forum type "non" product.
We take care to offer as far as we can as much forward and backward compatibility with and for all of our products new and old. It is our customers we care about new and old!
Why do you think we have this forum.