Impress Me With Your Knowledge of Cars

Matthew

interesting your friend would now be looking for 'class' having lived with a bluebird for so long. His frugality should help him avoid class and concentrate purely on reliability and reasonable running costs. It was interesting to read the passionate accounts of Alfa ownership - these writers seem to have missed that it is likely the purchaser intends keeping the next car for many, many years...

If all else fails, check out what the minicab drivers are using (and talk with them about it). Ok, Steve's skoda 'mares excepted. One may not end up with the most exciting car on the roads or the carpark - yet there's likely some excitement to be gained in something that always starts and stops, and doesn't cost loads while it does so. Can anyone say "vectra", "mondeo", "primera"?

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

Mondeo!

Very effective rear end crash proofing but the seat belt pretensioners are a bit fierce.

P

Steve was driving a new-style Mondeo 2.0 TDI Ghia tonight on a 51 plate (2001.) Very nice too!

The Skoda is still poorly. It turns out that the block hasn't warped but the head gasket has definitely gone.

Fingers crossed, it'll be fixed by next weekend when there are no spare cars available.



Regards,

Steve.

Tut.

There is only one car that beats all of your suggestions which will be reliable for the next ten years and is stupendous value for money second-hand from a private buyer. It is better built than a Mercedes C-Class and a VW Golf (made in Africa?). It is...

VW Bora. Choose the torquey 2.0 litre manual for its great town and motorway ability. A 2-year old with 15k miles should be about £7-8k private. At £10k, a V5 engine version should be available.

I (regrettably) just sold my 4 year old with 27k miles for piddling £6k. Nothing ever went wrong, was as solid as a rock, and drove better than Golfs. Oh, and they are pretty handsome cars IMHO.

Forget your Hondas, Fords and Toyotas, this class act will run on and on and moreover will FEEL like it will run on and on.

Rana

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I would normally advise people to buy a Honda or Mazda if they want something reliable

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Toyotas are generally considered the most reliable make, especially the main-stream models like the Corolla. This is backed up by publicly available statistics (out of the US) which track the average number of times a particular car goes to the workshop in its first 3 years. Toyota has the lowest score, followed by Honda. Nissan/Mazda are close behind.

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I reckon that Honda make the best engines in the world for pretty much everything (Motorbikes, Cars, Lawnmowers, Generators, Boats etc.)with the exception of F1 cars.

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Well, it's been said Honda is more an engine company than a car maker... The S2000 engine is a technical tour-de-force, although it's day-to-day practicality is arguable.

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A basic 1.6 Focus ranks as the best-handling FWD road-car I have ever driven

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Me too -- chassis dynamics, suspension setup and steering feel are excellent. Too bad it's let down by a mediocre engine (this was the 2.0 Zetec). In this price range (or slightly higher), I believe the Peuogeot 206 (2.0L) has a better package of handling/engine performance.

Cheers,
Tze-Ho

The 1.6 Focus has better handling than the 2.0Litre - mainly due to the lighter engine. I don't rate the 206 as a particularly good handling car (The 205/309/306 were much better)

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I don't rate the 206 as a particularly good handling car (The 205/309/306 were much better)

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I've heard lots of people rave about the 205/306 but have never had the pleasure of driving one before. The 206 I test-drove was the CC variant, so having the top down could have had an effect on my impression of its handling abilities

What about the 307? I wanted to test-drive it when I was shopping for my car but the dealer didn't have the 2.0L version, so never got to drive it.

I find that a properly setup RWD is still more satisfying to drive, but I suspect handling is really a moot point for the vast majority of drivers who drive conservatively and never even come close to the limit of the car's handling capabilities.

Cheers,
Tze-Ho

[This message was edited by tze96 on Wed 21 April 2004 at 4:48.]

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One to consider but as of yet un-mentioned is the Lexus Is200

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Great chassis, suspension setup and handling, but 4-speed auto tranny can't compete in this segment (both the 3-series and C-class are already on 5-speed autos for a while). Toyota-level of reliability a big plus, but the tail-lights are kinda "chinatown hot-rod" looking.

The 6-speed manual is a fine tranny, but that's not for everyone.

If only Lexus updates the auto tranny...

"I suspect handling is really a moot point for the vast majority of drivers who drive conservatively and never even come close to the limit of the car's handling capabilities."

Yep, you're right there. It always amuses me that the BMW owners talk about their cars' superior RWD handling, but most only ever drive fast in a straight line on the Motorway.

Personaly I think the biggest problem BMW drivers have is some desperate need to prove something. Its never the big BMW's of any of the M types, not its the guys who invested in a 3 series. Buying into the whole ultimate driving machine ethos they try to exert their authority on the road, driving like half wits. Almost everytime I have overtaken a 3 Series, either on the Motorway, Dual Carriage, in fact any out of town road, they end up spending at least five minutes tailgating me flashing their lights and then pulling off some insane testosterone fueled overtaking manouvere. Not having any inadequacyey issues I am quite happy to slow down as they attemept auto hare kire, but what prfoundly upsets me is that immediateley after said manouvere they settle back down to what ever speed they were at when I orginaly overtook them, restarting the cycle.

in the past I have pulled of the road at services, pulled into the inside lane and crawled alon, anything to get away from these suicidal looneys.

I actually like BMW's, I think they are among the best engineered machines on the road. But I wouldn't be seen dead in a 3 series!

For reference purposes I drive a lightly tuned Alfa 156 V6, what it lacks in refinement and purity it make up for in soul.

Help Bunnys everywhere!!!!!

No Seriously, everywhere!!!!!!!

"Personaly I think the biggest problem BMW drivers have is some desperate need to prove something"

I have owned several "low status" cars; Skoda Rapid Coupe, MCC Smart, a Vauxhall Nova that I bought for £70. In ever case, whenever I overtook a BMW, the owner would do absolutely everything in his power to re-pass me. The best laugh I had was when I overtook a 320 on the M8 (in my Smart car), he flew past me onto a roundabout and promptly spun into a fence.
I swear that these guys think that their d**k shrinks when they are overtaken.

I agree that BMW make some of the best cars, unfortunately they seem to attract some of the worst owners.

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I actually like BMW's, I think they are among the best engineered machines on the road. But I wouldn't be seen dead in a 3 series!

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The 3-series (especially 325 and above) is a sublime machine. Only problem is, as Car (UK) puts it, every guy and his dog has one. So naturally you get all sorts of wannabes driving one.

The V6 156 is a fun car, can't beat the note of the V6 at 6000rpm... But it's ultimately still FWD -- if only Alfa makes RWD cars again. Even VW is planning a RWD cabriolet.

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I suspect many British people, like me, have little experience with RWD cars. As far as I can remember I've only ever driven two, one of which was a Ford Sierra in the late eighties. The Sierra's steering was horribly slow and lacking in feel

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Well, not just the British but most drivers, since the majority of cars on the road these days are FWD (due to efficiency of the packaging). But RWD is just a part of the setup that determines a car's handling. You can have a RWD platform like the previous generation Ford Falcon (in Australia) that comes nowhere close to a properly setup FWD car like the Honda Accord Euro or Mazda 6.

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I suspect they benefit from good handling and a good sense of rhythm, whether they are aware of it or not.

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Oh yes, I agree absolutely. Better handling cars are inherently safer, being more progressive and thus predictable, whether you drive at the limit or not. Not sure what you mean by rhythm, though...

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The traditional Honda approach seems to be to maximise roadholding rather than handling (although the latest Accords are supposed to have been designed to handle well).

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Roadholding is mainly a function of how good (i.e. sticky) the tyres are. Take a modest car like the Honda Civic, swap the stock tyres with something like Michelin Pilot Sports and you have a car with very good roadholding.

Actually, Honda designs since the 80's have been pretty driver-oriented (among the Japanese makers) in terms of handling -- they pride themselves as the BMW among Japanese car makers.

I wonder if a quick survey is in order, seeing how many active system owners also own BMW's, there is sureley a parity between being lectured constantly about the control and power they enjoy over users of more humble NAIM systems and the behaviour of BMW drivers.

It is odd how I characterise people on the road by their car's.

BMW - "Behaviour already discussed"

Mercedes - Drives in the outside lan with no regard for other drivers, wishes he was allowed a real car like a Porsche.

People Carriers - Unable to use mirror due to having the kitchen sink in the back, unable to look forward as they are trying to stop the kids from killing each other.

French Cars - Drive where they want when they want, their cars are cheap to repair so they don't care if they hit anything.

Volvos/Saab - Try to offset driving the safest car in the world by driving like lunatics.

Porsche - Nothing to prove, as Saatchi & Saatchi once said "Porsche, you'll never get laid in one, you'll allways get laid with on"

Ferrari - Nothing to prove Wishes his car would work every day - Beware if beautiful young lady is in the passenger seat as driver may try to acheive orbital velocity in order to impress/get laid.

Lamborghini - Nothing to prove escept may have an excess of chest hair and a gold medalion

TVR - See Ferrari, Prrof that too much power can be a bad thing.

Lotus - Lots of Trouble Usually Serious - Still looking for that perfect corner to justify using a circuit car on the road.

Fiat - Cheap as chips, might even make it their destination (I had a Fiat Uno once, loved it until the brake pads fell out of the brakes on the M5.

Audi - Aspires to be as much of a d8&K as a BMW

Aston Martin - Royalty on Wheels (Whose your daddy)

Bentley - Pull over quick as this guy can run of the road without a care as he can buy your family if he needs to.

Japanese Cars - Who cares, engineered to perfection (Where is the soul).

I've got to stop as the sweeping generalisations are actually starting to offend me and I am I've completely lost my thread and the conclusion I was aiming for, never mind eh.

Help Bunnys everywhere!!!!!

No Seriously, everywhere!!!!!!!

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Originally posted by tze96:
Not sure what you mean by rhythm, though...

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I was comparing handling in cars to rhythm in hi-fi - sorry for any confusion.

Potiriadis, having had exclusively Alfas and FIATs in the household since before I learnt to drive, it was a great relief when my parents got their Accord and I found that hardly anyone wanted to race anymore - not even BMWs.

[People race against FIATs presumably because they think it's beneath their dignity to be passed by one, and Alfas because they're Alfas].

In fact I seem to have unconsciously assumed that the behaviour you describe - idiots accelerating as you pass then passing you and slowing down - had fallen out of favour, simply because it didn't happen to me anymore.

[This message was edited by JeremyD on Wed 21 April 2004 at 20:12.]

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I was comparing handling in cars to rhythm in hi-fi

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Ah... in that case I reckon Alfas have great rhythm. It's so easy to let the speedometer creep up in one... My wife has the 147 Selespeed and it's a great drive.

Tze-Ho

J.D. Power and Associates and What Car? report:
Lexus and Skoda Ranked First and Second in
UK Car Customer Satisfaction Index

Alfa languishing at the bottom.....

Here's a link to the table
JD Power Rankings

Brian OReilly

I think that you will find that the kind of people who have the time and inclination to respond to these surveys are by nature toyota corrola or nissan almera drivers, this means that they don't undersatnd the cars they drive, they base their purchase on things like warranty and depreciation and judge satisfaction by economy and running costs. Yes Alfa dealers are terrible. Alfa are in the process of "re-enfranchising" their U.K. dealer network, so hopfully some imprivement to come. You don't buy an Alfa for statistical and empirical reasons, logic and sense are calmly bypassed by emotion and lust. Alfas are for driving, I consider them to be the equivalent of a NAIT, a start on the ladder towards driving purity, with a Porsche Carrera GT representing a DBL/NAP 500 x 3/SNAXO Supecap/CDS3 etc. You don't by NAIM for anyempirical reason, you buy NAIM because of the intangibles of the ssytem making you want to listen to more music, you buy and Alfa because it makes you want to drive more.

I think there is a point there, if anyone has too much time on their hands, how about comparing NAIM AMPs to Cars (Igonre CD players lets just takl horsepower and music power).

Help Bunnys everywhere!!!!!

No Seriously, everywhere!!!!!!!

Potiriadis wrote:

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Japanese Cars - Who cares, engineered to perfection (Where is the soul).

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Well, I'm no sure how to put this to you. Cars are machines and machines does not have a soul. Only living things can have that. Sorry, but that's how it is. All cars ar soulless.

JohanR

I have a question for you JohanR from Sweden. Have you ever sat in the drivers seat of a car, put the key in the ignition, heard the starter motor engage the cylinders, felt each of the cylinders catch their first breath of oxygen and petrol the engine igniting into life. Felt the hairs on the back of your kneck stand up as the engine settles to growling idle. Have you ever blipped the throttle just to hear the exhaust note soar through the octaves. Have you ever talked to your car, or do you just use it as a means to get from A to B? If you only see a car as trasnport then you will never have a synergy with it. Cars are not machines, they are cars. Think of them as a horse, in order to get the best out of a horse you have to bond with it, learn it, and love it. Horses have a soul and a spirit, or are you talking in a religous sense of soul, a worshipiing of false idols senese?

Help Bunnys everywhere!!!!!

No Seriously, everywhere!!!!!!!

I beleive that is "boning" with a car rather than bonding!

Note that the car was a Fench Car - Drive where they want when they want, their cars are cheap to repair so they don't care if they hit on by anything :-)

Help Bunnys everywhere!!!!!

No Seriously, everywhere!!!!!!!

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Yes Alfa dealers are terrible. Alfa are in the process of "re-enfranchising" their U.K. dealer network, so hopfully some imprivement to come. You don't buy an Alfa for statistical and empirical reasons, logic and sense are calmly bypassed by emotion and lust. Alfas are for driving, I consider them to be the equivalent of a NAIT,

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err, quite. I am quite sure there was never a purchase made of a Nait where it was expected there would be only half of the product remaining after a few years; for this reason it doesn't matter how bad Alfa dealers are perceived, their trick is up-front in-built obscelecence second to none - no need to worry about "out of warranty" disputes.

It is interesting to observe that in a market where so few miles are actually driven, so many cars bought each year, or consigned to the scrapheap before the end of their useful lives, (and so many claim that rear wheel drive instantly consigns one arse-first into a hedge - 10 points for the FWD marketeers there!) - so many cars are purchased on grounds of "oh I can't buy one of those, all [insert marque here] are driven by tossers" or "oh they're great but the dealers are terrible", or even "oh the dealers are terrible - but I bought one anyway", or the clincher - "I bought it and love it but am considering pushing it off a cliff as top gear said it was dreadful".

You're all mad! A nissan almera is a valid choice, regardless of whether or not the owner "connects" with the spirit of the macine. As is a lambo. Right, where's the keys for the david brown.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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Have you ever sat in the drivers seat of a car, put the key in the ignition, heard the starter motor engage the cylinders, felt each of the cylinders catch their first breath of oxygen and petrol the engine igniting into life. Felt the hairs on the back of your kneck stand up as the engine settles to growling idle. Have you ever blipped the throttle just to hear the exhaust note soar through the octaves.

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Yes.

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Have you ever talked to your car, or do you just use it as a means to get from A to B?

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That's two questions in one. No, I can't remember ever talking to a car. I have two cars, the main purpose with both of them is to drive just for the fun of it. This weekend I made a trip to a road in western Sweden that recently had been awarded "The most fun to drive road in Sweden" by a motoring program. When I was there I did an extra tour into Norway to check out how the roads where there. It happens that I drive just to get to a place, but thats not the reason why i have my cars.

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Cars are not machines, they are cars.

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If that's how you like it...

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Think of them as a horse, in order to get the best out of a horse you have to bond with it, learn it, and love it.

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I have been kicked by a horse once and don't like to go near them.

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Horses have a soul and a spirit

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Yes, they are living creatures.

JohanR