What type of bike

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
The Paramount looks quite modern.

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I think classic or retro's the word.

You fellas are some touchy lil' knobbers (mtb enthusiasts). Specialized and Kona indeed have made a handful of decent high end rigs.

Matthew mentioned a classic Stumpjumper (remember Ned Overend?). My favorite classics were Ibis frames but the corporate focus on pot and beer killed them. Fat City was also the nuts (which is why I now like Independent Fabrication). I'm all about the chro-mo rear stiffy bikes.

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My Raleigh Special Products titanium road bike is the best bike I've ever ridden

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I`ve toyed with the idea of a titanium frame,...nearly bought one a couple of years back, though always had cold feet........how does riding one compare to a steel (531) frame?

laurie S

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Originally posted by Ludwig:
My favorite classics were Ibis frames but the corporate focus on pot and beer killed them.

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One of the riders in my group has an Ibis. It's a nice bike but it's difficult to get decent suspension forks in the 1" fitting. He runs Pace's but gets quite a few problems with them.

The same chap also has a titanium Litespeed road bike and another in the group has a couple of titanium mountain bikes.

"remember Ned Overend?"

Indeed -- I imagine he's still racing somewhere.

My cable channel has been running a series on the History of the Kamikaze at Mammoth, CA these last few weeks so I have been enjoying a retro bike fest. It's bizarre to watch early Downwhill races where the likes of John Tomac and Jimmy Deaton would takle the Kamikaze (60mph on loose rock strewn surfaces with adverse cambers and 100ft cliffs) with skinny steel hardtails with short-travel forks. Basically they rode downhill on XC bikes with the only modification being a 60T chainring Tomac even had one of those solid rear wheels to decrease drag.

I've actually ridden at Mammoth -- though not the Kamikaze. Well worth a visit.

You can indulge all your MTB nostalgia at MTB Hall of Fame

Matthew

Some great names from the past on that site Matthew- thanks for that. I did some downhill riding until I snapped my clavical like a toothpick.

Steve, those Ibis' have some top notch brazing and details don't they (the famous "handjob" cable guide!)? My dream was always to have a burnt orange Hakkalugi 'cross frame. Litespeed does some good ti work (for a lot of major brands too IIRC).

Yeti- another great name. Their team was wicked too.

Here's some vintage video from one of the Hall of Famers and early pioneers. Check out channel 8. I like the Steve Miller music in the backround.

Gary Fisher - 1977

[This message was edited by John Gilleran on Mon 22 March 2004 at 21:06.]

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Originally posted by Ludwig:
Steve, those Ibis' have some top notch brazing and details don't they (the famous "handjob" cable guide!)?

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It's certainly a lovely bike although this particular bike is so awash with Chris King, XTR, Hope, Middleburn, carbon and Ti that it's hard to pick out particular details!

I commuted to work by bike for the first time this year today, and the first time ever on a proper road bike instead of a mountain bike:



Despite taking this pretty easy this morning I was still 5 minutes faster than my quickest time on a be-slicked, rigid mountain bike (40 minutes for 9 undulating back-road miles with a couple of minutes waiting on traffic lights).

What I also noticed is that I didn't use the drops anywhere on the route so for purely commuting use a flat-barred bike would perhaps have been better, although I do like the combined shift/brake levers.

"What I also noticed is that I didn't use the drops anywhere on the route so for purely commuting use a flat-barred bike would perhaps have been better"

I'm no expert, but to me it looks like the frame is too small for you. Shouldn't the seat be about level with the handlebars for maximum comfort?

I was reading this about fitting:

http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/bikes_framesize.html

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Originally posted by John Gilleran:

I'm no expert, but to me it looks like the frame is too small for you. Shouldn't the seat be about level with the handlebars for maximum comfort?

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That picture was probably taken before I'd finished setting the bike up so I'm not sure it still has that much seatpost showing.

It's a compact frame in a medium size and the next size up was definitely too big for me.

The Rivendell sizing info is a bit dubious if you ask me -- not only does it say "Fitting and sizing are not sciences" when clearly they are but, and I don't care what anyone says, I am not buying a bike with a standover height such that "your genitals may rest on the top tube".

With regard to the relative height of the handlerbars this seems to be a conclusion that comes from his insistence on comfort as the only criterea for frame sizing. I know little about Roadies but suspect they will cite efficiency and power transfer as other major factors which may well result in a higher saddle. MTB riders genrally prefer smaller frames for manouverability and often want their weight slightly forward for a variety of reasons depending on one's style of riding.

Also their suggested technique only really applies to their bikes as monufacturers often measure frame size differently so measuring your inside leg and subtracting n cm is not generally applicable.

Matthew

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
The Rivendell sizing info is a bit dubious if you ask me -- not only does it say "Fitting and sizing are not sciences" when clearly they are but, and I don't care what anyone says, I am not buying a bike with a standover height such that "your genitals may rest on the top tube"."
Matthew

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My road bike of 17 years fits like that and was always comfortable on 30 mile plus rides. I'm not sure a proper road bike as Steve posted a picture of would have a seat higher than the handlebars, especially for a long ride where comfort is important. For racing or MTB that might be a different story. Here's a picture of my old Nishiki which to me is more of a classic road bike, more similar to the Rivendale.

John

Cripes. With a bike like that John then I would say either your legs are too bent -- which will not only be inefficient but also risk damaging your knees -- or you will do yourself a mischief on that toptube sooner rather than later.

Matthew

John,

You have no seat tube showing at all which would normally say to me your frame is too big for you if the saddle height is adjusted correctly.

Unless your BB were so low that there was virtually no difference in height between standing on the pedals to set the seat height and standing on the ground to check standover clearance -- in which case presumably you would risk your pedals hitting the road when cornering.

A typical road bike should look something like the pic below in terms of seat height IMHO and a quick eyeball check of bikes parked near my office when I went to get my cofee just now confirms this to be how most people choose to do it:



Still if it fits you and is comfortable then its obviously ok but I not convinced its generally applicable.

Matthew

[EDIT: you seem to have deleted the post to which I replied]

Matthew

Something for you to consider regarding road bike fitting. Historically, you will find that bicycle racers of the 50', 60's, and early 70's rode larger frames than is the norm today. Handle bars were also higher, tending to be, at least, level with the front of the seat.

A growing interest and awareness of aerodynamic factors witin the professional bicycling community lead to the style of setup illustrated in the picture you posted. I think it's important to realize that this is a sizing and setup method that may make sense for the top professional racers, but is not necessarily perfect for the average rider. Even a few extra pounds around the middle will not be pleasant. For most riders, a lower seat with higher bars will take pressure of the hands, arms, and neck and make for a more enjoyable ride. While this might not be a concern of most of you, as you grow older and as your muscle groups start to soften, as is inevitable, the more agressive setup can also have an impact on other important lifestyle committments!

By the way, agree with Alex. That is a great looking bike.

Clay

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:

A typical road bike should look something like the pic below

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The relationship between saddle and bar height is about the same as on my bike but I have more seatpost showing because my bike has a compact frame.

Alex -- That's a Colnago 50th Anniversary Edition and (guessing) probably costs about £6k.

Which is ridiculous when you think that it will almost certainly break the first time you bunny hop one of Comrade Ken's speed humps.

Clay -- I understand the issues of comfort but I still think John's picture that shows a bike with too big a frame for it's rider.

Matthew

I would suggest that the most comfortable position(avoiding putting strain on the back) is when you are sitting upright.

This may not be areodynamic but at at you will not suffer back ache.

This is why I am avoiding Mountain Bikes and racers.

Also I have no wish to crush my sweets on the cross bars.

Regards

Mick

Top tube Mick -- nobody says "crossbar" anymore and doing so will mark you down as out of touch with The Kids.

Matthew

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Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
John,

You have no seat tube showing at all which would normally say to me your frame is too big for you if the saddle height is adjusted correctly.

A typical road bike should look something like the pic below in terms of seat height IMHO and a quick eyeball check of bikes parked near my office when I went to get my cofee just now confirms this to be how most people choose to do it:

Still if it fits you and is comfortable then its obviously ok but I not convinced its generally applicable.

Matthew

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I can assure you my saddle is adjusted correctly. I think my setup of the seat to handlebar height is more like the Rivendale bike shown here from their website, though it seems my toptube comes up higher. There's about an inch between the toptube and my pelvic bone when I stand over the bike barefoot. One thing I should mention is that the tires on my bike are 630mm the one's on the Rivendale are 700mm which might account for more seatpost showing on the Rivendale.



[This message was edited by John Gilleran on Tue 23 March 2004 at 17:38.]

I notice from your photograpghs that three things are missing from your bikes.

1. No prop stands which means that you have to lean your bike against walls etc. Why not have a stand on your bike.

2. Small bag buckled to the rear of your saddle. This is where you keep your puncture kit.

3. No hand pump. This combined with the above is taking a risk in the event of a puncture.

Regards

Mick

"Why not have a stand on your bike"

Becuase a) 9/10 you have to lean it against an immovable object in order to lock it up and b) you've just spent an extra £100 on a frame that is 1/2lb lighter so you probably don't want to attach a hunk of uneccessary metal to it.

"Small bag buckled to the rear of your saddle. This is where you keep your puncture kit"

John's bike has one. I don't on mine as I almost always have some kind of bag with me.

"No hand pump. This combined with the above is taking a risk in the event of a puncture"

Modern mini-pumps are much smaller than traditiional pumps since they inflate the tyre on the push and the pull so can be half the size for (roughly) the same efficiency. They usually have a simple bracket to attach to the frame but are usually so small as to fit in your bag anyway.

BTW For punctures either get some self-repairing tubes or else carry a spare tube rather than a puncture kit and just switch tubes rather than fixting it at the side of the road.

Matthew

This standover height stuff is a bit overblown. I always consider theoretical top tube length as my primary concern if I'm not buying a custom frame.

Still, a (sport) touring bike like a Rivendell will generally be sized bigger than say a full-on Serotta racing bike. Racers sacrifice a lot of comfort for responsiveness. Unless you're a poseur there's no reason to fit your road bike used for recreational/fitness riding in the same manner as Lance Armstrong.

John G- That's an interesting frame. Are those hand cut lugs?