What type of bike
Posted by: Mick P on 15 March 2004
Chaps
I am only a couple of weeks away from retirement and as such will need a mode of transport. I am trying to avoid buying a second car and would like to buy a bike to do relatively short journeys of say up to 5 or 6 miles. Mainly as an aid to returning my body to its previous Greek God proportions.
I will be going to the gym between 8.00am and 10.00am most weekday mornings and a bike would be a good way of getting there.
Swindon has a good cycle path infrstructure and I have no interest in cyling up mountains or mud tracks. It there is no tarmac, I shall not go, so to speak.
So what sort of machine should I be looking at and is it better to buy from a national chain such as Halfords, a local chap or via the net.
Many thanks
Lycra clad Mick
Posted on: 23 March 2004 by Mekon
Since I swapped my 19" top-tubed Slammer for a dirt bike, I can't even do them on the flat. Not that I regret it, that Dyno was only fit for dwarfs and Finnish freaks.
The guy I got it off won a vert world championship on one. Free sticker to anyone can name him.
Posted on: 23 March 2004 by John G.
This is a picture of my newer bike and if you compare the height of the seat and handlebars to their position on my road bike on page 5 of this thread you will see that they are about the same height.
Posted on: 23 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
I (if I didn't live in London) am probably half way between the two with the Blur -- which is pretty much my ideal bike:
Along with the Rocky Mountian Edge and Orange Sub-5.
One of the riders in my group has a Blur and another has a Sub-5. They're both nice bikes but I prefer my Epic. None of the group has an Edge but there is one ETS-X30 - it's a nice bike but, like all Rocky Mountains, rather underspecced for the price.
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by matthewr
Blur vs Epic is an interesting comparison as they both claim roughly the same thing (hardtail handling with FS performance). I'd have thought both would have been viewed with suspicion by Jockos as the further North one goes and the mud, rain and grit increases people seem less and less keen on complicated multi-pivot designs and more in favour of single-pivots like the Heckler/Superlight and derivatives.
"it's a nice bike but, like all Rocky Mountains, rather underspecced for the price"
Like all high end boutique bikes the cost is in the the frames which are lovingly hand built by craftsmen / manufactured using inefficient old fashioned techniques depending on your point of view.
As for speccing in general -- something of a pet hate -- the vast majority of upgrading is a complete and utter waste of money in my experience where you gain no functional advantage other than an irrelevent weight saving or some extra durability that turns out to be irrelevant. You choose a bike based 80% based on the frame and 15% based on the fork and 4% based on the wheels. I'd be quite happy for my chosen frame to come with a solid basic groupset like Deore (or LX in my day) and basic quality finishing kit like stems, bars, seatposts, etc. People who turn up each weekend with a new bit of shiny XTR or Raceface exotica on thier bikes always seem more keen on the male jewelrey side than anything to me.
Oddly, going back to something you said earlier, the one component where there are real funtional differences and its worth spending the dosh are brakes and you are the first person I have ever met who has chosen to have cable discs rather than hydraulics. The latter are *much* better functionally (more power, zero fade, better "feel", etc) and the setup and maintenance is minimal. It's very hard to argue against Hope when it comes to disks.
Matthew
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
Blur vs Epic is an interesting comparison as they both claim roughly the same thing (hardtail handling with FS performance). I'd have thought both would have been viewed with suspicion by Jockos as the further North one goes and the mud, rain and grit increases people seem less and less keen on complicated multi-pivot designs and more in favour of single-pivots like the Heckler/Superlight and derivatives.
Superlights are too fragile (I know of several broken ones) and Hecklers are too heavy for anyone as unfit as me.
quote:
"it's a nice bike but, like all Rocky Mountains, rather underspecced for the price"
Like all high end boutique bikes the cost is in the the frames which are lovingly hand built by craftsmen / manufactured using inefficient old fashioned techniques depending on your point of view.
One the chaps in my group has two Rocky Mountains - an ETS-X30 and a hardtail (not sure which but it has Easton ultralite tubing) - and his only gripe was with the spec. I think only the frame remains from the original spec on his hardtail and he replaced bits on his ETS-X30 as soon as he got it. He probably didn't need to but there was a lot of Deore considering it's a £2K bike.
quote:
As for speccing in general -- something of a pet hate -- the vast majority of upgrading is a complete and utter waste of money in my experience where you gain no functional advantage other than an irrelevent weight saving or some extra durability that turns out to be irrelevant.
Maybe, but here are the things I've replaced on my Epic since I got it:
wheels - now Hope XC/X317, originally non-disk
brakes - Avid cable instead of Avid V
forks - 100mm Fox Float 100RLC instead of 80mm Skarebs (although the Floats are currently on my Inbred)
chainset - LX instead of Specialized's own
I needed a chainset for the Inbred but it got the Epic's old one and the new shiny black & gold one was fitted to my main bike.
In terms of weight saving my Epic is perhaps 1/2lb heavier now than it was as new, however all the changes brought about definite improvements.
quote:
Oddly, going back to something you said earlier, the one component where there are real funtional differences and its worth spending the dosh are brakes and you are the first person I have ever met who has chosen to have cable discs rather than hydraulics. The latter are *much* better functionally (more power, zero fade, better "feel", etc) and the setup and maintenance is minimal. It's very hard to argue against Hope when it comes to disks.
Have you tried the Avid mechanical disk brakes? Quite a few people regard them as good (if not better) than hydro brakes and, having tried various hydro setups (Hope Mini & Mono-Mini, Deore, Magura Louise) I'm quite happy to stick with the mechanicals.
They are
less likely to fade than hydros (no fluids to boil), have more than enough power and plenty of modulation control with the correct levers (I use Avid SD5's on one bike and XT STi units on another) and cables (XTR or Avid Flak Jackets). Everyone I know with Hope brakes finds them a pain in the arse to bleed and they always seem to squeal as well.
The guy with the Rocky Mountain bikes also had to finish a Glentress ride with no brakes at all after both his Mini's packed up after a minor fire road crash.
I hate bleeding brakes (I have 4 motorbikes with hydro brakes) and so far I've been very happy with the Avids as they are very, very easy to fit, require very little maintenance (or in the case of my bikes so far - none at all), don't squeal and are very powerful in wet or dry conditions.
I'm back earlier than expected from a trip to Birmingham so I think I'll get changed and take the Inbred out for a spin up in the Pentlands!
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by matthewr
"Superlights are too fragile (I know of several broken ones) and Hecklers are too heavy for anyone as unfit as me"
All the Superlight people I know are skinny types who never jump off things. ISTR they were even not recommended for people over a certain weight. Hecklers aren't that heavy -- sure you are not thinking of a Bullit?
Personally I'm not convinced that the difference between (say) 24lb and 28lb really makes that much difference but I rather assumed you were getting quite a bit fitter with all this riding.
"he replaced bits on his ETS-X30 as soon as he got it"
At face value that's pretty dumb as he could have bought an ETS-X50 or X70 if wanted that bike with a higher spec.
"He probably didn't need to but there was a lot of Deore considering it's a £2K bike"
Like I said it's £2k 'cos it's got a high-end handbuilt frame -- if he wanted a £2k bike with lots of XT he should have bought a Specialized.
"Maybe, but here are the things I've replaced on my Epic since I got it:"
Adding disks, a longer travel fork and so on are all good upgrades. My gripe is with things like XTR and Chris King headsets which offer essentially unchanged functionality for lots of extra dosh.
"Have you tried the Avid mechanical disk brakes?"
Not recently. My mate had a pair of cable disks -- which may well have been Avids -- a few years ago and moaned about them until he got some Hope C4s. He is 18 stone though and something of a nutter so he did have some serious braking issues.
I thought the boiling fluid and/or fade thing related to open and closed systems and was a choice dictated by whether you were a downhill or XC type?
But I guess I may well be out of touvh on all this as my knowledge of disks is at least 2 years out of date.
Matthew
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by Bruce Woodhouse
I have Hope Mini brakes on my C'Dale Scalpel (another slant on the hardtail-that-thinks-it-is-a-suspension idea) and cannot say that they have ever been a pain, or indeed squealy. I'm not sure that brake fade is due to fluids boiling either-is it not a function of the pad material rather than the fluid? Perhaps Matthew will straighten that one out.
Glad you are enjoying your Epic. Has it been reliable? My usual cycling mate has had one for a while now and not been especially happy with his. Enjoy the ride.
Bruce
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Robinson:
All the Superlight people I know are skinny types who never jump off things. ISTR they were even not recommended for people over a certain weight. Hecklers aren't that heavy -- sure you are not thinking of a Bullit?
Quite possibly - I'm not sure I've seen either in the flesh.
quote:
Personally I'm not convinced that the difference between (say) 24lb and 28lb really makes that much difference but I rather assumed you were getting quite a bit fitter with all this riding.
Of my bikes the Epic in current trim is 29lb, the Inbred 28lb and my XC hardtail about 23-24lb. The Epic is the heaviest but it's also the best climber and less tiring to ride generall.
I'm definitely a good bit fitter than I was but I've still a long way to go. Since recovering from a cold 3 weeks ago I've done 13 outings on the mountain bike (including a Glentress trip) and commuted once on my road bike and I can feel my fitness picking up again.
quote:
"he replaced bits on his ETS-X30 as soon as he got it"
At face value that's pretty dumb as he could have bought an ETS-X50 or X70 if wanted that bike with a higher spec.
It's not quite as dumb as it sounds as he got the ETS-X30 as an ex-demo bike for about half the list price! The shop did try to locate a 50 or a 70 for him but were unable to find one at the right price.
quote:
"He probably didn't need to but there was a lot of Deore considering it's a £2K bike"
Like I said it's £2k 'cos it's got a high-end handbuilt frame -- if he wanted a £2k bike with lots of XT he should have bought a Specialized.
Specialized are too mainstream for him. Unfortunately he's too tall to test ride my Epic otherwise he might have been my 3rd victim (two of my riding group have borrowed my bike and both have since bought Epics).
quote:
"Maybe, but here are the things I've replaced on my Epic since I got it:"
Adding disks, a longer travel fork and so on are all good upgrades. My gripe is with things like XTR and Chris King headsets which offer essentially unchanged functionality for lots of extra dosh.
It's not just about functionality though as people do get pride of ownership from bikes kitted out with those bits. They also claim that they last longer and require less maintenance.
I've quite a few XTR cables (they're excellent, especially for cable disc brakes) and 2 XTR rear mechs, both bought 2nd hand for less than the price of a new XT mech. One is still taking up shelf space, the other is on my Inbred. It's certainly slick changing but it's too early to say if it's noticeably better than the XT one currently on the Inbred.
quote:
"Have you tried the Avid mechanical disk brakes?"
Not recently. My mate had a pair of cable disks -- which may well have been Avids -- a few years ago and moaned about them until he got some Hope C4s. He is 18 stone though and something of a nutter so he did have some serious braking issues.
He'll be the sort of person 6-pot calipers were made for then!
quote:
I thought the boiling fluid and/or fade thing related to open and closed systems and was a choice dictated by whether you were a downhill or XC type?
I don't know but I think you'd have to be going some to boil the fluid or fade any decent modern disc brake setup - cable or hydro. I'm certainly not likely to do it.
BTW here's a couple of pics taken on my local trails earlier this evening:
It was a very pleasant run out and nice to see the trails in daylight for once (I do most of my MTB riding at night at present). I did have one unfortunate incident that left me mid-calf deep in water when exploring new route options though! I hope my shoes are dry by the morning...
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
I have Hope Mini brakes on my C'Dale Scalpel (another slant on the hardtail-that-thinks-it-is-a-suspension idea)
One of my friends was looking at a Scalpel 2000 recently as a bouncy addition to his fleet (his main bike is a F3000SL). I think he decided it was too similar to his hardtail though and last I heard he was looking at a Santa Cruz Superlight.
quote:
and cannot say that they have ever been a pain, or indeed squealy. I'm not sure that brake fade is due to fluids boiling either-is it not a function of the pad material rather than the fluid? Perhaps Matthew will straighten that one out.
All the riders in my group with Hope brakes (which is about half of them, the next biggest group being those with Avid cable discs like mine) seem to like them but most of their brakes squeal like a hog in wet conditions!
quote:
Glad you are enjoying your Epic. Has it been reliable? My usual cycling mate has had one for a while now and not been especially happy with his.
I've had no problems of any kind with my Epic so far, and the couple of others I know that also have them have also found them reliable. One bike did come with a faulty set of forks (Fox Float 80RLT's no less) which failed about 1 minute into the bikes first Glentress trip, but the warranty folks sorted it out quickly and also send some goodies as compensation for the ruined trip.
The same chap also replaced the wheels with Hope/Mavic UST compatible wheels but he's had a lot of bother with UST tyres so far and has put me off tubeless for now.
Are you getting out much on the Scalpel these days?
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by ErikL
Steve,
The trail in the second pic looks yummy for a 'cross bike!
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Ludwig:
The trail in the second pic looks yummy for a 'cross bike!
Is the first one too bumpy?
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by ErikL
No, the second just looks faster. Truth is you could take a 1973 touring bike with cross tires through either.
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Ludwig:
No, the second just looks faster. Truth is you could take a 1973 touring bike with cross tires through either.
The 1st track is quite rooty, bumpy and boggy in places. It is easy though and I have in fact done some of those sections on a road bike in summer, and not with any "jey-boy" cross tyres on either...
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by Tim Jones
'£6k is strictly for Roadie weirdos who obsess about resting pulse rates and lung capacities and so on.'
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by matthewr
That was meant to be ironic Tim.
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by Bruce Woodhouse
Steve
The Scalpel is still slicing through the manure with regularity, having a really good winter for rides actually. The poor weather means my road bike is sitting in the garage unused. I am also going up to Glentress sometime after Easter which will be my first trip there. I may tap you for some advice nearer the time. I want to make a weekend of it so will be looking for some local accomodation.
I can see why someone with a decent hardtail would want a squishier bike than the Scalpel for a suspension option but it is my only MTB so covers most bases for me. My mate also had a fork problem on his Epic, then had a new BB and a respray for faulty paintwork within 6 weeks of purchase.
Bruce
Posted on: 24 March 2004 by Steve G
quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
Steve
The Scalpel is still slicing through the manure with regularity, having a really good winter for rides actually. The poor weather means my road bike is sitting in the garage unused. I am also going up to Glentress sometime after Easter which will be my first trip there. I may tap you for some advice nearer the time.
Cool. Let me know when you're there and we might be able to hook up. Just bear in mind that I'm sloooooow......
quote:
I want to make a weekend of it so will be looking for some local accomodation.
Lots of people have given good reports about the
Glentress Hotel which is right beside the entrance to the forest.
quote:
I can see why someone with a decent hardtail would want a squishier bike than the Scalpel for a suspension option but it is my only MTB so covers most bases for me.
This chap was considering changing his F3000SL frame for a Scalpel one, which might be an option for him if he decides to stick with one bike.
quote:
My mate also had a fork problem on his Epic, then had a new BB and a respray for faulty paintwork within 6 weeks of purchase.
A couple of the forks fitted have had problems (although the problems don't relate particularily to the Epic). The arch on the Skarebs can break and there have been some seal problems with Fox Floats. I haven't heard of another paintwork problems though. The BB's fitted are usually Shimano splined ones, either ES-30's or ES-50's. Mine originally had a Deore-level ES-30 one but I replaced it recently with an LX ES-50. The Deore one is still going strong on my Inbred through.
Posted on: 25 March 2004 by Bruce Woodhouse
Thanks for that Steve.
Getting the diary out this weekend. My wife is going away to do something girly and I intend to spend a weekend covered in mud and bruises.
Bruce
Posted on: 25 March 2004 by Tim Jones
Posted on: 25 March 2004 by Steve G
Posted on: 25 March 2004 by John G.
quote:
Originally posted by Steve G:
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Jones:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2004/tech/probikes/navigators_colnago/Nav_Zajicek_C50_04
Very pretty but it doesn't look like it has much mud clearance and John isn't going to be happy with the bar/saddle relationship!
I guess I'm just a 70's to late 80's kind of guy. ;-) Looking at the road bikes offered from Trek, Klein, Lemond they all show this kind of saddle to handlebar height.
Do you guys think this bike would be more comfortable for rides over 10 miles?
Posted on: 25 March 2004 by matthewr
Having the seat a little higher just makes it easier to get into a more areodynamic position (which Roadies like) and gets your weight further forward and more evenly distributed between front and back wheels -- which is good for MTBers for reasons of traction and making it easier to shift ones weight about which is a key aspect of riding off-road.
10 years ago MTBers used to favor their seats a lot higher and with longer top tubes as they were mainly interested in XC racing and efficiency. Since "freeridng" has become the thing top tubes (and/or stems) are shorter and seats lower which creates riding position that is more comfortable and allows more techincal riding and at the expense of some efficiency.
Overall though I don't think a couple of inches would makes that much difference to comfort -- you might get some lower back strain at first but you;d soon get used ot it.
You do see some people with saddles so high that their arse is higher than their shoulders which is obviously very uncomfortable and a bit silly and I think it is these sorts to which the Rivendell sizing instructions refered.
Matthew
Posted on: 25 March 2004 by Tim Jones
My road position isn't quite as extreme as that C50. Saddle is about 9cm higher than bars. When I got back into road riding I did get nasty lower back pain but got used to it as you say.
Roadies who like climbing (R Millar, Pantani, and, er, me) tend to have the saddle set well back relative to the BB and slightly lower than breakaway or time trial merchants. Helps with power going uphill.
But I don't understand the point of an MTBer worrying about the aerodynamicism of their riding position. Those tyres might be a better place to reduce rolling resistance
Tim
Posted on: 25 March 2004 by John G.
quote:
Originally posted by Tim Jones:
But I don't understand the point of an MTBer worrying about the aerodynamicism of their riding position. Those tyres might be a better place to reduce rolling resistance
Tim
Is there a mullet analogy somewhere in this cyling talk?
What about the Genesis Geometry, does this make sense?
http://www.fisherbikes.com/fisher101/Posted on: 25 March 2004 by ErikL
John G, since you already bought the bike don't worry about frame geometry, worry about fit (I assume your dealer put you on the right size frame). If your dealer did all of this for you when you bought the hybrid, then ignore this standard advice:
Make sure there's a slight bend in your knee when you're at the bottom of the pedal stroke, make sure your knee is directly over the pedal axle when at 3 o'clock in the pedal stroke (drop a plumb line from knee cap so it bisects the axle), make sure your handlebars are about as wide as your shoulders, and maintain a slight bend in your elbows. Play with the seatpost height, saddle fore-aft, and stem height until you're dialed in. Adjust the brake and shift levers so they're in line with a straightened wrist/forearm. Adjust the saddle fore-aft tilt to your liking. Adjust your shoes' cleats' angle so shoe-on-pedal matches your feet's natural tendencies (i.e., straight, pigeon-toed, duck waddler). Adjust, ride, and repeat until you like the comfort-efficiency balance. It might take hours, days, or weeks, but don't worry about it. Make all adjustments when wearing riding clothes and shoes.
(Other things I vaguely remember are: 1) when in riding position, glance down and your handlebar and front hub should be in line; and 2) something about nudging your elbow against the nose of your saddle and the tips of your fingers should tickle the stem, or handlebar, or I forget that one...)
[This message was edited by Ludwig on Fri 26 March 2004 at 4:47.]
