Naim demo a problem...

Because the 'run in' myth is infact a load of bullshit.

No one can honestly come here and say they heard the difference between say 2 days operated and 6 months operated, how can they possibly remember something so subjective?

What mood were they in?

Was the volume preciesly the same?

Was it the same music?

Etc Etc Etc.

The long and short is the circuit board needs to warm up. In my expereince this takes around an hour to and hour and a half.

The only thing that does require a good warm up is speakers. And only if they are new, this lets te speaker lossen slightly.

I STRONGLY I mean STRONGLY disagree. I personally have heard major changes with both the 202/200 and now 282/250. If I hadnt heard it myself I wouldn't have beleive how big they could be. For openers the 250 was just barely ok out of the box, but after a day or so showed improvement, then about 2 weeks into it another improvement. After I had the 202/200 for 4weeks a big change came.....yes same room, music, volume etc....even Naim says around 5 weeks for run in....I have heard it beleive me.

Garyi,
I think you are going to have a hell of a lot of objections to this post.Personally I think all equipment including cables need a burn in period.But we are all intitled to our own opinions

Sorry gary you are off your trolley on this one.

garyi,
I think you've lost your marbles somewhere on the upgrade path or elswhere. If there is anything in the whole cannon of "hifi" that needs run it, it certainly is a cartridge. Besides, there really is not a person on this forum that is going to convince me that my cd5i doesn't run in. I have been through the process twice, and the difference is simply too overwhelming to ignore. I think it is time for you to ditch your standard kit and pick up a pair those little plastic whatchamacallits. No, not headphones, but hearing aids.

................and let's add fuel to the fire by reminding everyone that the Fraim even requires a setting in and re-tightening period.

And it's not even electrical !

Bring it on boys.

Tell me how long does a DVD player take to burn in?

What about your kettle?

What this comes down to is justification of purchase.

You have just spent a shed load of money. You get your new toy home, you are feeling the buyers regret.

It takes about 6 weeks for this to wear off.

Tell me any one taken measurments of the differences?

Why does burning in always lead to a better sound?

Bullshit. Time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Let me give you an example. No doubt any one of you will have spouted this off at some point.

Day One.

Sounded brittle, harsh. No bass (actually you heard a CD sounding really good, not over blown or bass heavy as with most cheap HIFI)

Day Six.

Still harsh but bass comming into play now (You ears have got used to hearing music well balanced, now with the re-adjustment your brain picks up nice clean bass lines)

Month One.

Its still a bit up and down (Some nights I am pissed, some nights I am not)

Month Six

Improvements still noted (You are talking bullshit in order to appear more experienced and knowledagble to a bunch of hifi forum geeks such as myself)

Also ben you hit the nail right on the head.

If what people say is to be believed naim stuff sounds dire for anything less than 6 months burn in, yet they still manage to sell it.

Um, smell that coffee.

I dont take notes or chart things I just listen like I normally do, actually nobody told me about the differences I might hear,nor was I expecting any real ones let alone major ones. When I heard them thats when I found this forum and I knew I wasnt alone, others shared their experiences and most feel 5-8 weeks for full run in. I have tube equipment that doesnt do this....Chris the National sales manager of NANA said upto 6 months...so all I know is what I hear, thats why I am waiting till I feel it is all there to post further thoughts on my goiing from a Naim Nait thru the ranks to a cdx2/xps2/282/250/ninkas so if you havent tried the gear then thou not know where he speak, Ben r

I used to wonder how you could assess Naim equipment if it took so long to warm up, until after a few years with the same equipment I started on the upgrade path. My opinion is somewhere in the middle of the 2 extremes. I think you'll get a good idea of whether equipment is a worthwhile upgrade if not immediately, then within a few hours, with most of the rest coming over the next few days, possibly a week or two.
Used equipment should only need to warm up for a day or two to be up to speed.
Speakers will take the longest because they need to physically loosen up.
What I don't get is these kind of ridiculous, set-in-stone predictions along the lines of 'It will be poor initially, then after 32 hours it will sound good, then on day 3 it will take a dip, then at 6 days it will be great, followed by 16 1/2 hours of poor sound blah blah blah until after 6 months 3 days and 17 hours it will be fully warmed up. Many people here would be thinking it was about time for an upgrade just as their equipment was starting to work properly!
There are other variables to peoples assessment and perception of the performance of their system other than warmup alone which don't seem to be taken into account.

Really, if it took as long as some people claim for Naim gear to come on song they'd never sell anything, as all demos would sound crap

Cheers
Ade

Just seen Garyi has posted similar whilst I was typing!

[This message was edited by Ade Archer on Fri 09 April 2004 at 23:26.]

[This message was edited by Ade Archer on Fri 09 April 2004 at 23:31.]

Gary

You may be more right than wrong. I'm relatively new to Naim but I heard what I liked about the pieces I own right out of the box. I do think I hear things even out over the first three or four days to a week. If they change much after that, it's more subtle than I can easily hear. The ups and downs over weeks and months I have trouble accepting. That's my opinion. I could be wrong.

Clay

Sounds like it's time for an experiment.
Perhaps the Riders or some other organized gang of Naim-O-Philes could conduct this.
Pick someone's system. Have everyone over for several short listening sessions.
Alternate randomly between having the kit on and warm (at least 2 weeks) and just turned on moments before they arrive having been off for a week (if the host can stand it off that long!).
Perform this several times.
Have everyone secretly write their opinon, limit the responses to "was it warm or cold". Keep the results secret until several repetitions have been performed.
Report the results on this forum no matter the outcome.

I feel that my kit sounds better warm but I can't subscribe to the notion of "burn in" for cables. There is no rational science behind it that I've seen. And no testing, objective or otherwise, that I've read or heard about.
I also have my doubts that kit really needs to burn in, but I won't debate that it sounds better warm. I think I hear it come on song after a few minutes.
Just because some sales rep tells you it's so doesn't make it truth.
There is so much subjective stuff going on during the listening experience that it's all but impossible to sort out.
If you think your cables and kit sound better after a burn-in period, then good for you. You get a time-varying, gradual upgrade for "free" over the life of the kit. I can't or won't try to take that from you. I just wish my kit would get better over time like a good Whiskey or Wine... I just end up replacing it with more expensive kit!
David

i am totally with garyi on this one.

it's all about justifying the huge cost of your (or my) hifi to yourself (or myself).

the comment about hifi forum geeks was definitely on the money.

are we banned?

hello Gary with an i, why do so many people make comments about the sound well into weeks etc....are we all just hearing things ??, I have owned quite a bit of equipment in my day, some great some not so great,some sound very good right out of the box too...I have heard very expensive cables that do nothing, I have heard a$20.00 cartridge(Grado) sound quite good. One thing I have learned is there are no rules and you just simply listen...in your own environment is obviously the best...which is why when I write on the forum, everything I hear is in my own home...at my own pace...and I will buy certain items just to try them....they either sound better(or much better etc) about the same or worse...it is that simple..

Naimdropper. I agree that some sort of test would be in order.

How though could you possibly control it, even loosely?

Say I came round to yours one day. It all sounds great however we didn't know I had slight cold, my ears weren't on full form. Next time I am fully fit, and it sounds better?

What then?

Also what if the volume control was just slightly louder?

What if I had a hang over?

Its all important stuff mate, no amount of 'testing' will sort this out.

What if only half the amount of electric in your street is being used compared to last time?

To me after an hour or so the system sounds as good as it will in a few weeks time. Sure it sounds better sometimes, if I have had a good day at work, if its Friday and not Monday etc etc, if I have had a drink etc etc

i think the problem here is that there is too much discussion. i seem to recall reading a thread where someone suggested that wearing a copper bracelet made things sound better.

so, some people recommend moving the speaker cable off the floor, others like ring mats, some people like to lingo, others would rather chew their ears off than use one, some like to talk about how far apart the power supply should be from the cat... and so it goes on.

don't really know what my point is, but if someone works it out please let me know.

Garyi;

I am very surprised, along with many others at your take on this matter, and remember you stating similar views in the past.

Are you talking about new or s/h stuff?

I found on several occasions that my well run-in CDS2 took the best part of a fortnight to reach its full potential after being powered down.

I'm sure you are stating what you hear, and it serves to prove that we clearly 'hear' differently from one another.

But to answer Ben's original question; new Naim kit is generally pretty impressive 'out of the box'.

What follows is icing on the cake.

Garyi, to your comment about"burn in always leads to a better sound"...it doesn't, thats a big part of what i am saying...the gear goes up, then sideways,then sometimes south...then blooms...and then settles in...that is what I am hearing so far, but others have said and heard similar things....there are no specs on this, it just is....who knew ??

Excellent point, Garyi. I was hoping to take a bit of the "noise" out of the experiment by having several people and several runs of the experiement... But that approach is flawed in many ways.
Absolutely. Volume, music, power conditions, health conditions, moods, etc. etc. will affect how you hear and how you're emotionally impacted by the sound and music.
How about this: J.N. states that his CDS2 took a fortnight to reach it's potential. I have no reason to doubt that, I don't own one of those fine pieces and have not done the experiment. If he or some other curious mind were to make a cassette recording or even a CDR recording of a cold Naim CD player and then again after a fortnight, using the same piece of music and volume levels, we might have some evidence of this change. Of course, the rest of the kit, including the recording device, must be kept on for a fortnight before to allow it to stabilize.
Not picking you out of the crowd or anything J.N., but you're a good candidate for this experiment!!!
David

Garyi.

Examining this topic from another vantage point.

Can you prove that the equipment doesn't "burn in" and get better over a given period of time.

tw

err,

i've found that things sound a bit dodgy if the rig has been powered down for anthing more than a couple of hours. the contacts in the system, i.e. dins, iecs and mains degrade over time, measured in days rather than weeks. To the point that a complete unplug replug, plus a shot of Demagic. Will get you a significant shot of performance. Difficult to come up with an analogy, but let's try like when you've discovered the tires on the Car are under inflated and you pump 'em up and all feels 'right' again.

Peter

User34 at Laposte dot net

My car got better gas mileage over time (run in) + the water in my new kettle doesn’t taste so much like plastic and gets better the more I use it (burn in). I’m guessing products do need to be run in to be at their best – including Naim stuff.

I've found (particularly with new power amps) a sort of a constant in that they sound at their worst 24 to 48 hours from switch-on.

Very enjoyable, with plenty of PRAT fresh out of the box, if slightly raw. 24 hours later, the sound has filled out in the bottom end but gone fat and thus slowed up the rhythmic drive.

About three days is needed to bring some control and 'lean-out' the bottom end again.

The soundstage then gradually opens-up and frees-up over a period of weeks.

I reckon my new 252/SC took INXS of two months to deliver its full potential.

Freaky/tweaky but true.

So; to come back to Ben's original question again - I guess a three day home trial can be confusing?

I have a simple repeatable test for you. Nothing to do with round earth measurements.

My Naim amp becomes more enjoyable the longer it is left on. Fact.

It is <always> enjoyable after a few days of continuous connection. It <never> gets worse after that.

When warm, I keep feeling I have to feed it continuously with new software because it is so enjoyable to listen to. I will tend to sit in the hot seat and listen attentively. I will often listen to material I don't normally enjoy or would not choose to listen to. I spend time in CD shops and collect large handfulls of (free loan) CDs from the local libraries to play. I will even attempt to listen to scratchy worn out records on my LP12!

From cold I feel no such compulsion and would rather just surf on my computer with background music playing. I will often forget to put any music on at all. The system still sounds very enjoyable but holds no power of attention over me. Despite the system being on for many hours each day, 7 days a week, it is simply switched off at night. Now there are no untidy piles of CDs jostling for room for their turn in the CD player.The LP12 goes back on top of the wardrobe and I don't visit the CD stores hungry to find new material.

'Nuff said?

Nime

Everyone has the right to be wrong.