Naim demo a problem...

To own expensive things is to be part of an exclusive club. A bit like Bently Owners, or Mac owners

However with it brings an exclusivity which transends sensibilities.

J.N. States that his CD player took two weeks to burn in. From that I am supposed to believe that JN can remember exactly how it sounded on day one to how it sounds 14 days later. 14 Days of sleep, work, drink, food, viruses, bugs, really loud trains, that twats car alarm that went off, getting a pay rise or being made redundent, etc etc.

It can't be quanitfied. Further more what scietific info do we have to support that a peice of HIFI (Only hifi mind it dosn't appear to corraspond to computers, TVs etc) needs weeks, and in the case of some people here months to come on song?

It comes down to pride of ownership and being in an exclusive group, its not enough that our expensive naim kit cost so much. No no we need to justify our purchase to our selves and others, our first line of defense "its burning in". Its therefore special, different to the competition, Exclusive.

I fully stand by my comment. When I plugged my 250 in for the first time it sounded crap. After about half an hour of playing some music I could hear the bass develop, presumably because the circuits were warming up. No doubt if I wound the thing up to 2.00 oclock it would have been warmer quicker.

After this, well I was to busy listening to music and accepting the fact that in general the differences I hear come down to perception and nothing more than the mood I am in. It sounded supurb last night I had some Ed Rush and Optical blasting out, I was beered up.

This morning it dosn't sound as good, I have a hang over, I am playing Joni Mitchel and the volume is down. Should I Now come here and tell you my kit is still warming up?

On ben's "starter for ten"

I find that shop demos are useless for establishing what something will sound like in your own home and when you live with it over time.
What I have heard in shop demos, which is purely a guide, is something "different" between two pieces of Naim kit. At other times the guy demoing the equipment has desperately tried to explain what I should hear different which I can't.

For example I wanted to buy a Naim CDP and demoed a CD5 with & without HiCap. I heard little difference between the CD5 with & without HiCap. I heard a difference I liked between the CDX2 and the CD5 options which was enough that I bought the CDX2. I did'nt listen to the XPS2 effect because of lack of funds for more.

From experience, with a strong elemment of luck, if I have heard a difference however small that I like in the shop demo, I have bought and been delighted by the true sound heard at home, living with my purchase, which has invariably been much more than heard in the shop demo

Now onto the rest of it:

I hear music, I get pleasure from it.I hear it differently dependent on so many factors that I cannot separate component "warm up" or "burn in" from other factors. Such as being nackered after a day at work, the music I pick at random to listen to, whether the washing machine and next door's electric grass mower are running or not. The effect of 2.00am listening with the lights down, wine and clean power, because sane people are in bed.

This is day to day, so when a piece of new kit is plugged in and I hear something happening on top of this variability for the first couple of weeks, maybe that is "burn in" maybe it is not. It is strange though that it is reported time and time again. In fact newcomers often write in panic because they think something is broken on there brand new 250 when the sound goes "south" a couple of days after being first used and sounding great.

Are we implying group autosuggestion by telepathy here, or is this a genuine repeatable condition?

Well whatever is going on I don't bloody care!!
I'm up for enjoying the music, whatever it sounds like day to day.

regards
GEOFF

I believe there is a lot of substance in the common perception that system performance changes during its initial 'burn-in' period.

I suspect from my (albeit limited) knowledge of electronic components, this happens because the operating characteristics of components change with time and that change is more rapid during the first part of their useful working life.

Once they have settled down and stabilised, system performance flattens out, until further into its life, serious component degradation starts to make itself heard. This is typically when servicing such as re-capping is needed.

There is no doubt that electronic equipment works most predictably and at its best when it's running at a stable and consistent temperature. Catastrophic component failures more commonly occur during the initial burn-in period, or subsequently when switching on from cold.

It's therefore not surprising that if you turn-off your CDP or pre-amp for 2 days, it will sound slightly different from the way you normally hear it until its fully warmed up again. This period should not be anything like as long though as the initial 'burn-in' phase.

Just my two-pennorth!

David

I feel that I am very objective when listening to equipment. I don't fall pray to the " it is expensive it has to sound better" thing. I have heard some amps that cost 3 times what I have that I did not like any better etc...but if a manufacturer says x number of days or weeks for warm up that is what i amgoing to do. Then I can make an honest evaluation and not say oh i didn't do it right...hey I remember way back when people thought turntables made no difference and it was all the cartridge. Or it was all the speaker and get lots of watts....well we have learned better haven't we. So the notion of Naim equipment changing during the first few weeks to me is plausible,especially when I have heard it...it wasnt that long ago people thought the earth was flat....is it?

Taken from my CD player manual first printed Oct 1999:

quote:

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Your Naim Audio equipment will take a considerable time to "warm up" before it can perform at it's best. This period varies, but under some conditions you will find that performance continues to improve for as much as five days. A better and more consistent performance is achieved when hi-fi equipment is left switched on for long periods

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Taken from the CD player manual May 2001:

quote:

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Your Naim equipment will take a considerable time to run in before it performs at its best. The duration varies, but under some conditions you will find that the sound continues to improve for as much as five weeks. Better and more consistent performance will be achieved if the system is left switched on for long periods. It is worth remembering however that all electronic equipment can be damaged by lightning. Please read the warnings section.

---

What happened in between to extend this period by so much. Both these manuals cover the CDS2 and CDX and all the other manuals have been similarly amended. At some point around 2000/01 Naim changed the warm up period from "up to 5 days" to "up to 5 weeks".

Was this because Naim considered that it actually took longer after all, or because they were fed up with people on day 6 contacting them because their system didn't sound as good as they thought it should?

Ade

quote:

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Originally posted by garyi:
Also ben you hit the nail right on the head.

If what people say is to be believed naim stuff sounds dire for anything less than 6 months burn in, yet they still manage to sell it.

Um, smell that coffee.

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Garyi

You make me laugh... I do beleive that the time that requires is about few days to stablize the capacitors (for it to reach around 95 - 100 percent their storage capacity) and to make sure there is no electrical failure in the system (we used to call it the acid test). That is all we need. I agree with you on this issue.

quote:

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Originally posted by PR:
Ade

The latter I'd suspect.

I thought Naim auditioned and run each piece of kit for 24 hours?

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I am not sure about this. They may just test it for few minutes and package it. I want Naim confirm this QA (Quality Assurance) step.

Yes, I suspect it's the latter too. How anyone can say there was a large leap in performance at, for example six weeks, is beyond me. It is even claimed that there are these very specific highs and lows of performance over several weeks when someone installs a new length of T&E.
In fact, that reminds me. I must get under the floorboards and rip out all the 10mm T&E cabling to my system and turn it round to test if it's directional.
Mmmm, now where's my anorak?

Cheers
Ade

RE activity in the factory - when we went on the factory tour in 2001 (the Forum BBQ) we saw the equipment under power as it went through a 24 hour power on test.

I also understand that the kit is also listened to prior to shipment. The listeners being very experienced in understanding how the equipment sound matures and they know how a "virgin" machine should sound and can extrapolate the initial sound to the finasl sound, as well as how a mature machine will sound.

Derek

<< >>

another thought, I have a fair amount of other equipment. When I noticed these changes i played the other gear to see if they had changed. they didnt/. so like i said i can only tell you what i hear.

Folks, without a recording of "before" and "after" warm-up we are ALL under the heady power of suggestion. No proof of any kind, only someone's impression that it got better/worse.
Anybody EVER say that a piece of Naim kit got WORSE after it warmed up? Why not? If it can drift "good" why can't it drift "bad"? I'm not talking about a component failing or degrading over the long haul. Along the lines of what Tristram said...
I'm not calling anyone a liar here, but the power of suggestion from Naim or any other manufacture is strong. Someone may have "heard" it and perpetuated the story. Though the analogy is not correct, it makes some sort of sense if you compare the electronics to a mechanical system with lubricants and coolants etc. And designing any system for steady state is almost always easier than designing for the transient conditions of turn-on and "finding" the correct bias levels, etc. All of this happens VERY quickly, within the first few seconds of turn-on. In other words, steady state happens quickly.
What about playing your amp loud? Does it warm up then? Mine certainly does. What about the sound then? Is it "better" at room temp steady state or after I've had a loud session? What about after a loud musical passage? What happens to the softer stuff? This won't affect a CD player or preamp to the degree it affects a power amp, so now the system is out of balance...
Yes, big electrolytic caps physically change as they are powered on for the first time and over the next couple of hours but they don't "spring back" to their initial state as far as I know. This is called "forming" the cap and has been known for years in the industry.
It is in Naim's interest to suggest that "If you like it now, wait until you've owned it for a couple of weeks -- it will be MUCH better!" And I believe them in that I'll grow to love the new sound of my precious black box.
I won't deny that I appreciate all kinds of things more after I live with them. Such is the nature of these special jewels we buy in black boxes. And other very expensive things like cars and such.
Somebody produce a recording of the same piece of music with kit that is at it's worst point in the warm-up cycle and then at it's best. Then play it on a system that's fully warmed up and capable. Make the recording available to the rest of us.
This would put to rest all these discussions, validate (or invalidate) what we've been told (and telling each other for many years). Then we can talk about the effects of Coriolus acceleration on moderate volume signals through NACA5 speaker cables that are supported off the floor by Oak chips vs. Walnut. Northern hemisphere vs. Southern vs. Equatorial regions.
Or we could just enjoy this incredible kit we own and play music. And continuously upgrade it!
And yes, I keep my kit powered up nearly continuously and probably won't change these habits no matter the outcome.
David

One other thought, when I heard one of the big differences it wasn't when I was settled in to listen or had a drink etc. It was in the am and I was getting ready for work, i played the system for about 25 minutes and shook my head saying this cant be but it was.

Perhaps it's us and not the equipment that changes from day to day?
I must confess that I just listen and enjoy.
I let my dealer look after the tweaky stuff, the other day he resoldered the speaker cable plugs with correct solder that he gets from Naim. My wife noticed a difference !!
So come on chaps lets just enjoy the music.

Cheers Robert

quote:

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Originally posted by NaimDropper:

Or we could just enjoy this incredible kit we own and play music. And continuously upgrade it!
David

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Why would we need to upgrade if we can't tell the difference reliably between kit that is cold or warm? Surely we can't be relied on to hear differences between one piece of kit and another?

Nime

Everyone has the right to be wrong.

I wonder Gary, with your senses being so subjective and all, how you ever assess the results of your cooking, or is that all bollocks too

You are right in as much as the difference over 6 months, but over hours, or even days it's possible.

The difference, in some cases, between cold kit and warm kit is the difference between the ability to hold a tune, or not. Having heard, for example, a forum members' 135's when they'd been off all day, the quality of the bass left a lot to be desired. It was uncontrolled to a surprising degree and improved considerably over the few hours we listened.

As for why it ultimately results in better sound, my money is on the fact that burn-in is the absence of change. It's effects can readily be reduced too, by minimising the changes that occur, through design.

Andy.

Garyi,
You know what you are saying make sense, and so do I.
Every point you have raised is correct.
I guess to simplify things,
Its Human Psychology, and each one of us is different. You also have a major factor called environment.
Guys we have to face the facts that Garyi, has just revealed some truth in your lifes.
He means no mallace, but in fact he is trying to help you,over come your denial.
Well done garyi.

From the Naim manual:

quote:

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2.2 running in
Your Naim equipment will take a considerable time to run-in before it performs at its best.
The duration varies, but under some conditions you will find that the sound continues to
improve for as much as five weeks. Better and more consistent performance will be
achieved if the system is left switched on for long periods. It is worth remembering
however that all electronic equipment can be damaged by lightning. Please read the
warnings section.

---

Phew, I didn't imagine it after all.

Steve B

Nime-
I didn't say that. I WANT to hear it. Make a recording cold then warm.
That topic would have more posts than "My Jaw Just Hit the Floor"!!!
I know what you're saying though. Wouldn't make much sense if we couldn't hear any difference between different boxes.
Swapping boxes has always resulted in an obvious difference for me. And I like to keep the old one around for the occasional swap back before it's sold... THAT helps justify the purchase.
David

quote:

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Originally posted by garyi:
It can't be quanitfied.

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You're right, Garyi: it cannot be quantified. Yet it happens, my ears tell me.

That's the problem with hi-fi: you cannot say everything in numbers or even so-called scientific approach. Based on specs alone, a mid-70's japanese amp or turntable were better than their Naim or Linn counterparts, and early CD players were putting my Planar 3 to shame. That is, listened, of course.

I remember a local consumer mag here in Québec who compared the audiophile-acclaimed Dual 505 with Technics and Pioneer 'tables; they measured everything, but did not listen. Their conclusion: "we don't know what the rave about the Dyual 505 is all about."

So, sorry, my ears tell me burn-in makes a huge difference. And I have learned to trust them.

Good Point ClaudeP, if we all went by numbers, a sony rack system should sound the best, numbers do nothing to tell the sound,neither does price. I learned long ago that a 5,000 amp does not automatically beat a 2,000 amp...it may but price has little to do with sound. In most cases it has to do with watts etc...all in all it has to do with one's own perception of value...in the case of naim when you climb the ladder only you can judge if the difference is worth the price...example...I have what I consider one of the all time bargains in a non naim preamp..the vtl 2.5 it lists for 2k with a very good phono section, I have used it with numerous amps and speakers with great results, I have listened to some more expensive preamps and I have preferred the 2.5, I listened to a less expensive tube preamp and the vtl was much better. The store that I got it from sells them like crackers because they believe in it and compare it to other things, I think all the employees have one too. So my point to all this ? a good naim dealer should have most if not all the electronics on display to hear and show the differences. Why should somebody buy a 282 over a 202 if they are not shown the difference in the store,same goes for a 202 over a 112 etc,,this way the equipment is warmed up all the time and you know why you made your purchase. My local dealer is just getting the 202/200 on display(they were mine), they never seen the equipment I have. It is pretty frustrating,over there do you have dealers who can actually show you why buy a cdx2 over a cd5, a252 over a 282 etc. Here we dont(not in my area anyway) In my opinion Naim really needs to rethink their marketing and distribution. If I owned the company(nice wish) I would walk into a dealer who carries it lightly and say we have a problem, we need you to be able to demo it all and do it right. If they were on board, fine, if not I would let them go. I would rather have no dealer than one that does it half baked,again if I owned the company. A big ramble here I know, but I read in many posts how people have ordered this preamp or that amp like they never saw it or heard it in a store,anybody actually been shown the differences in a store??

"It comes down to pride of ownership and being in an exclusive group, its not enough that our expensive naim kit cost so much. No no we need to justify our purchase to our selves and others, our first line of defense "its burning in". Its therefore special, different to the competition, Exclusive.

I fully stand by my comment. When I plugged my 250 in for the first time it sounded crap. After about half an hour of playing some music I could hear the bass develop, presumably because the circuits were warming up. No doubt if I wound the thing up to 2.00 oclock it would have been warmer quicker.

After this, well I was to busy listening to music and accepting the fact that in general the differences I hear come down to perception and nothing more than the mood I am in. It sounded supurb last night I had some Ed Rush and Optical blasting out, I was beered up."

Well Garyi,
your comments are not only amusing, they are inconsistent. For some reason you claim you can hear your 250 "warm up" but claim that run in is a myth. Well which one is it? Why exactly do you claim that speakers need breaking in and electronics do not? To dispel the myth I would at least like to see some form of argument from you. instead you persist with mere sophistry. It may be absurd to suggest that it takes five weeks for a component to break in, but is it absurd to suggest there is a difference between a b natural and b flat. Why is it that people can analyze intersubjective phenomena like music and come up with a consensus on whether a particular player hit an incorrect note but we are unable to tell whether a cd player has changed or is now run in? if we used your subjective principles we would endlessly be arguing whether grass is green or blue and there would be no definitive answer. Not all questions need definitive answers, but neither do they all need wholly subjective first person accounts either.

Garyi has said that warm up or break in is a myth. look at the quote above where he goes on to claim he heard his 250 warm up. But garyi, was it at the same volume? Were you positioned in the exact same space? Were you in the same mood you were a few minutes earlier? These are the same arguments you use to suggest to others that their ears are deceiving them.

I guess the difference between the rega planet and the cdx I heard was my mood. HMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

"Not all questions need definitive answers, but neither do they all need wholly subjective first person accounts either."
Agreed, Gavagai.
Interesting that the thread has gravitated to a CD vs. LP comparison rather than a warm vs. cold one.
The discussion is moot unless someone produces a recording that can demonstrate this run-in or burn-in.
Surely if something sounded "dire" upon power up and then "transcendent" after 6 weeks it would be obvious on even a cassette recording... I'd like to hear that!
David

Gavagi.

I don't pretend to be the last word on this subject.

However let me clarify some things for you.

Yes when you first plug in a bloddy great transformer such as a 250 there does appear to be a warming period. My argument from the top of this thread was around an hour. Not the weeks and even months some people here specify.

I also stated that speakers need to 'burn in' or more specifically the new drivers need to relax, ususally by playing them loud. This was certainly true of the SBL which really ame on song after a day of heavy volume. Thats just a simple mechanical process.

Your final point refers to the quality of a given product. In my expereinces the differences between CD players is at best subtle, especially ones in the same price brackets.

Opinions seem divided on this subject, my argument is and always has been that weeks or months for 'burn in' is in fact a load of crap and more to do with a person getting used to their purchase. Anyone that can state here that day one compared to day 100 was XYZ is talking crap, we do not have the capability of remembering such sophisticated information for so long and any number of things could have changed such as the volume control.

I am not being amusing, I am just not being a muppet and fanning the flames created by geeks wishing to be exclusive.

To get back to Ben's original question...

YES it is difficult for dealers that the kit "burns in". And not just Naim kit. Some dealers are very reluctant to sell their demo unit for just this reason - they get in run-in for demo purposes and then sell new, boxed samples that the buyer has to run in.

I had one dealer tell me that he could predict the next pair of speakers he would sell in a head-to-head dem as the pair that had been run-in the most.

And no, not all Naim kit it total shite right out of the box

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Garyi, if it is "a load of crap" about weeks of burn in why does Naim specifically put in the manual "up to 5 weeks" I wish it were bull, but I trust my ears and I have extensive experience with equipment, true some things I have heard very little difference over time. When i first hooked up my 250 I said "that aint happening" and it didnt sound better after an hour or even 5 hrs, it took about 2 days for an improvement.
Again when I first got into naim nobody said let it burn in for weeks or months, I didnt even see it in the manual at first, it is when I first heard changes I said what's going on, then I found this forum and started reading other peoples experiences. So I was not looking for anything, I just heard it,quite frankly I have heard more changes with naim,then with either speakers or cartridges,even my tube gear didnt do this. Ben r