Moving from tubes

The exposed Valve Amp, should you happen to trip and fall onto one, will cut, burn and electrocute you.....Nice!

Hi Wilbur,

I use ProAc 2.5 with great sucess (driven by a 250). ProAc's are rather demanding loudspeakers reg. power amps.

I would recommend to go for at least a second hand 250. New series amps are a bit more powerful but then you'd have to pay the full price!

Reto

I find Naim to be the least valve-like, sorry tube-like sound I know.
If you want solid-state valve sounds I would look elsewhere, like Sugden A21.

I agree with what others here say comparing Naim amps to valve, but I still have a valve amp(ELs4's PP) with a Naim CD player,cannot go over to Naim amplification(yet!)not smooth enough for me.Once tried Nait 3 in my set up the bass blew me away but was course in comparison(sorry Naimees).I find Naim Cd players to be superb with my amp.See pic in sistems 2004.Can you not cover valve amp with a safety cage ? or have it very high up(wall shelf)?

I'm not the only ex-tube owner who has opted to go down the Naim pathway. The similarities I find with my old tube gear are the presence of detail, naturalness and freedom from strain. With the naim gear I just listen listen listen.

With a baby coming into the house it is nice to have something that is simple, reliable and trouble free. Oh, and safe for a baby to be around. Not to mention bullet-proof/baby proof. (othe than the cd playes which, in retrospect, I think my kids could have easily mastered at an early age...)

There are many many many fine combinations of Naim gear and virtually all of them will deliver more satisfaction than the 92/90 you heard a while back. Depending on if you want new or used, either keep track of the recommendations here on the forum or seek out a dealer who is reliable.

Markus
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Hi Wilbur,

I moved from a Jadis Orchestra integrated tube amp to a Nait 5, and have been very happy with the Naim sound. Sure vocals are not as sweet as the Jadis, but overall it's a more enjoyable sound -- largely due to the improved overall coherence with much better timing and rhythm in the bass lines. The Nait makes the Jadis sound bloated and sluggish.

One thing you have to understand is the Naim sound is not your typical solid-state sound. If I haven't discovered Naim I'd probably have stuck with the Jadis -- the tube sound (traits Markus mentioned like naturalness, freedom from strain, etc) is hard to give up. But with the Nait, I don't feel like I'm really giving up anything. And it's great to be able to leave the amp on all the time, with no warm-up period required.

One way to go is to limit your initial investment and go for something like a pre-owned Nait 5, which provides a straightforward upgrade path. You can still hang on to your tube amp in the meantime.

My two cents,
Tze-Ho

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Originally posted by hicapman:
I find Naim Cd players to be superb with my amp.

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hicapman,

I second this. Also, Naim preamp was just the ticket for my SET amplifiers. The best combination that brought out the best from my system out of many other solid state and valve preamps I've tried 'em with. What a wonderful surprise.

Naim amps not smooth enough? Try a bigger amps from the new range. Nothing harsh about those.

Hi Wilbur,

I strongly recommend you make the effort to listen to a more recent Naim setup before doing anything. You'll kick yourself if you spend money and then decide it's not quite right. It all boils down to a matter of taste. I wouldn't rely on old impressions, invest in the trip to NY and check it out.

I've made this mistake and sometimes been lucky and sometimes not. When you're not, it's money down the drain.

I like some tube amps but certainly not all that I've heard. I've heard Naim sound brilliant and mediocre. Good tube systems and a well set up Naim system have similarities - a palpability and immediacy that push my buttons.

I have a Naim cdx2 with a SET tube amp and horn speakers and, after some initial problems with a slightly hard and thin sound, it now sounds marvelous and plays music superbly.

This has been mentioned many, many times but here goes anyway:-
Go listen for yourself before spending your hard-earned dollars.
A good, honest dealer is worth the money you pay him.

The dealer might even have some second hand Naim stuff.

Enjoy,
Deon

Hey Kuma,

Sorry to go off topic but could you tell me what Naim preamp are you using? What did the Naim do that the other preamps didn't do?

I'm using an pseudo-integrated SET amp - actually a SET power amp with stepped attenuator.

BTW, I sorted out the matching problems with my cdx2 and SET-lowthers. Thanks for your help.

Deon

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Originally posted by Rockingdoc:
I find Naim to be the least valve-like, sorry tube-like sound I know.
If you want solid-state valve sounds I would look elsewhere, like Sugden A21.

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Thanks for all of the input. This is the only opinion that I saw that significantly differed from the rest.

Could you elaborate on your statement as to how the Naim sound differs from the "tube sound"?

In the meantime, I'll have to figure out a time to fit a listening trip to NYC into my schedule.

In my limited experience with Naim the biggest difference between tubes and Naim is the soundstage. Tubes make the music much more dimensional, Naim flatter in comparison. They are both highly musical. I really like the atmosphere of the tube sound and it's hard for me to get away from that. But I also like the Naim sound for different reasons. It had great presence and drive. The Naim grabs and pulls me into the music, the tubes lure me in more seductively. Both good.

One more thing I found is that tubes are better at low volume than the Naim. This is another kid consideration for me as I won't be able to listen loud as much.

We'll have kids soon and that's partly why I'm trying out Naim, to simplify and put the hot tubes in storage for a while. I'm sure I'll miss them at first, but audio memories tend to fade.

quote:

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Originally posted by Deon:
I like some tube amps but certainly not all that I've heard. I've heard Naim sound brilliant and mediocre. Good tube systems and a well set up Naim system have similarities - a palpability and immediacy that push my buttons.

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Deon,

Ditto!
Not all tube amps sound like rolled off rosy-cozy syrupy mess. No point putting up with valve amp's pain-in-the-assness just for the soundstage.
A few SET I like actually sounds faster than many solid state amplifiers.

BTW, I'm using NAC 252 with Art Audio Jota monos.
What did it do that others didn't?

As you said, it added more immediacy and natural ease. It opened up dynamics ( both macro and micro ) further. It was uncanny how it made my system more *analogue* like. Other valve preamps I tried had the same sort of effect but had either they had higher noise floor or it let go the bass. ( typical valve shortcomings ) and other solid state preamps really didn't have much of profound effect as 252 did from what I was already using. Few solid state pres did better than my kps25s on certain things, but not enough improvements to put up with extra box and cable clutter.

Well, the 252 was the only exception that I don't mind having two additional boxes.
It seems to me, tho, its low-ish output impedance work well with my amps.


I'm glad CDX2 worked out in your system.
What was the culprit ?

[This message was edited by kuma on Thu 22 April 2004 at 2:35.]

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Originally posted by ghunter:
Ever hear a Krell system? Naim gear is far smoother than the average transistor system.

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I resent that.

Perfectly understandable Krell is automatically labeled as *bright* and analytical soudning as I have heard 'em sounding exactly that.

Conversely, I have heard Naim system unbearably bright and far from smooth, too.

As my kps25s came back all updated from the factory, last weekend, I was ABing between all Naim ( CDS3/NAC252/ ) and Krell ( kps25s) systems both driving my SET monos.

Both systems clear hi-fi foundamentals and neither systems show typical solid state pitfalls.

I can hear where each company puts their effort in.
Out of all American digital gear I have heard, Krell is still one of the few can entertain and engage albeit different way from Naim.

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Originally posted by kuma:

I'm glad CDX2 worked out in your system.
What was the culprit ?

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Hi Kuma, thanks for the feedback. Things that helped redress the thinness/hardness, in order of perceived improvement:

1) Van den hul the first interconnect instead of std Naim and all others I tried (somehow the very dark van den hul redressed the balance needed that my setup needed).

2) Neuance platform uder CDX2. CDX2 seems incredibly fussy about what it sits on.

2) Replace speaker cables that contained silver with copper-only ones.

3) Hutter shelves for entire system.

(Still want to try a dedicated spur but I'm renting.)

Deon

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1) Van den hul the first interconnect instead of std Naim and all others I tried (somehow the very dark van den hul redressed the balance needed that my setup needed).

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I've tried VDH, the ones with carbon fibre, in the past. Those, i'd imagin would be a better match than most silver cables. I never got on with silver cables. even the ones that are not bright. They don't have enough bass dynamcis for some reasons.

I take it you didn't care for Chord Cobra 2? They are pretty mellow up top than Chrysaris without slowing down the music too much.
Which speaker cables replaced your silver ones and are you using a stock power cord?

quote:

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2) Neuance platform uder CDX2. CDX2 seems incredibly fussy about what it sits on.

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Yep. Neuance shelf under CDX2 cured half of my problem, too. Altho, it was not about thinness on the top end. I wasn't getting enough midbass control and the whole system sounded sluggish in the middle. Neuance fixed the half of it. ( the other half had to come from adding on an XPS2, however )
I was so surprised, CDX2 reacted this drasitc to the shelf it sits on.

It seems to me that Naim gear is tweaky to get the best out of more so than other solid state gear.

I am not planing to *move* or fiddle around with the 'stack' anytime soon. ( don't want to ruin a good kharma )

[This message was edited by kuma on Fri 23 April 2004 at 1:51.]

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Originally posted by kuma:
I take it you didn't care for Chord Cobra 2? They are pretty mellow up top than Chrysaris without slowing down the music too much.
Which speaker cables replaced your silver ones and are you using a stock power cord?

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Kuma,

For the interconnect, I just tried my silver RCA one and the standard Naim-provided one. Err, I don't know what it's called. Neither worked well for some reason (perhaps to do with the possible brighter-than-usual balance of my horn speakers??)

For speaker cable, I'm using DIY stuff, be it silver plated or pure copper. With my current layout I need 11m so there no way I'm buying fancy cable!

Yea, I agree, the Neuance is surprisingly effective under the CDX2!

Deon

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Originally posted by Deon:
For speaker cable, I'm using DIY stuff, be it silver plated or pure copper. With my current layout I need 11m so there no way I'm buying fancy cable!

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Deon,

And your SET amp can deal with an extra load added by such a long cable?

I'm the other way around. i.e. longer ICs ( 5 meter ) with XLR ends to the amplifiers to reduce noise but short speaker cables.

Wilbur

For what it is worth. I went from an all tube old fisher x1000 integrated amp(60s) reconditioned to 55 watts per channel.

Before I was happy, I went to a cdsII/xps; 52/supercap and nap 300. Very happy at this level (aproximatel 20 K US dollars). If you have the money - you mentioned medical school and I assume that is over - you should look for a top flight Naim system and sit back and enjoy the music for years to come. In my opinion, with a new one in the house you will be home alot more and perhaps the little one should grove to the tunes as well. Sure would be a good background to good sound.

Terry in Bellingham, Wahsington
School Psychologist 30 years exp.

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Originally posted by terryborth:
If you have the money - you mentioned medical school and I assume that is over....

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Med school is over. Student loans, however, are with me for a good 7 years more, however.

And those are some heavy loans. Med school is the most expensive education possible because it is so hi tech heavy. Well, congrats on getting out and on your way. Why not cut some of your costs and find used gear and when you can afford it go to the reference series. There are 102s and 92Rs available. also I've seen CDXs for about $1800. Keep an eye on Audiogon if you're in the states; I don't know the British used gear sites except for PinkFish.

Life is analogue

Hello Wilbur,

I had a similar experience in that I had quad electrostatic speakers and I worried my son would electrocute himself since they are mains powered. So I bought cheap speakers [and he destroyed the tweeters by pressing on them] and then he got big/old and now I have the quad's back.

If you really love your valve setup don't sell it -- put it away and when your child is older you can use it again.

James H.

Wilbur,

One word of caution. It's unlikely that a proper setup would have had a 92/90 in front of a pair of 2.5s. It would be more likely to have been a bigger amp such as a 102/180 or above. This is much bigger money. Of course, God knows what the dealer was doing with that system and he may have just been testing the speakers or amp to see they worked, so the system could just have been cobbled together for test purposes, not musical ones. I'm just conscious that you're basing a potential purchase on something of which you're not completely sure.

As to the Naim/tube discussion, the Naim strengths of pace rhythm and timing (PR&T) are extremely enticing to most tube owners since tube-based systems often can't do PR&T. Sounds to me like you tuned into these strengths but that you're wishing for more of the tonality of the tube system. The nice thing about the new kit is that it has much better tonality, is better balanced and has far better resolution than the series you listened to all those years ago. Certainly worth a listen.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Frank's posting has particular resonance for me. I recently was introduced to Naim products when I acquired a CD5 in Feb. After several weeks, I was so intrigued by how great it made music and how it was the entry level CDP, that I started wondering how good it could sound with upgraded power supplies. My dealer wisely recommended that if I could afford a HiCap or better, that I would do better to trade for a CDX2. Well, the CDX2 made me wonder how it would sound with a XPS2; and to make a long story short, I am now awaiting delivery of a CDS3. Well, I was talking with my friendly dealer the other day about the common thread in this forum that there is a synergy within the Naim products, so I wondered if such a synergy could make yet another difference to my listening experience. I have been a dedicated tube devotee for the last several years, moving through ARC, Conrad Johnson, BAT, and finally to a VAC Avatar Super. (I converted to integrateds along the line to try to simplify my life) Well, my dealer sent me home with the unpreposing Nait 5i, which I plugged in last night. Even knowing that it is still not run in, I can see that I will be moving on to Naim amplification with hardly a look back. I may keep the VAC for use in the winter as the space heater function is quite nice. However, the PRaT that the Nait has injected into my listening experience is quite beguiling. You might think from the above that I like moving along the upgrade path, but I would really like to get off that merry-go-round and settle in to a final system. I hope to do that very soon, and the thought occurs to me that the Nait may very well take me there. Unless, of course, the 202/200 sounds significantly better.........