Ken Livingstone

I can't discuss that stupid twat without resorting to the dreaded "offensive language". He is a f****** w*****, perhaps some day medical science will find a solution.

EW

He was taken out of context once again, and as many people often are to sell rags to you guys, if he's guilty he'll be dragged before the courts and have the book thrown at him, this won't happen because he isn't and I don't püarticularly love the guy either for your information. Perhaps we should be concentrating on the P.M: apologising the the remaining Irish innocents and have the chapter closed for good, with him being sincere, and not because he was politically forced to, "Oh Yes he Was".

Fritz Von Our Ken Luvvly Geezer


P.S. The mail group was owned by Lord Beaverbrook in the thirties.

Livingstone was insulting the newspaper through the reporter. He'd assumed they were going to write their usual 'Tax payers money spent on Gays' polemic. His reference to concentration camp guards was regarding the treatment of gays (as well Jewish people and other miniorities) - not because the reporter was Jewish.

It was unfortunate, but I don't see that race has anything to do with it.

As usual, the rest of the media have rallied around their buddies to lambast Livingstone.

He's right not to apologise IMHO -

Regards

Stephen

Ken Livingstone suffers from not making his points very well in public. He was not insulting the victims of the Nazi camps, but stupidly made a reference to the reporter being like one of the Nazi guards. It was unfortunate. Amongst politicians, he is one of the good guys IMO. It would be tragic to lose him over this.

I've always admired Ken for being his own man and not following the New Labour party line. However on this occasion he does appear to have erred in the language he used to express himself. You only have to look at his track record to see that he isn't a racist. I hope he can extricate himself from this and that the forces of evil (Evening Standard/Daily Mail/the rest of the media/Tories - Maggie T) don't bring him down.

Andy

ps. Anyone who pissed off Margaret Thatcher so much that she dissolved the GLC to rid herself of him is OK by me.

You're having to explain his remarks away....

Livingstone, Berlusconi, a match made in heaven.

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
You're having to explain his remarks away....

Livingstone, Berlusconi, a match made in heaven.

Paul

I can't imagine any two people further apart of the political spectrum.

Can you explain what you mean?



Stephen

I wasn't explaining his remarks 'away'. I was trying to explain them to someone who, perhaps, has no history of the LES vendetta against Livingstone and who believes everything the (mostly right-wing) media print.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Bennett:
....I was trying to explain them to someone who, perhaps, has no history of the LES vendetta against Livingstone.

It only needs to be said that the Evening Standard is owned by the Daily Mail.

quote:

Originally posted by Rasher:
It only needs to be said that the Evening Standard is owned by the Daily Mail.

With respect Rasher, not strictly true, although IMO it's similar to the crassly insensitive justification Livingstone used to refuse to answer the reporter's question. The Standard is owned by Associated Newspapers which also owns the Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday. Having said that since Vernonica Wadley took over as editor the Standard tends to adopt a broadly similar editorial line to the Mail, much more so than her predecessor Max Hastings who was much more independent of mind.

Cheers,

JR

Not to forget of course that our Ken was himself a real journalist (in contrast to today's journo's) on afore-mentioned Evening Standard (I got it myself at the St every night) and under the stewardship also of afore-mentioned Max 'Hitler' Hastings, innit.


Fritz Von T'wer a good rag then wunnit

quote:

Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
[..]T'wer a good rag then wunnit

Yep.

I don't think Ken has any other choice but to apologise for his inappropriate use of language and move on. Bringing his spat with the LES out into the open may even do him some good in the end.

I've just heard our beloved Tony opine that Ken should apologise. He's probably more worried how this could affect him but it's good advice nonetheless.

Andy

quote:

I can't imagine any two people further apart of the political spectrum.

Both Berlusconi and Livingstone have invoked the concentration camp guard imagery at people they imagine to be persecuting them. Berlusconi rather less nastily. I think Berlusconi apologised.

Paul

I wonder whether he could end up as a scape goat should the bid for the Olympics fail.

Guys, can someone spell it out for me ?

He was being harrassed by a reporter from a paper which appears to have a long tradition of anti-semitiscm, the reporter informed KL that he was, in fact, Jewish, and KL accuses the guy of being no better than a concentration camp guard - ie just following orders. Very insulting for the reporter, but isn't that the point of an insult ? I can't see how it can be considered racist or to be trivializing the Holocaust.

Explain it for me? Is it that it is considered to be "below the belt" or what ?

BOR

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
Both Berlusconi and Livingstone have invoked the concentration camp guard imagery at people they imagine to be persecuting them. Berlusconi rather less nastily. I think Berlusconi apologised.

Paul

Ah, OK. I see.

I agree that the 'You're behaving like a Nazi' is a lazy statement to slip into an argument.

It's been used by Politicians, 'Pro Lifers', 'Pro Choicers', Animal rights people, People who test on animals, Greens, Tories, anti-road builders, builders - the list is almost endless.

However, I wouldn't exactly say that all these people are

quote:

a match made in heaven

I hope he doesn't apologise. If he does, I want an apology from everyone who ever uses or has used the analogy too!

Regards

Stephen

Brian,

An accusation of racism is IMO very serious but it often gets trivialised with over-use by those with an axe to grind who are often only too eager to play the race card. However I agree with you that I don't think Livingstone was being deliberately and intentionally racist towards Jews. IIRC from the recording of the exchanges between KL and Oliver Finegold, the reporter in question, Livingstone was railing against the overly right-wing agenda that so permeates the Daily Mail and I suppose that he felt that any other newspaper with even the remotest connection to the Mail must be equally guilty by association if nothing else. In fact I think he was oblivious to the reporter's religion until the reporter himself said what it was.

Cheers,

JR

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:
However I agree with you that I don't think Livingstone was being deliberately and intentionally racist towards Jews... In fact I think he was oblivious to the reporter's religion until the reporter himself said what it was.

I suspect that this is the truth of the matter but why on earth will KL not apologise? I find it hard to understand.

Mike

Mike,

Livingstone accused a reporter of moral cowardice. I have no idea whether that particular reporter was guilty of such cowardice but if he was then it is difficult to see what Livingstone should apologise for.

Besides, isn't it rather hypocritical of you, after your recent offensive remarks about Americans, to ask Livingstone to apologise? Calling your own remarks "A little out of order" fell way short of the mark.

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Bennett:

However, I wouldn't exactly say that all these people are

quote:

a match made in heaven

I think the point being made was that both livingstone and berlesconi didn't simply say "you're behaving like a nazi", they both made a direct comparison between the person who was 'attacking' them and a concentration camp guard. Now, I don't much care for the standards, much less for the mail, but this kind of talk simply isn't acceptable.

Are livingstone and berlesconi as bad as one and other? Probably not - after all, it would be tough to imply livingstone had links to organised crime, or that he was changing the laws to get himself out of trials, or that he had such conflicts of interest.

That said, I don't much care for livingstone's current 'good guy' reputation. He isn't. The man has absolutely no integrity: take his promise that he wouldn't run as an independent candidate, or the was, back when labour took control of the glc he promised to support the leader, then ran a coup against him. I could go on.

And as for the suggestion he was 'taken out of context'. Have you read the transcript? Ken should apologise, and if he feels he can't, and can't realise why what he's done is wrong, then he should go. Period.


regards,

Tam

JeremyD,

Your attack on MichaelC is itself out of order. I recall using the term 'out of order' to describe Michael's opening remarks in the thread in question but one error of judgement does not a racist make and I think you will find that Michael himself was big enough to recognise that the tone of his remarks was inappropriate and he did indeed apologise. For me that is the end of the matter.

Please desist from raking up matters which have long since been laid to rest.

JR

this is part of what was said as reported in an article on the bbc website:

quote:

On tape the mayor is heard asking Oliver Finegold if he is a "German war criminal".

Mr Finegold replies: "No, I'm Jewish, I wasn't a German war criminal. I'm quite offended by that."

The mayor then says: "Ah right, well you might be, but actually you are just like a concentration camp guard, you are just doing it because you are paid to, aren't you?"

It's not exactly the best comparison to make while you are on tape and in the public spotlight.

I do actually think more of him for standing up to the press (or sections of) and sticking to his beliefs. I personally don't think he needs to apologise and I certainly don't think it was a racist remark.

Given that the higher echelons of the Olympic Committee are in town to assess London as a possible venue for the 2012 games I rather think that the timing of this incident was perhaps not the best.

Whatever the merits or otherwise of an outright apology I think a show of humility from Mr Livingstone in short order is what is required here at the very least.

Cheers,

JR

JonR

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:
Your attack on MichaelC is itself out of order. I recall using the term 'out of order' to describe Michael's opening remarks in the thread in question but one error of judgement does not a racist make and I think you will find that Michael himself was big enough to recognise that the tone of his remarks was inappropriate and he did indeed apologise. For me that is the end of the matter.

Please desist from raking up matters which have long since been laid to rest.

1) I neither know nor care whether you used the term "out of order".

2) If MichaelC actually apologised then I apologise to him for saying he didn't but I certainly cannot find his apology.

3) It is not your place to tell others what matters to bring up.

JeremyD,

1) I did, and am not bothered whether you are aware of this or not, frankly.

2) Then do a search, then apologise.

3) Granted.

JR