Ken Livingstone

quote:

Originally posted by JeremyD:
Mike,
Besides, isn't it rather hypocritical of you, after your recent offensive remarks about Americans, to ask Livingstone to apologise? Calling your own remarks "A little out of order" fell way short of the mark.

I did think before posting whether or not the topic would be construed as being hypocritical.

But then I do believe that I stood up and acknowledged that I was wrong. Which is partly why I was happy to launch this topic. I could see the relevance. I have said something which I subsequently recognised to be wrong, and yes I will admit again that it was offesnive and I still regret making those comments.

I am firmly of the belief that Ken Livingstone said something that was wrong and with the benefit of hind sight offensive. Nonetheless I do not believe he meant to be offensive as such. I can draw a parallel with something a little closer to home and that is why I believe he should apologise. If he does not apologise then I would seriously question whether he deserves to be Mayor.

Mike

The blokes an arse and his department cost more than number 10!

Yes we know all about Tony, but wot abaat our Ken ?


Fritz Von Reds under the election

The London Evening Standard (which I’ve always mentally referred to as The Fascist Review) has waged nothing short of all out war on Livingstone (the man and the politician) since 1978. To say a feud has developed is huge understatement. So given that the spat in question was with a LES employee (do they have any real journalists on that rag? I doubt it), I attach absolutely no credence to it whatsoever – despite what was allegedly said and the fact that it’s now being reported media wide.

A load of non news nonsense to further distance us from anything that’s really happening out there IMO.

Cheers

Harry

I think that this particular issue has been overblown.

It's Mr. Livingstone's invitations to and support for Sheikh Qaradawi, an Islamicist speaker who has expressed extreme views against Jews and gays in particular but also against the Sikh and Hindu communities, that have done for Ken. He's alienated his own support base and no politician can survive that.

The exact incident that brings him down is probably not important. He's finished.

Regards
Steve M

If a racist apologises for a racist remark he remains a racist.

Ken is honest enough to see that an apology in this case would be insignificant because he meant what he said.

Ken associates himself with extremists, apologists for terrorists and anti-semites and he has very odd views on the holocaust. IMO he's never been a fit person to hold public office.

Paul

I've think we've all fallen into the classic old rag trap (I wonder if Nazi's etc, will be the order of the day at next years World Cup) I don't think so, innit.

Fritz Von Maggie was a Commie Bitch

Does anyone actually read the Evening Standard? I have picked it up only a few times over the years and it is by far one of the most boring papers I have ever tried to read.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelC:
...and it is by far one of the most boring papers I have ever tried to read.

No surprise really. Concentration camp guards make lousy journalists.

Regards
Steve M

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Ranson:

and he (Livingstone) has very odd views on the holocaust. .

Paul

Could you expand on this Paul?

Regards

Stephen

Red Ken? He has said that he has nothing to apologise for so any apology (just because that nice Mr Blair says he should) would be an empty, insincere gesture.

FWIW I think he is wrong. His second comment about the concentration camp guard was crass and certainly insulting to the journalist given that he has just been told by the journalist that he was Jewish and had been offended by the first comment.

quote:

Does anyone actually read the Evening Standard?

I bought a copy once but only for the banner headline "Beer prices to drop" which caused much hilarity amongst the Local People in the PoW that evening (Peter had only just put prices up!)

quote:

Originally posted by MichaelC:
Does anyone actually read the Evening Standard? I have picked it up only a few times over the years and it is by far one of the most boring papers I have ever tried to read.

Mike

The LOndon Evening Standard was purchased I would suggest by at least 80% of it's readers for the classified section ?


Fritz Von Early tabloids

As I see it there are several separate questions, which are better if not conflated:
My own answers/comments are in italics.

1) Was Livingstone justified in accusing the reporter of abnegating moral responsibility for his actions?

No idea.

2) Is it intrinsically racist to compare someone to a concentration camp guard?

Definitely not.

3) Is it different if the person concerned is Jewish?

The idea that Jews (and members other groups that were persecuted by the Nazis) are uniquely offended by the holocaust is absurd - and bordering on the racist in itself. Of course, it is different if the Jews in question are themselves holocaust survivors or close to holocaust survivors/victims.

4) If Livingstone was justified in making that accusation, was is it justifiable to use the metaphor of a concentration camp guard?

Some may find it tasteless but that is another matter. As far as I am concerned, it seems difficult to argue that journalists who refuse to accept moral responsibility for their actions are not on the same continuum as concentration camp guards - it is simply a matter of degree.

5) Is it ever appropriate for someone in public office to insult someone?

I would rather they didn't. But the fact is that it happens in parliament every day, and if it's acceptable in parliament, where people have no recourse to legal action, then must be equally acceptable outside parliament...

6) Is Livingstone a racist?

I don't know.

7) Would the media have paid as much attention to the story had it not been one of their own who was compared to a concentration camp guard? For example, wasn't Livingstone's decision to host Al-Qaradawi a matter of far greater concern and far more deserving of media scrutiny?

which 'the media' does one mean John ?

quote:

Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
which 'the media' does one mean John ?

As an afterthought or thrice before I'm jumped upon by somebody for being sarcastic in their eyes ? your points and answers above IMDO have been obviously very carefully thought out, and in contrast to many a post make good reading, and irrespective of wether I agree with them or not, which is neither here nor there, I do though actually for what it's worth find some 90%+ of your comments most enlightening, innit.

Fritz Von Learning by reading

quote:

Originally posted by JeremyD:
7) Would the media have paid as much attention to the story had it not been one of their own who was compared to a concentration camp guard? For example, wasn't Livingstone's decision to host Al-Qaradawi a matter of far greater concern and far more deserving of media scrutiny?

Good reasoned post although I do not agree with all its content.

As to point 7) I recall a degree of coverage over Al-Qaradawi and if memory serves me correctly that blew over fairly quickly. Likewise there was a little rumpous over the Labour Party posters - Howard/Letwin and pigs and again that appears to have blown over quickly. So I concur with your observation about one of their own. Vested interests and all that - isn't that just the way the world goes around?

Mike

quote:

Could you expand on this Paul?

I can't find a good link but there is a reference towards the bottom of this page. http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2005/01/memory_and_its_.html

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Ranson:

quote:

Could you expand on this Paul?

I can't find a good link but there is a reference towards the bottom of this page. http://oliverkamm.typepad.com/blog/2005/01/memory_and_its_.html

Paul

Ah, I see - you mean he has strange views about the Irish situation. I've not seen anything that suggests he's a holocaust revisionist or anything.

Poor Ken; mis-understood at every turn.

Regards

Stephen

I think just plain strange, occasionally dangerous, views.

He's also compared the World Bank and IMF to Hitler, IIRC...

Paul

quote:

Originally posted by Stephen Bennett:
Ah, I see - you mean he has strange views about the Irish situation. I've not seen anything that suggests he's a holocaust revisionist or anything.

Stephen,

If, on the other hand, Livingstone has an accurate knowledge of the Irish situation, he would have been a Holocaust revisionist with his Irish statement.

For Livingstone to make a comparison between the Standard journalist Oliver Finegold and a concentration camp guard is, in itself, an example of Holocaust denial or at least revisionism.

Regards
Steve M

No

He just lost his rag and said something stupid.

Anyone with any sense would have quickly apologised on the spot and none of us would ever of heard of it.

Regards

Mick

It's this silly instant escalation thing. Apologising for an intemperate remark can be done relatively easily. "Climbing down", being "forced to apologise" and all the rest - makes it much bigger than it need be.

Also there are ways of reporting events. Presented as they actually happened these incidents are often stupid but not the end of the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Ranson:
I think just plain strange, occasionally dangerous, views.

He's also compared the World Bank and IMF to Hitler, IIRC...

Paul

Who are the 'world bank' actually?

Are they the 'they' as in 'they who really run the world' or 'they say....'



Stephen

You could ask Ken.

Or go to http://www.worldbank.org/

Paul

I agree with Mick and Adam. Like Brian, I'm not entirely sure what he did wrong apart from losing his rag and being nasty to a journo who turned out to be Jewish. Regardless, he should have tossed the journo a cursory apology for being rude and then told him and his employers to get lost.

To build this up into anything more than the nasty exchange it was, is despicable and extrapolated crap like this

quote:

For Livingstone to make a comparison between the Standard journalist Oliver Finegold and a concentration camp guard is, in itself, an example of Holocaust denial or at least revisionism.

should be left in the gutter from where it originated, most likely from this witch http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary/ Oh yes indeed, February 15.

Considering the very real scourge of anti-Semitism, any decent person, Jewish or otherwise must put their head in their hands when they read rubbish like this from people who should know better.

I get the feeling that if the shoe was on the other foot, the Mail and all the usual suspects would be whinging that the outcry was “political correctness gone mad”