Ken Livingstone

Although to his credit to things British, once whils't our Ken was visiting a yoof training-skills scheme in East London many moons afore, one of his junior oppo's asked the Gaffer what tools they used in general, and the Master was heard to comment:

"Stanley I Presume"

Fritz Von Don't shoot the piano player, time for tea methinks, innit.

quote:

Originally posted by Harvey:
I get the feeling that if the shoe was on the other foot, the Mail and all the usual suspects would be whinging that the outcry was “political correctness gone mad”

Harvey,

As I said originally said (on page 2 of this thread):

I think that this particular issue has been overblown.

and:

It's Mr. Livingstone's invitations to and support for Sheikh Qaradawi ... that have done for Ken

I think that Blair called for an apology rather than let this matter die because he wants rid of Livingstone and probably thinks that if this doesn't do it then the next time Ken has a drink or three will.

You have hit the nail on the head when you mention political correctness but words really are important and in many instances the politically correct stance is the right one. I happen to hold the view that the currently popular practice of comparing people to Hitler and/or the Nazis usually has the effect of under-valuing the real evil that Hitler and his henchmen did and that's not something that I'd like to see happen.

Jeremy said (also on page 2 of this thread):

quote:

The idea that Jews (and members other groups that were persecuted by the Nazis) are uniquely offended by the holocaust is absurd - and bordering on the racist in itself. Of course, it is different if the Jews in question are themselves holocaust survivors or close to holocaust survivors/victims.

Certainly the Jews were not the only ones to suffer the holocaust but even today many Jews are or were close to a person or persons who either survived the holocaust or were murdered by it.

Incidentally, you say:

quote:

Like Brian, I'm not entirely sure what he did wrong apart from losing his rag and being nasty to a journo who turned out to be Jewish.

In fact, Ken made his "concentration camp guard" remarks after the journalist told him he was Jewish (transcript).

Be that as it may, I repeat that I think the incident has been overblown and, having said my piece, I for one intend to stop blowing.

Regards
Steve M

I've literally to my great suprise just seen "Hogan's Hero's" on French TV, or "Stalag 13" as they call it, I know the british "Ello Ello" was never appreciated there (or here) (maybe as it is in fact British) and is/was naturally a question of comedic taste (I personally loved it, the Chief doesn't) . Faulty Towers famous goostepping sketch was loved here (granted late at night originally some 14 years back), but my point being, nobody gives a monkeys toss about Livingstones comments
barring Blaire's 'Fear²' naturally in respect of pre.erection damage limitation excercise instilled by 'US', not Ken.

Fritz Von Limiting Red Wedge and spelling auotoigrafy wrongly innit.

Basically Brian - if "they" don't like you, you are stuffed.
Stupid thing to say - lots of agendas attached.

quote:

Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
I've literally to my great suprise just seen "Hogan's Hero's" on French TV, or "Stalag 13" as they call it, I know the british "Ello Ello" was never appreciated there (or here) (maybe as it is in fact British) and is/was naturally a question of comedic taste (I personally loved it, the Chief doesn't) . Faulty Towers famous goostepping sketch was loved here ...

My wife, who is German, likes some UK or US comedy shows but the first time she saw Chaplin's "The Great Dictator" she literally fell off her chair laughing at the bit where he starts speaking 'mock German'.

Regards
Steve M
Ve-e-e-ry interesting, but stoopid.

Yes it is brilliant isn't it ! With all due respect, can I assume that your wife has lived in the UK for a very long time, as I find in my experience it does make quite a difference, even if one has relatively regular contact with Germany ?


Fritz Von It's a question of mentality and era

quote:

Originally posted by 7V:

In fact, Ken made his "concentration camp guard" remarks after the journalist told him he was Jewish (transcript).

I showed this to my Jewish wife and she was horrified to the extent that she NEVER wants to visit London whilst this pseudo-Nazi is in control.

Why the hell aren't the British Government taking this (insert favourite derogatory term) to task over this ? The man is a total buffoon.

And why, specifically, was your wife horrified ?

BOR

I'm keeping well out of this one, I'm orf.

Brian

Simple. KL is meant to be in charge (ie. mayor) of Britain's largest city. A city that is widely multi-cultural and the defined capital city of the UK.

A country that is seen largely as a multi-cultural entity that embraces freedom and tolerance.

The man is a bigot, racist, zealot and closet fascist. Maybe he should just board the Channel Tunnel and bugger off elsewhere.

God help the "Olympic Spirit" if he is in charge in the event of the bid being successful.

OK. Assuming Ken is all of those things. But why?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think you've specifically explained why your wife was horrified ?

quote:

The man is a bigot, racist, zealot and closet fascist

I think that kinda sums it up...........

quote:

Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
Yes it is brilliant isn't it ! With all due respect, can I assume that your wife has lived in the UK for a very long time, as I find in my experience it does make quite a difference, even if one has relatively regular contact with Germany ?

Well actually, my wife was foolish enough to marry me when I was 48 and she was considerably younger. This was about 5 years ago and she's been living in England for under 5 years. In fact, we watched the Chaplin video before we were married, while we were house-sitting for some friends of mine (in Surrey), so she hadn't been 'Englified' at all by then.

I know what you mean though. As a matter of fact, I think that hearing her laughing so hysterically at Chaplin's German impression was probably the reason I proposed (that and the fact that she was expecting our first child).

Brian,

You ask a difficult question. LTD will understand and his wife will know but I believe the truth is that it ain't easy being a Jew.

Some people (few) don't recognise Jews, they don't really know whether a person is Jewish or not. Others like Jews, some people don't like them and, thankfully, many see them as just like anyone else.

As a Jew I often feel that I'm 'on guard'. I hate to see true anti-semitism and I'm often blind to it. Sometimes I'm over sensitive to things that are said. I'm generally an outsider - I'm usually an Englishman when abroad, a Jew when I'm in England and a bit of both when I'm in Germany.

I try hard not to read anti-semitism where it doesn't exist. At the same time, I can't forget that a few years before I was born, they killed most of us in Europe while many native Europeans happily cooperated, others turned a blind eye and a few did what they could to protect us.

I don't know which category Mr. Livingstone would come into but perhaps LTD's wife has her own views.

Sorry for getting a bit personal and heavy but my wife and kids are away this week (visiting my in-laws in Germany) and they left the scotch.

Regards
Steve M

Whilst I struggle to see how you come to your opinion and would be interested to hear your justification, I actually think it's ok for you to call Ken a Nazi and a Fascist because when somone acts in what we perceive to be a dictatorial fashion and piss us off then it's quite normal today to use Nazism or Fascism as a yardstick, not to diminish the horrors of either but by reference, to underline how deeply we abhor the person in question. To any rational soul it looks like Ken was pissed off and let off a torrent of abuse, just like you did in your last post. Isn't your wife horrified at your post or is it ok for you but not people who you don't care for anyway?

Ken's long running feud with the Mail was the backdrop to his outburst. What's your excuse?

Ken isn't perfect but I live in london and from my experience by and large he has lived up to his promises the expectations of those who voted for him and regrettably there are few politicians I can say that about.

I hope that when your wife finds something real to be horrified about, like real anti-semetism, she will return to our fine capital.

quote:

Originally posted by Harvey:
...I actually think it's ok for you to call Ken a Nazi and a Fascist because when somone acts in what we perceive to be a dictatorial fashion and piss us off then it's quite normal today to use Nazism or Fascism as a yardstick, not to diminish the horrors of either but by reference, to underline how deeply we abhor the person in question.

But it does diminish the horrors.

Steve
I think that you're right when say you're wary of spotting prejudice where it doesn't exist. I don’t think that it does society or the cause of any group any favours if they are seen to be zealously seeking out discrimination, prejudice or malice where none really exists, be they Jews, Irish or Indian. It's totally counterproductive and dilutes the force of legitmate claims of real and actual prejudice. In this respect specifically, I think that vile demagogues like Melanie Phillips and those of similar mind do a grave disservice to Jews.

So then as I remarked, LTD's wife and we all should be equally horrified by his remarks.

quote:

Originally posted by Harvey:
... I think that vile demagogues like Melanie Phillips and those of similar mind do a grave disservice to Jews.

Well ok.

I tend to spend time at Harry's Place (articles on the Livingstone affair are down the page entitled "This sorry tale" and "Ken Livingstone uses Racist Discourse"). I also visit Normblog (article entitled "Too much slack for the Mayor? (updated)").

I believe that both Harry and Norm are Marxists but even so I find them to be interesting reading for an old rightie like me.

Norman Geras is a professor of politics at Manchester University, while Harry happens to be a supporter of Burnley FC which gives me another reason to visit, as I am too. I wouldn't describe either as vile demagogues but if you get time to snoop around, let me know if they are.

Regards
Steve M

My wife is not horrified by my post - she agrees.

What we must remember, and I am not Jewish, is that ANY oppressed religion has a distinct fear and hatred of the past genocidal acts.

My wife has lost many members of her family and resultant countless generations of cousins as a result of "The Great Ideal" of Hitler. Of course she has a total disregard for anybody who has no appreciation of what the Holocaust brought and also has fears when somebody who can make major decisions is brought closer into power, Forgotten Hitler already ?

As I said, the UK is a vast multi-cultural society. It is full of people of diverse ethnic backgrounds and these MUST be respected by the people in power.

Ken Livingstone's support of an anti-semetic brands him the same. This supports him as a fascist, genocidal racist and bigot. His self-centered ego-trip towards power supports him as a zealot and I do believe that he will be the kindling to massive racial tension within London.

The sooner he is removed from power, the better.

I leave this with an image of hope taken at the concentration camp of Birkenau. The railway was the final journey taken by many to a living hell of starvation, torture and experimentation.

Without debating angels dancing on pinheads, let's be real, nothing Ken, LTD or anyone is going to say is actually going to diminish the horrors any more than David Icke saying that the moon is made of cheese is going to make it so.

The horrors are archived historical fact and generally accepted and some hormonal shopper calling a parking warden a Nazi or Ken losing his rag might matter in the mind of someone such as Melanie Phillips and the like, consumed with seeing hidden meanings, sinister motivation and premeditations that simply do not exist in these circumstances.

The wackos who sit and quietly deny or revise the Holocaust, who write books and establish groups to espouse this junk, these are the people to whom, if one wants to be concerned or horrified about such a thing, one should direct one's attention.

I'm not familiar with the blogs so can nether deny nor confirm their demagogery but if they are pumping out the same line which basically plays to the emotions and prejudices of their intended audiences then yeah, doesn't matter who they support, they're vile demagogues. I really wouldn't get hung up on the terminology, just the fact that a lot of people, and to your credit not you, are falsely and disgracefully using the Holocaust and invented claims of racism and anti-semitism as weapons to beat on this guy.

LTD
Whilst anyone here appreciates what your wife and family have endured I'm afraid that we are no closer to finding out why your wife is horrified at Ken's remark. maybe when we find that out we'll discover why she is not equally horrified by the way you're so keen to accuse someone of being a Nazi and a Fascist. You have also not told us the basis for all of your accusations. I'm not willing to take a bullet for Ken or anything but i gotta say with your violent and irrational reaction you come over as a bit unhinged.

quote:

Originally posted by long-time-dead:
Ken Livingstone's support of an anti-semetic brands him the same. This supports him as a fascist, genocidal racist and bigot. His self-centered ego-trip towards power supports him as a zealot and I do believe that he will be the kindling to massive racial tension within London.

Anyone who suggests Livingstone's comment, stupid though it was, and for which he obviously should apologise, gives credence to the notion that he is a "genocidal racist", is, frankly, in need of medication.

-- Ian

Harvey

Please read everything carefully. A man that is supportive of an anti-semetic decides to contrast a concentration camp guard with a journalist when questioned on something different. Hardly a modern metaphor but something that is deeply set in his mind.

Ian.

Maybe you should actually read my statement again.

His openly public support of support of an anti-semetic whilst in public office means that he embraces the same ideals. Genocidal racism.

There is no need for his stupidiy to be an excuse for his beliefs.

Maybe both of you need to be involved a little more within the Jewish community to understand more.

Ever mourned the passing of a family member (or twenty) that have no date of death, let alone a just reason ?

I think not.

Maybe now you will understand a little.

The man is beyond excuse.

quote:

Originally posted by sideshowbob:
Anyone who suggests Livingstone's comment, stupid though it was, and for which he obviously should apologise, gives credence to the notion that he is a "genocidal racist", is, frankly, in need of medication.

Ian, if you can vouch for the quality of your 'medication' I might consider doing a bit of credence giving myself.

Shhhteve M

- no offence meant, just my attempt at levity

Ian

Is it fair to make a crass statement in public, apologise and then have no remorse ?

The statement should NEVER have been made if he believed the contrary.

True colours ?

quote:

Originally posted by long-time-dead:
Maybe both of you need to be involved a little more within the Jewish community to understand more.

With respect, LTD, you don't know the first thing about me. Presumption is a dangerous thing.

He made a stupid and offensive comment. But he's quite clearly not a genocidal racist. I'm no fan of Livingstone's opportunist political method, but I don't think it adds anything to the debate to use such inappropriate language.

-- Ian