Ken Livingstone

... and ?

We seem to be going round in circles on this now. FWIW, I'm less interested in the specifics of the Ken case, but rather the mechanics of who is allowed to call whom a fascist or a N*zi.

And while most of us can't claim personal links to the horror of the Holocaust, we're smart enough to know what it means to the Jewish community and understand it as far as is realistic. I believe that 99.9% of this forum would personally go into bat for anyone on the receiving end of raciscm or anti-semitism, so I think we have to be given the benefit of the doubt there.

Calling a traffic warden a N*zi doesn't trivialise the Holocaust in my opinion, you reach for words that you, and you hope your opponent will find offensive. I actually feel, that taken in context, Ken's remarks were arguably in support of the Jewish community.

I don't like people crying "wolf", I feel it devalues the cause.

Brian

quote:

Originally posted by long-time-dead:
[I showed this to my Jewish wife and she was horrified to the extent that she NEVER wants to visit London whilst this pseudo-Nazi is in control.

Why the hell aren't the British Government taking this (insert favourite derogatory term) to task over this ? The man is a total buffoon.

l.t.d., you've just done exactly what you are criticising Ken of; jumping on the 'nazi' bandwagon.

Surely if he was a nazi he'd have welcomed someone 'behaving like a a concentration camp guard' with open arms?



Ken Livingstone is many things. A nazi he is not.

Stephen

quote:

Originally posted by long-time-dead:


My wife has lost many members of her family and resultant countless generations of cousins as a result of "The Great Ideal" of Hitler.

Yet you throw out 'nazi' allegations casually at Livingstone. Aren't you guilty of reducing the importance of the term by doing that? The nazis conducted mass genocide and systematic abuse of minorities in Europe and instigated a world war in which millions died.

You really think Ken Livingstone is a 'nazi'?

Regards

Stephen

quote:

Please read everything carefully.

Don’t try to patronize me when you can’t even get the basics right. Ken didn’t contrast the now infamous excuse of the concentration camp guard, “I was just doing my job, following orders” with the actions of the journalist, he compared it, just as you happily compared Ken to a Nazi or Fascist. Has your wife still established why she’s not horrified with you doing just that? It was the comparison that gave those so inclined to conjure up a fanciful picture of an anti-semetic attack when in fact what Ken did was to rightly use the camp guard’s reaction as a reference to something which was vile and despicable.

quote:

I think not

That much is obvious from your postings.
And yes, in spite of your presumptive insistence to the contrary, we’ve lost a relative not knowing when exactly, why and never finding a body. Our loss doesn’t give us the right to spout baseless abuse and detach ourselves from reality and you should learn that neither does your wife’s. I find your invocation and exploitation of the death of family members to bolster your right to make fraudulent claims of racism disgraceful.

If work colleagues are anything to go by, I’d be surprised if involvement with the Jewish community didn’t show your reaction to be extreme, atypical and not a little embarrassing.

quote:

… and ?

Between your wife being horrified for no explainable reason and your insistence that ken is a genocidal racist I agree with Ian that you are in need of a reality check and some rapid intervention, medical or otherwise. As such I see no further point in debating this issue with you until you can show yourself to have successfully addressed your problem.

I don't know what Ken Livingstone 'is' apart from very odd indeed, but calling traffic wardens 'Nazis' does trivialise history.

Paul

Traffic wardens have been referred to as fascists in Britain since time immimorial (true or True ?) though now it's very bad PC. Ken is a Gobshite when he's had a few too many sherbets(True or True) no excuse, but fact.

Fritz Von I didn't know t Africa's biggest country Sudan, has large oil reserves which are presently being guarded by Chinese soldiers, did you ?

Burnley FC are shite² Alisdaire told me so, innit

True. True.

No, but they have been vetoing any UN move to sanction. Oil is still more important than life, even (especially?) in China. I was hoping that Horizon would have successfully invented fusion last night but no. I knew the BBC couldn't save the world ...

...although they are showing the Campbell v Straw match on Sunday. Let's hope the second best team wins.

Regards
Steve M

Sounds like a job for my old mate Tony Mac, and The Mighty Groundhogs, innit.


Fritz Von Saving the world yet again

Statement next tuesday lunchtime ***

How awful. I'm looking forward to that, NOT.

So no apology from Ken !

He's also taken the opportunity to rip into The Mail and the reporter AGAIN ! Great stuff !

You go Ken !

Chaps

He was voted in and we all knew of his temperment before the election.

I think the time as come to shut up and wait for the results of the next election. Let the electorate decide.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
I think the time as come to shut up and wait for the results of the next election.

Where's the fun in that? The next elections aren't until 2008.

Regards
Steve M

No apology required IMO. I'm not a fan of Mr L. but the journalist obviously got on his tits.

There was a time in this country when you could in public, have a laugh at someone elses expense and take the piss without some nearby twat looking horrified and stating, 'You can't say that'. For goodness sake, it's just a joke. Remember sticoms such as 'Til death us do part'? I don't recall anyone getting upset and complaining. If they did no one took it seriously.

My oh my how times have changed. Why don't we all wrap ourselves in cotton wool, bung in some ear plugs and stay indoors. I'm fed up to the teeth with all this PC crap. Lets get back to normality and leave all that shite from whence it came.

Regards...George.

As I said in my original post, if he's broken the law then let the 'Mail' etc, take him to task. If this fiasco continues, we'll very likely see Mr Livingstone turning the tables and taking out a case agains't them (something of which he's quite experienced" and will get a lot of suppoort for it too, even from the large Jewish sector of London, so who's kidding who here once again ?


Fritz Von The man sincerely cares about LOndon and it's people, that's why he was voted in AGAIN even únder pressure from silly Tone and his Scottish terrier Alisdaire (Who know when they're beaten by a good man)

7V

You are just going to have to curb your natural tendency to comment/whinge on this topic and find something else to bore us with.

The main problem has already been stated, he lost his rag with some obnoxious journalist and if he had any sense would have apologised on the spot and this would have all died a death.

His problem being is that the longer it is left, the harder it is to back down.

Personally, I think KL is a totally useless sod but he is not a racist, he just made a stupid off the cuff remark and the pc brigade are making a mountain out of a molehile.

Let the electorate decide, the chances are, they could not give a toss.

Regards

Mick

A bravura performance at this morning's press conference, I thought. Judging by the callers into BBC Radio london, Ken seems to be winning plaudits for taking on Associated Newspapers, which represents the dirtiest of the gutter press in this country.

Under the truly hopeless Miss Veronica Wadley, a pitiful Dacre clone, the Standard has declined terribly and is little more than a pale version of the Mail which seems completely disconnected from the city it claims to serve - no wonder its sales are in freefall.

I don't think Ken should apologise for this incident, but he does owe us Londoners an apology - for allowing that vile Muslim cleric in, at public expense. I do not think bigoted, homophobic, racist, anti-semitic, sexist scum like this are welcome in a tolerant, multi-faceted city like London.
If Ken wants to invite this sort of person to speak, fair enough, but if he's spending public money to do so he should at least invite an opposing speaker to counter Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi's deeply unpleasant fascist ideology.

He should definitely apologise to Londoners for claiming to speak on their behalf re the
al-Qaradawi controversy, because most people here never wanted him to come in the first place.

The ever-excellent Nick Cohen wrote rather well about this in last Sunday's Observer.

Read Nick's comment here

Kevin

_________________________________________________
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GML:
I'm fed up to the teeth with all this PC crap. Lets get back to normality and leave all that shite from whence it came.
________________________________________________

If 'PC' means we no longer have to suffer such racist trash as your West Indians popping their big black face over the garden fence and greeting you with a 'hello dere' a la 'Love thy neighbour', gay men being portrayed as effeminate buffoons a la Dick Emery, women being harrased by dirty old pervs a la Benny Hill and bigots no longer feeling comfortable using terms like 'coon' and 'poof' then sign me up to the PC brigade at once. Alf Garnett was supposed to be a parody of ignorant racism. The danger was the irony was lost on some who had their racism reaffirmed by his tiny-mind views.

This:

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
... I think the time as come to shut up and wait for the results of the next election. Let the electorate decide.

is followed 90 minutes later by this:

quote:

The main problem has already been stated, he lost his rag with some obnoxious journalist and if he had any sense would have apologised on the spot and this would have all died a death.

His problem being is that the longer it is left, the harder it is to back down.

Personally, I think KL is a totally useless sod but he is not a racist, he just made a stupid off the cuff remark and the pc brigade are making a mountain out of a molehile.

Let the electorate decide, the chances are, they could not give a toss.

And I'm the one who has to curb my 'natural tendency to comment/whinge on this topic and find something else to bore us with'.

Right.

Regards
Steve M

quote:

Originally posted by Malky:
_________________________________________________If 'PC' means we no longer have to suffer such racist trash as your West Indians popping their big black face over the garden fence and greeting you with a 'hello dere' a la 'Love thy neighbour', gay men being portrayed as effeminate buffoons a la Dick Emery, women being harrased by dirty old pervs a la Benny Hill and bigots no longer feeling comfortable using terms like 'coon' and 'poof' then sign me up to the PC brigade at once. Alf Garnett was supposed to be a parody of ignorant racism. The danger was the irony was lost on some who had their racism reaffirmed by his tiny-mind views.

You seem to have missed the point. The programmes you mention were intended to make people laugh and laugh they did. On a recent repeat episode of 'Bullseye' (a darts/quiz show from the eighties) the host Jim Bowen was interviewing two lads from Scotland and the inevitable quip about Scotsmen being tight with money arose. No one got upset, it was just a joke. Some people nowadays need to lighten up more and not take things too seriously. People laughing at people, we all do it and it's nothing to do with racism. Go on, have a laugh, if you can.

Happy days...George.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GML:

_________________________________________________
______________________________________

People laughing at people, we all do it and it's nothing to do with racism.
______________________________________
George, People did indeed laugh at the programmes I mentioned, I can't deny it. You are not, however, seriously suggesting those programmes demonstrated any degree of clever humour. The basis of the humour in 'Love thy neighbour' et al was, West Indians are to be laughed at because they're diferrent, speak funny etc...
There is a degree of truth in all stereotypes, otherwise stereotypes as a concept could not work. It is the intention and effect of the humour which is important. Racist TV sitcoms in the seventies contributed to an atmosphere in which racial discrimination was an everyday experience for many black and Asian people. Although I'm not arguing that that racism is no longer a problem, I am glad that 'Jim Davidson' style taking the piss out of black people purely to get a cheap racist laugh is now considered less acceptable.
Consider the finely tuned taking the piss out of Jewish culture achieved by Woody Allen or Krusty the Clown, or the acerbic wit of Chris Morris applied to the hugely emotive and controversial subject of the hypocrisy of the media when covering child-abuse or drugs. This level of humour finds its target with great skill without being offensive trash.
Yes, go ahead and laugh by all means, god knows we need a laugh or two to see us through. This needn't mean we have to revert to a humour which stigmatises and takes the piss solely on the basis of race or gender.
Malky.

Malky,

I agree with your comments in respect of the example 'Love Thy Neighbour'. It wasn't funny at all IMO. I believe that good ole bit of fun 'taking the piss' should prevail but not on a racist theme. As I recall most of 'Til death us do part' was of a political/domestic nature.

Do you think that Benny Hill or Dick Emery really did any harm.

It just seems that these days some people appear shocked at what they hear when there simply is no need. The KL comment being a case in point. I'm not saying he was right to use the phrase but there wasn't any need for the outcry that followed.

Happy listening...George.

Ken surely projects himself as the epitome of PC. This incident shows the true Ken, a man who, when inconvenienced in a public place by a journalist asking a reasonable question, likens himself to a victim of Nazi oppression.

He's a joke, he's always been a joke, I don't know why London elected him or why Labour have anything to do with him.

Paul

I'm no fan of Ken Livingstone, but I'm even less fond of the politics of the 'Daily Mail' or 'Evening Standard'. I do think you have to be very sensitive on any pronouncement regarding the Holocaust and Ken should have exercised more discretion. I can't help but agree, however, with his points about the Mail's history of supporting fascism and the recent reports/editorials of both the Mail and Standard in relation to immigration which have
done little to foster positive racial relations.