Royal (?) wedding (?)

I hear that the reason that person is coming to OZ next week is that there is some chance of a proxy wedding.

Steve,
A bit off thread but,
where are the millions & millions of wasted £'s,
this is the same old rhetoric that is rolled out time and time again, sure there is going to be some mis spent money there always is in large organisation, generally down to the management/Goverment. For example just how much did that computer system cost that was going to link up all GP'S with the entire NHS system, do I detect some kind of pattern here,Army comunication system, Air traffic control, the Navys torpedo [that would only go round in circles] The list is endless, but if you ever are unfortunate enough to have a medical emergency or long term illness the NHS can not be faulted. Given the oppertunity and if there was any waste so to speak of, I would prefer my money to go to the NHS,with all of it's faults and failings than a single penny to be spent on
"THAT" Family .
Just My thoughts you understand.
oldie.

quote:

Originally posted by oldie:
...if you ever are unfortunate enough to have a medical emergency or long term illness the NHS can not be faulted.

Still off topic, my father died a year and a half ago, after lengthy (and improperly diagnosed) illnesses, while my mother has been in and out of various hospitals recently.

I cannot disagree with you more when you say that the NHS cannot be faulted. Overall, the standard is awful, although it's very mixed and depends on individual wards, doctors, nurses, etc. NHS hospitals are dirty, inefficient and often shambolic. Moreover, if a patient has more than one 'issue' the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing.

One of the worse aspects that my family found with the NHS was the disgusting bullying treatment of patients who are in a state where they are unable to stand up for themselves. To be frank, you need intervention from a relative or carer who is both articulate and forceful.

Statistics also show that there is a far higher probability of dying from illnesses such as heart conditions and certain cancers than in virtually any other 'advanced' country in the world.

Oldie, I'm afraid that you're looking at the NHS through rose coloured glasses. I believe that in the 1950s it really was very much like you describe it. Sadly those days are long gone. We've gone from having the best health system in the world before the war - for both rich and poor - to one of the worst. We badly need a 'Stockholm transition' in this country.

Regards
Steve M

sorry my Finger slipped before I was finished

quote:

Originally posted by 7V:
[Oldie, I'm afraid that you're looking at the NHS through rose coloured glasses. I believe that in the 1950s it really was very much like you describe it. Sadly those days are long gone. We've gone from having the best health system in the world before the war - for both rich and poor - to one of the worst. We badly need a 'Stockholm transition' in this country.

Regards
Steve M

Sorry again Steve,
I can not agree with your prognosis, we can all find fault with any system if we try hard enough, but in general, in my experance I still maintain the NHS can not be beaten.Try getting into Bupa with a long term illness or Cancer and see how good the treatment is there, from ,again my experance, unfortunatly the treatment consists of a ambulance[ again NHS ] transfer to a NHS hospital. It was of course the Torys that started the down would slide[rot] by removing the position of Matron and reducing Staffing levels in the NHS to save money. What is needed imo is massive injections of cash, pay the staff a wage that reflects their worth and role in our society, increase their self esteem, lift their morale increase Staffing levels to workable number, reduce over hours[often unpaid]working, and then you will see a change, for to long we have demoralized NHS staff by longer working hours and very poor pay. I wonder how many that post on this form , yourself included would work for a nurses salary
remember the old adage , Pay peanuts get monkeys
also the often quoted: "We must pay high salarys to get the best Managers" but the same
considerations are never applied to the workers.
Oldie.
PS Just for information purposes, my spectacles are not rose coloured, they are reactalight, so in reality itseems as though I'm looking at every thing through a film of Sh-t,Maybe that explains everything

I will readily admit that the French and German health systems, where even more money is spent than on ours, are better than the NHS. However, I also believe that both of these systems are unsustainable.

I would certainly pay nurses considerably more than they're currently earning for the reasons you stated. Unfortunately, one can't roll back what has been done in the NHS as what existed before exists no longer. Certainly we should look into the success of the Stockholm health reforms that have taken place in Sweden. Other than that, perhaps the idea of local income tax with more accountability would go some way to fixing the system.

I can't accept that giving more and more funding to a failing system is the answer. Apart from the fact that this largely goes towards funding inefficient and over bureaucratic administration (which as you said was exasperated by the Tories with their equally disasterous health policies), the burdens put upon the tax system of the country as a whole would cause a catastrophic slowdown in growth - as has happened in France and Germany.

Oldie, we're never likely to agree on this issue. However, my hopes for the health system, which at first glance may seem anti-socialist, are genuinely intended to lead to better health care for all citizens, rich and poor. I just cannot see that this can be achieved by centralisation or government control.

I bet the French and German systems don't have the same level of health abuse from freeloading "health tourists" that we have over here either though...

Ridding the NHS of all the dead wood (middle management) would be a step in the right direction.

Junking the Royals is, of course, another; wander how much we REALLY get in tourism for keeeping those freeloading scroungers on?

BTW - WHY can Edward use a chopper when he should be using rail???

According to members of my own family my father was wrongly diagnosed last year in an NHS hospital, sent home, and quickly deteriorated, returned to hospital and died relatively young and unexpectedly in November in Barts hospital London, wether this mis-diagnosis led to his demise, I cannot tell, but I do realte to the bullying aspect mentioned by 7up earlier.


Fritz Von Peanuts & Monkeys

N.B. As I've previously said Germany has too many Health Insurance Schemes 80ish, which when streamlined will be excellent I feel. I am at present unemployed and insured privately, I rang my Doc earlier re: a regular Prescription, it will be in my letter box tommorów morning, simple as that.

Graham,
I'm sorry to hear of your Fathers wrong diagnosis and ultimate demise, but that was due no doupt to amoungst other things, human failing, what do we expect when Doctors work upwards of 80 hrs a week and then can be expected to remain on "call".Is the attitude you discribe, one of "Bullying" or We know whats best for you,? It's a very thin line between the two of them when your on the receiving end in a situation thats both out of your control and stressful.
Domf
This very statment was quoted on News Night [BBC2 10.30 Pm] a week or so ago and so came up for discussion, and statistics prove that as many Brit's are treated abroad on the Health Service Excange Agreement, as people from over countrys get treated here, and even if the balance wasn't that close would you wish to see fellow humans suffer when we have the facilities to treat them here.But I agree whole heartedly with all of your other points.
I'm not sure why I'm haveing to defend our NHS on this thread, I was under the impression that this thread was about if or otherwise we should support/pay for the goings on, for the disfunctional family that live at the end of the Mall.
oldie.

Mall-Functional Family Shorely ?


Though, as I assume is the meaning of 7up ? I refer not only to Doctors, but the bullying attitude of the staff generally ! They are in the wrong proffession if they can't get a grip on their priorities.


Fritz Von Cheers, and NO, that's not a green light for all and sundrie to jump on the easy road bandwagon and accuse me of belittleing our 'Angels', I've made my pouints very clearly more times than I care to remember on the NHS thread, which somebody may wish to find ?

Oldie

The NHS has gone from being a world leader to a 2nd rater because successive governments from the 1960's (yes Labour & Tory) have not spent enough money on it and the people within it are not as good as generally supposed.

The Consultants milk it for every penny and then carry out private work on top.

The Purchasing for the NHS is the worst for any government dept. There are 192 different trusts, all buying different things with very little national coordination....the reason being that the overpaid doctors rule the roost and the enterntainment of them by suppliers is legendary.

The overpaid doctors treat it as a business and their income always comes first. When I dislocated my shoulder 4 years ago, I was told I needed an operation to stop it popping out. The consultant said the waiting list was 2 years. When I mentioned BUPA, the same consultant made an appointment for 10 days later.

Now what do you think his priorities were, my welfare or my wallet.

Mrs Mick had the same situation with another quack for her ingroing toenails. A fortnights wait when private or joing the queue with the poor sods in the NHS. He was only interested in his fee.


The office staff are not that good either. Thier sickness and absentism levels are amongst the highest in the civil service.

The nurses are the only decent ones in the whole sorry system.

I thank God that I have private insurance and if necessary can even go abroad to get better treatment. Even BUPA hospitals are nothing to boast about. You can get much better treatment by going private in Spain or Hungary and even india for eye surgery. The cost is cheaper even allowing for air fares.

The NHS is a brilliant idea in concept but it needs a radical overhaul from top to bottom as well as an injection of even more cash.

Thank goodness I do not depend on it.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by oldie:
I'm not sure why I'm haveing to defend our NHS on this thread, I was under the impression that this thread was about if or otherwise we should support/pay for the goings on, for the disfunctional family that live at the end of the Mall.

Well, it all started with...

quote:

Originally posted by oldie:
The amount of money this Country wastes on that family and it's hangers on each year, not to mention the wealth that has historically been stolen from its people would provide enough Hospitals,Schools, homes for the homeless...

...and then I asked how many hospitals the NHS had built in London with the considerable proportion of our taxes it had received.

It all went downhill from there really.

But let's face it, Aneurin must be turning over in his grave.

Regards
Steve M

Mick,
I do not disagree with a lot of your comments regarding the consultants etc, but they have been allowed to get away with robbing the system for years by goverments of all colours, even the mid blue Blair has done little or nothing to stop their mal practices apart to give us platitudes. But at the end of the day it's there when needed. Unlike your unfortunate experance, a friend of mine was diagnosed with Bowel Cancer two years ago, and within a couple of weeks of the diagnosis She had been operated on and was up and about to all intents and purposes cured,as she lives on her own this also include a stay in a NHS Hotel for a week to recuperate.Sorry I just can not fault the NHS even with all of it's problems.
As you are aware Mick [ some of the newer members might not know] I'm a miserable old sod
so praise from me is a very rare acheivment and not issued on a regular basis.
Ps nice to hear from you again,[ you never thought you would ever see that written by me] I thought that in my enforced absence from the forum by Tesco.net everybody had been transported to another Planet Do you by any chance have Tom's e-mail Address, he's another poster I miss.
oldie.

Ohhhhhhhhhh Steve,
So it's my fault is it
oldie

quote:

Originally posted by oldie:
...So it's my fault is it

No, the blame is all mine.

Incidentally, I have Tom's email address. If you care to mail me at steve at seventh-veil.com I'll be happy to give it to you.

Regards
Steve M

As I may have mentioned before ? Last september my GP sent me to a specialist (who I saw the next say) to check out a marble size lump on my throat (first time ever) he diagnosed it as a tumour, and the next day I was operated upon and it was removed. After waiting (a very long week) I was fortunately informed that it was not cancerous. I honestly believe that if I lived in UK, I could still be waiting for the initial specialist visit, and God only knows when and if it would ever be dealt with ? and all of the extra stress factors to-boot. If I decide to go to say Poland or Czech Republic for treatment my own Insurance company must be aware of the fact and agree to it, otherwise like a cowboy mechanic playing with a Roller's motor, it's warranty becomes null & void, innit.


Fritz Von My mate dislocated his shoulder trying to hide his wallet quickly when it was his round once!

Mick Parry said

quote:

The overpaid doctors treat it as a business and their income always comes first.

You've got no idea what your talking about, it's your usual blanket statement. Why don't you do everyone a favour and sod off abroad, if you think it's that much better, and that comes from my wife who's getting fed up of the crap that you spout about the NHS. Its not worth dignifying with a constructed argument.

Fritzy
I sympathise with your scare... but just to play devils advocate here, was the operation that you had actually necessary? It turned out to be a benign problem and it might have been appropriate to wait and see (for a short while) what happened to it, or have less invasive tests which would have correctly identified its nature.

Any operation carries a risk, and one thing the NHS does very well, is to balance the risk of over-investigating, over-treating and causing more anxiety, against the benefits of taking a course of action. Most private healthcare systems have much higher investigation costs than the NHS, but this does not necessarily translate into better health outcomes for the population.

Regards
Clive

One quick (repeat) reminder that I think can swiftly improve one aspect of NHS care on a psychological basis is attitude. Countless cases of drunk, doped, arrogant, spineless morons attacking and harrassing staff a A & E units, as well as other clinics etc, can I feel be sorted by local communities outcasting them 'who'ever they may be'. Guards, police, Laws, do not solve this intrinsic 'Pathetic' & 'Sick' lack of respect for people dedicated to help others.


Fritz Von It's free and results in good feeling allround, hanging's too good for the bastrd's it's a good kick up the arse they require, innit

quote:

Originally posted by cunningplan:
Fritzy
I sympathise with your scare... but just to play devils advocate here, was the operation that you had actually necessary? It turned out to be a benign problem and it might have been appropriate to wait and see (for a short while) what happened to it, or have less invasive tests which would have correctly identified its nature.

Any operation carries a risk, and one thing the NHS does very well, is to balance the risk of over-investigating, over-treating and causing more anxiety, against the benefits of taking a course of action. Most private healthcare systems have much higher investigation costs than the NHS, but this does not necessarily translate into better health outcomes for the population.

Regards
Clive

Thanks for that 'good point', but I personally had/have the LUXURY of 'uncodintionally' seeking second and third professional opinions without any recourse. The lump in question had been there awhile (some 3 months) before I had it looked at, as I thought myself initially that it was just a boilesque shaving affair ? I had just started a new job at the time, and when I bemoaned the fact that I may lose it etc, as I was on probabtion still, the Prof nearly took my head off over my sense of priority (no money thoughts on his part, believe me Micky). Ulztimately 'I' take the informed decision, and ultimately 'I' am responsible for my own actions.

Cheers anyway,

Fritz Von Wot's up Doc ?

Cunningplan

Everything that I said was true.

Both my wife and I were seen much more quickly bydoctors when we mentioned BUPA.

They do private work for the money and by me jumping the queue meant that some NHS patient had to wait longer. I doubt if that worried the doctor one little bit.

Doctors who do private work are businessmen. I do not blame them for doing it, I would if I was in their shoes, bur lets accept the fact that by doing private work, they become like an other businessman with cash as the objective.

That is the unpaletable truth whether you like it or not.

Regards

Mick

Mick

It is true that being insured will get you seen more quickly; but this is because you are treated PRIVATELY, not because your insurance money speeds your journey through the NHS. It is emphatically NOT true that this leads to NHS patients having their treatment delayed. Consultants are contracted to work a certain number of hours for the NHS - and in fact most of them work many more hours than their contract. Any private work is done in their OWN time, and does not detract from their NHS work.

Although GPs do little private work, there are some things that attract payment, like insurance reports and medicals, travel immunisations etc. At Mrs CP's practice, as at others, this private work is done in time not taken up by NHS work. You can't win, though, a patient is writing to complain to the health authority about "the sorry state of the NHS" because he wanted his travel jabs done at short notice, could not accept the offered appointment because he was working, and wanted to be seen in the nurse's NHS clinic, which the practice was not willing to allow.

Private work does have a "business" element, but that does not mean that the hippocratic oath goes out the window when the patient pays. Not only would the vast majority of doctors have higher ethical standards than to allow this to happen, but their various watch-dogs would come down very hard on anyone who let their medical decisions be coloured by financial concerns.

quote:

me jumping the queue meant that some NHS patient had to wait longer. I doubt if that worried the doctor one little bit.

Clearly (if it were true) it wouldn't bother you one little bit either, so perhaps its just as well that the NHS tries to prioritise patients according to medical need, rather than how loudly they complain, or how big their cheque books are.

Regards
Clive

Cunningplan

If private medicine was abolished, patients would be treated on a system of first come first served linked to urgency and need etc.

When a private patient comes along, he jumps right to the top of the queue. The same doctor/surgeon is doing the work, so common sense shows that the private patient is getting treated ahead of the queue. I went from a two year waiting list down to 10 days. Therefore those who were ahead of me, went behind me.

The doctors do it for the money.

I do not blame them, but lets stop this stupid habit of saying everyone who enters medicine is some sort of angel.

Regards

Mick.......who happily jumped the queue with the assistance of a money grabbing surgeon.

Mick

This is Mrs CP, frustrated into joining this thread.

This is terribly, terribly simple. You just don't get it.

You went from one queue (the NHS) to another queue (the private one). Your absence from the NHS queue does not mean that it got longer (in fact, one could argue that it got shorter!).

If the private queue didn't exist, the surgeon would not have been operating on his NHS patients instead, he would have been off work. Even if his extra time was paid for by the NHS, it would not create extra operating theatres, nursing staff or beds that could have been used for NHS patients.

Money is part of the reward for any job, but anyone who goes into medicine just for the money has seriously misjudged it (or never heard of law or stockbroking...!) Its not about angels, but its not all about greed either.

Mrs CP (who has some angelic qualities but suffering fools is not one of them......)

PS If you still don't get it, lets leave it here.

I thought that it might be appropriate to quote from "The Welfare State We're In" by James Bartholomew. This refers to the life of one particular consultant but his mode of working was quite typical for the time.

The Life of a Consultant Before the NHS

Frederick Nattras qualified as a doctor in 1914 and had to go off to war straightaway. He was made a prisoner and only returned to Britain in 1919. At first he had difficulty finding a position, so he coached students to earn money. At last, he got a job as assistant physician at the Royal Victoria Infirmary in Newcastle, where he stayed for many years, eventually becoming a consultant neurologist.

His daughter, Anne Whittingham, recalls his routine:

"He went to work at the hospital in the morning. All for free. It was a charity. Then, to get an income he took private patients at our home between two and five in the afternoon. This wasn't unusual at all. Al his friends did it. All consultants did."

Frederick Nattras went on to become a professor and, amongst many other things, founded the Muscular Dystrophy Group.

It's a commonly held myth that poor people had little or no medical provision before the NHS. This is very far from the truth. In fact it was quite normal for consultants to work for a large proportion of each day without charge.

We can't go back but it must be possible to go forward to a health system that is far better than the one we have today.

Incidentally, for anyone interested in the history of our Welfare State, together with a stunning but controversial critique, I can thoroughly recommend The Welfare State We're In by James Bartholomew. Absolutely fascinating.

Regards
Steve M