Treating Muscle Ailments

I suffered from constant backache during the time my daughter was in a cot and I would lean over to pick her up. Now my little boy is a toddler, I am having the same again all over.
Carrying children with one arm, say over one hip, makes you walk lop-sided. This is going to make your back hurt too.
Be mindful of what you are doing and try to avoid the obvious lifting hazards. Easier said than done, I know, but once aware etc.
Good luck Mike.

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Originally posted by Ross Blackman:
Mike, have you tried just going to a gym and doing a basic routine of strengthening exercises for the major muscle groups, focussing especially on the abs and lower back muscles? Strong abs and lower back muscles can be the solution to a lot of back pain and related issues. It could also be that the pain you experience in your delts results from overcompensating for weaknesses elsewhere.

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I do a 15-20 routine pretty much daily, involving push-ups, sit-ups, various exercises with 15-pound dumbbells (including ones for the lower back), etc. These were recommended by my chiropractor, so I'm pretty sure that I'm on the right track in that regard.

Perhaps I could do more, but I'm the first to admit that I would rather live with the pain that go to the gym. Any exercise that I do must be quick, fun, and/or inevitable. The weights are quick, and I set them right beside my bed so they're "inevitable". I have a dog, so walking is inevitable. I have a baby boy, so eventually sports will probably be inevitable (and possibly even fun ).

Going to the gym is not quick, fun or inevitable. It's a boring hassle, and that doesn't float my boat.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Originally posted by Rasher:
I suffered from constant backache during the time my daughter was in a cot and I would lean over to pick her up. Now my little boy is a toddler, I am having the same again all over.
Carrying children with one arm, say over one hip, makes you walk lop-sided. This is going to make your back hurt too.
Be mindful of what you are doing and try to avoid the obvious lifting hazards. Easier said than done, I know, but once aware etc.
Good luck Mike.

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Yes, carrying the kid can be done for only a few minutes at a time, until it becomes unbearably painful. However, the problem appeared months before the recent arrival of my child.

As to being aware of my physical actions, I tend to be exceedingly self-aware. In fact, my chiropractor often comments that I'm a master at self-analysis and diagnosis. This makes my current challenge doubly frustrating, because I haven't yet discerned a solution.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Mike

Can't help you on the back, but the left shoulder sounds suspiciously like a rotator cuff problem. I've had that problem for years from doing push ups. Do a Google search on rotator cuff and check out the symptoms.

Clay

Hi Mike,

I have a pinched nerve in my neck which has utterly debilitated me for the past six months and is preventing my taking the VPD physical.
I realise a pinched nerve and muscle pain are wholly different, but maybe you can glean something from my experience.

I've found a combination of physiotherapy, acupuncture and light gym work to be working slowly but surely. The healing is very slow and seems to come in "plateaus".

You might want to look into physiotherapy; it's more about conditioning the affected areas rather than manipulating them.

People I've talked to have likewise mentioned that chiropractic methods were more pain-relief and not totally curative.
I haven't tried it myself.

There are two different schools of acupuncture-traditional and modern. I've noticed that Traditional is rather painful and concentrates more on releasing negative energy, whereas Modern tends to relax and sooth.
I suppose the better option depends on the individual.

I've been seeing a homeopath- He says many of my niggling health problems can be traced to yeast in the body. While his recommendations for my pinched nerve haven't helped, the salmon oil and acidophilus have done absolute wonders for knee-joint pain from running.

Lastly, all these practioners are like car mechanics. There's good ones and clueless ones. Unfortunately, I was seeing a clueless one for the first crucial month.
I totally understand your frustration, Mike. This pinched nerve is preventing me from launching my career realising my dream; it gets more and more frustrating with every month as I mentioned, the healing is very slow.
Best of luck, man!

PS Ross-
I will have to pick your brain about running when I get back from asia...
Your gym features stunning young women? I clearly need a new gym!

[This message was edited by Mike Sae on Wed 14 April 2004 at 4:28.]

Ross may well have a point.

I have "suffered" from pains in my calf muscles for the last twelve months. Nothing too serious but irritating never the less.

I retired two weeks ago and made a committment to cycle to a local gym 3 times a week. There is a machine in the gym to strengthen calf muscles, so I have been using it. The pain has gone.

Also my back is much better due to me using a back muscle building machine, so why not give it a try. I will grant you it is boring but it is better than allowing the condition to go untreated.

Regards

Mick

I subscribe to a website www.stadion.com
The chap who runs it is very good and might be able to offer some advice on your condition.
Sounds like a nerve thing to me.

I went to a chiro for my back and I would never go to one again. I found I was going back (no pun) a lot. I've been to a cranial osteopath and found their techniques very good. Everybody is different though.

I would agree with everyone about the gym, Mike.
Sorry pal, get your arse to one now boy!!!
You should have sufficient strength to deadlift your own bodyweight 10x before your back is in a state of fitness. Believe me, deadlifting 80 odd KG is hard work and a good indicator of your fitness.

I would, before anything else, check out an applied kinesiologist. They are spookily good at finding out stuff about your body.
I'll lay odds that the problem is NOT in the area but is somewhere else in the nervous system.

Luck mate

Joe90

I found that a visit to a physio and some sports massage helped when I got recurring neck pain. The physio gave me a bunch of exercises to do, and these have kept me pain free.

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Originally posted by Clay Bingham:
Can't help you on the back, but the left shoulder sounds suspiciously like a rotator cuff problem. I've had that problem for years from doing push ups. Do a Google search on rotator cuff and check out the symptoms.

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Thanks, I'll look into it.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Originally posted by Ross Blackman:

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I would rather live with the pain that go to the gym

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It's funny, I know people who have this attitude and will spend thousands and thousands of dollars and countless hours on doctors and "alternative" remedies to try to fix their back pain, yet who would rather remain in more or less permanent agony than spend a couple of hours a week in a gym. I actually enjoy the gym, I like seeing the results (both obvious and less obvious) and I don't mind watching the stunning young women who train there either. But, hey, it's your choice.

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I already am lifting weights in a manner prescribed by my doctor. However, I do this at home and not at the gym. It's faster, more convenient, and therefore more likely to occur consistently. If I tried to do it at the gym instead (which I have attempted to begin a number of times), history has proven that I would lag after a few weeks, and then I wouldn't be working out with weights at all. That certainly isn't going to solve my problem.

Regarding the cost, the gym would cost about $500US per annum, and it isn't covered by my health insurance. However, most of the medical approaches are. Therefore, the gym is actually more expensive. Also, if the gym seems to help, then I'm forced to pay that expense for the rest of my life. However, if it were an ailment that can be "permanently" cured then the medical approach would be paid only once.

This is all hypothetical, of course, without knowing the actual cause of my affliction(s). If it's actually a repetitive strain injury (perhaps the rotator cuff due to too many push-ups, as Clay suggests), then the gym may even make it worse. Before self-prescribing more exercise, I would prefer to get some more medical advice.

As to ogling beautiful women, I can always turn to the Internet for that.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Originally posted by Mike Sae:
I've found a combination of physiotherapy, acupuncture and light gym work to be working slowly but surely. The healing is very slow and seems to come in "plateaus".

You might want to look into physiotherapy; it's more about conditioning the affected areas rather than manipulating them.

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This is interesting. I've got a few other things to discuss with my GP, so I'll ask about this as well.

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People I've talked to have likewise mentioned that chiropractic methods were more pain-relief and not totally curative.
I haven't tried it myself.

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The philosophy of chiropractic care is interesting. Chiropractors generally attempt to ease the body into a "normal" state, with the belief that it wants to be there. If it's a joint out of place, then they coax it back towards its normal position, with the hope that it will stay there. If it's a muscle spasm pulling things out of position, then they attempt to alleviate the tension (through pressure point treatment or skeletal adjustments), so that your body can slip back to its proper state.

It really seems to be more about helping the body help itself, rather that aggressively treating things directly. (This is a generalization, of course.) As such, chiropractic care can certainly alleviate pain, but if the pain is occurring due to a continuing, external scenario, then that pain will likely reoccur. It's important not only to treat the symptom, but also to determine what caused it in the first place.

Some causes are easily discerned and "cured". For example, I have flat feet, which used to cause constant discomfort in my ankles, calves and knees, and would generally cause havoc in the rest of my body. I'm wearing Orthotic arch supports now, and those adverse symptoms are basically eradicated.

I'll continue to see my chiropractor, at least for the time being. He's very well respected here in the Toronto community, is/was heavily involved in the Toronto college, almost finished his naturopathy degree, but ended up with a Masters in nutritional biology instead. He does a whole lot more than a "normal" chiropractor, and is generally a great source of sage wisdom.

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There are two different schools of acupuncture-traditional and modern. I've noticed that Traditional is rather painful and concentrates more on releasing negative energy, whereas Modern tends to relax and sooth.
I suppose the better option depends on the individual.

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I'll do a bit more investigation before going this route. Acupuncture seems to be a similar approach to pressure point treatment, which my chiropractor is already doing. I not saying that they are interchangeable, but rather that I'm currently more inclined to find distinct alternatives to my current approach, and not slight variations. Of course, as I learn more about acupuncture, there's a good chance that I'll revise my synopsis.

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I've been seeing a homeopath- He says many of my niggling health problems can be traced to yeast in the body. While his recommendations for my pinched nerve haven't helped, the salmon oil and acidophilus have done absolute wonders for knee-joint pain from running.

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I've generally heard really good things about fish oil, so I may add that to my daily intake of supplements. (I'm currently taking a multivitamin, ginseng, and gingko biloba.) As to acidophilus, I'll have to find out more about that.

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Lastly, all these practioners are like car mechanics. There's good ones and clueless ones. Unfortunately, I was seeing a clueless one for the first crucial month.
I totally understand your frustration, Mike. This pinched nerve is preventing me from launching my career realising my dream; it gets more and more frustrating with every month as I mentioned, the healing is very slow.
Best of luck, man!

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Understood, and thanks. Good luck with your own "treatment".

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Ross may well have a point.

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He certainly does, and I agree with it: lifting weights is good for you. However, I've not been convinced that needs to happen in a gym. Speaking of that...

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my back is much better due to me using a back muscle building machine

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What does this thing look like? Can its benefits be had using free weights (or no weights)?

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Originally posted by joe90:
I subscribe to a website http://www.stadion.com
The chap who runs it is very good and might be able to offer some advice on your condition.
Sounds like a nerve thing to me.

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I suspect that the shoulder thing is a nerve problem. As to the back spasm, that's morely likely RSI, perhaps due to the perpetually extended position of arms at my desk. I'll check out that site.

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I went to a chiro for my back and I would never go to one again. I found I was going back (no pun) a lot.

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See my thoughts on chriopractic care in my response to Mike S.

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I've been to a cranial osteopath and found their techniques very good. Everybody is different though.

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I'm somewhat familiar with cranial sacral treatment, but I suspect that it's a very different thing.

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I would agree with everyone about the gym, Mike. Sorry pal, get your arse to one now boy!!!

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Everyone needs to realize that if I can't continue the regimen (due to my own psychological quirks), then a gym is not a viable solution. Pure willpower will not make me do something that I'm disinclined to do. As I mentioned earlier, it has to be quick, fun and/or inevitable.

• I don't have much time to spare in my day (especially not with my new child), and going to the gym would take too much of it. I spend 30-60 minutes each day walking the dog, which already bites too deeply into my schedule.
  
• If it's not pleasurable (and hauling my ass to the gym, getting changed [twice!], and doing 30-60 minutes of mindless repetitions in the gym is not), then I'm not likely to do it on a continual basis. My current weight-lifting regimen involves 15-30 reps in about 10 different positions, with 10-15 pound dumbbells. Add 30 push-ups and about 30 "complex" sit-ups, and I'm done in 15-30 minutes. While I'm doing this, I'm talking with my son, counting for him in various languages, etc. It's works very well for me.
  
• As to the inevitability, if it's not in my face, then I'm likely to disregard it. Having the free weights just under my side of the bed continuously reminds me to do the workout.
  

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You should have sufficient strength to deadlift your own bodyweight 10x before your back is in a state of fitness. Believe me, deadlifting 80 odd KG is hard work and a good indicator of your fitness.

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I doubt that I could do that right now. I usually do inclined push-ups, with my feet about 3-feet off the floor. Part of my routine also involves 15 reps of lifting my body, while suspended between the kitchen counter and island. I'll have to try the deadlift thing sometime, to see how well I do.

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I would, before anything else, check out an applied kinesiologist. They are spookily good at finding out stuff about your body.

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I've been wondering about kinesiologists, so I'll definitely look into that.

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I'll lay odds that the problem is NOT in the area but is somewhere else in the nervous system.

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I tend to agree with you. Thanks for your advice.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Mike,

diagnosis and prescription over the net is, at very best, like recommending speakers to someone whose system and room acoustics you don't know and who has a completely different taste in music! Exercise prescription is no different and needs to be done after a proper physical assessment, the home demonstration to stretch the analogy well past it's breaking point. You do appear to have a problem that's at least partially mechanical in nature in that it is repeatably aggravated and (temporarily) eased by specific movements or postures. A mechanical type of treatment would therefore seem a logical approach. If your Chiropractor is only giving you temporary relief, then a consultation with the specialists in mechanical-movement related disorders and therapeutic exercise prescription would seem sensible. I'm talking about a Physiotherapist. Exercise need not involve going to the gym if that's not your thing. If you're already motivated enough to your own basic programme at home I'd have thought you'd be an ideal candidate.

(As a Physio. I'm interested in why this is not amongst your possible vote choices!)

duncan

Email: djcritchley at hotmail.com

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Originally posted by djc:
diagnosis and prescription over the net is, at very best, like recommending speakers to someone whose system and room acoustics you don't know and who has a completely different taste in music! Exercise prescription is no different and needs to be done after a proper physical assessment, the home demonstration to stretch the analogy well past it's breaking point.

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Don’t worry, as I'm not looking for a final word on a cure here, but merely suggestions, personal experience, etc. I'll take it all with a big block of salt, do a bit more research, and then apply one or more of the proffered techniques.

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You do appear to have a problem that's at least partially mechanical in nature in that it is repeatably aggravated and (temporarily) eased by specific movements or postures. A mechanical type of treatment would therefore seem a logical approach. If your Chiropractor is only giving you temporary relief, then a consultation with the specialists in mechanical-movement related disorders and therapeutic exercise prescription would seem sensible. I'm talking about a Physiotherapist. Exercise need not involve going to the gym if that's not your thing. If you're already motivated enough to your own basic programme at home I'd have thought you'd be an ideal candidate.

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Due to the various responses above, I'm most definitely considering that approach.

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(As a Physio. I'm interested in why this is not amongst your possible vote choices!)

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That's an interesting question. I've no idea why, but I remember that, as a child, I didn't have much respect for the concept of physiotherapy. I hadn't had a personal experience with it, nor was I acquainted with anyone who had. I can remember thinking that physiotherapy "treatments" didn't seem to treat anything; they were merely basic exercises that should be obvious to anyone. I now know that this was a misconception, but I guess the preconception hasn't fully dislodged itself from my psyche.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Originally posted by Vuk's son:
I've consulted some people like you do and they pointed me to the Feldenkrais method.

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This sounds very interesting. As I briefly mentioned in my first message, the back spasm problem can be temporarily alleviated by a stretching exercise that seems to "reset" the muscle groups. I've never heard of this technique of yours, and I'll definitely look into it.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

You asked

quote:
my back is much better due to me using a back muscle building machine


What does this thing look like? Can its benefits be had using free weights (or no weights)?

Think of it as an armchair with the backrest being able to swing backwards.

You push your back against the backrest which is hinged at the base. Therefore you are pushing yourself backwards and building up the muscle.

Regards

Mick

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Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Think of it as an armchair with the backrest being able to swing backwards.

You push your back against the backrest which is hinged at the base. Therefore you are pushing yourself backwards and building up the muscle.

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I wonder how this is different than bending at the waist while holding weights, and then straightening up? I suppose it might better focus on the specific muscle groups.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Mike.

Initially I thought that "more whisky" might be a good start; however that appears not to be what is required.

I notice that no one has suggested a new bed, and if you are inclined, perhaps a Tempurpedic pillow. You can get them at the Back Shop on Eglington off of Avenue. Or in the Manulife Center at Goeblins. It might be worth a try.

I have an ongoing back issue and have used a combo of weights, physio (chiropracter) and massage. My recommendation would be to hire a personal trainer that specializes in sports injuries to create a program that you can do at home or in the gym; and to monitor your progress. I think you will find that a good program can be supplimented with massage and physio to really get you on track and relatively pain free.

tw

Mike,

Just a few quick suggestions:

1. Are you more stressed than before? Is this a chronic or acute condition?

You need to relieve some of this stress. Yeah I know that's a sad and quick response, but it's the truth. Everyone relieves stress in different ways and one method may not work for another.

2. Chiropractors

In general, I don't think your problem will be helped by their type of treatments so I would suggest to stop wasting your money here.

3. How's your diet? Are you hydrated enough?

Vitamins are great but there's no substitute for the real thing. Eat properly and that includes adding more fish to your diet instead of taking fish oil pills. Oh, and there's recommendations to what fish you should eat for what you are wanting to supplement. For example, I believe it's shark for the joints but salmon for the heart.

4. Water therapy?

Have you tried swimming or jacuzzi/hottubs etc? Easy, cheap and remarkably effective.

5. Exercising

I'm not such a fan of working out until you drop dead. There's a limit and clearly someone like yourself might actually do more harm than good.

6. Posture

Here's a big one. I know you are a computer person and so you are already at high risk for bad posture and repetitive damage syndromes. Having a new child in the family requires a whole different set of movements which most people are not familiar with.

7. Neurology

Have you had any consultants with a neurologist/neurosurgeon? It might help to narrow down the list of potential problems. EMG and CTs come to mind here. Unfortunately the Ontario medical system is in shambles and this might take a while!

Sorry if I've repeated someone else's suggestions, I just had time to skim the responses. Hope you find a solution soon.

[This message was edited by Arun Mehan on Wed 14 April 2004 at 18:40.]

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Originally posted by Tristram:
I notice that no one has suggested a new bed, and if you are inclined, perhaps a Tempurpedic pillow. You can get them at the Back Shop on Eglington off of Avenue. Or in the Manulife Center at Goeblins. It might be worth a try.

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I actually spotted that other thread, and posted a message there. I've got an early version of the tempurpedic pillow. It's got that strange foam that is slow to compress and expand, and there's also a bit of "batting" on top to help it breath better. The pillows are getting quite old now, though, and I've been thinking of replacing them. However, I like the one I have more than the current tempurpedic one, so I'm waffling.

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I have an ongoing back issue and have used a combo of weights, physio (chiropracter) and massage. My recommendation would be to hire a personal trainer that specializes in sports injuries to create a program that you can do at home or in the gym; and to monitor your progress. I think you will find that a good program can be supplimented with massage and physio to really get you on track and relatively pain free.

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I've already got a good chiropractor, who does manage to keep the problem from getting too extreme, I would rather it go away altogether (if at all possible). I may be too optimistic though, when I should be fatalistic.

I'm currently leaning towards finding a physiotherapist and/or kineseologist. I may also go to a trial Feldenkrais class, although the person running our pre-natal class was really into it (I had forgotten that until I mentioned Feldendkrais to my wife this morning), and most of the exercises she showed us didn't match my perspective in life. I don't know how much that she was doing was actually Feldenkrais, though, so I'll give it a try before passing "final" judgement.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Originally posted by Arun Mehan:
1. Are you more stressed than before? Is this a chronic or acute condition?

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Yes and no. Yes, because I've got a new baby, I'm a little freaked about the state of the world, etc. However, I'm not generally the type that exhibits stress reactions. I did about twenty years ago, but I attended a stress management course, and ever since then I've dealt with it without too much difficulty.

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You need to relieve some of this stress. Yeah I know that's a sad and quick response, but it's the truth. Everyone relieves stress in different ways and one method may not work for another.

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I leanred from that course that there are basically three "treatments" for stress: eliminate the stressors (obviously), get more emotional support (family, friends, religion), and/or change your stress reaction (via constructive self-talk, purposeful relaxation, etc.). I apply all of these to some degree.

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2. Chiropractors

In general, I don't think your problem will be helped by their type of treatments so I would suggest to stop wasting your money here.

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I've basically come to that conclusion, which is why I'm forging off on new directions now.

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3. How's your diet? Are you hydrated enough?

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Yes, I drink at least 10-15 cups of water a day, plus juices, etc.

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Vitamins are great but there's no substitute for the real thing. Eat properly and that includes adding more fish to your diet instead of taking fish oil pills. Oh, and there's recommendations to what fish you should eat for what you are wanting to supplement. For example, I believe it's shark for the joints but salmon for the heart.

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I eat salmon, tuna or sardines once or twice a week. I also eat some type of whitefish each week too, although there really aren't many health benefits from that. I don't generally eat shark, although I may start. Overall, my diet is very good.

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4. Water therapy?

Have you tried swimming or jacuzzi/hottubs etc? Easy, cheap and remarkably effective.

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I've got a big jacuzzi tub in my house, so I'll try using it more often. I'm generally a fan of showers, so I tend to use it only once a month or so. Regarding swimming, I love it, but public pools are rather inconvient and frustrating. I may investigate this, though.

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5. Exercising

I'm not such a fan of working out until you drop dead. There's a limit and clearly someone like yourself might actually do more harm than good.

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I'm currently in better shape than I've been in my entire life. I feel great, with the except of these aches and pains.

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6. Posture

Here's a big one. I know you are a computer person and so you are already at high risk for bad posture and repetitive damage syndromes. Having a new child in the family requires a whole different set of movements which most people are not familiar with.

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I've been working on the computer desk problem. My keyboard is probably a bit high, and it's too far away from me. (I rest my forearms on the desk while typing.) Also, I fidget a bit in my chair, often crossing and uncrossing my legs. Generally my shoulders are rounded. I've often considered that this is the root of my upper back problem, but tweaking the position of things didn't have much of an impact (yet).

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7. Neurology

Have you had any consultants with a neurologist/neurosurgeon? It might help to narrow down the list of potential problems. EMG and CTs come to mind here. Unfortunately the Ontario medical system is in shambles and this might take a while!

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Yes, that's not really something that I can "order up", without going down to the States and spending mega-bucks.

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Sorry if I've repeated someone else's suggestions, I just had time to skim the responses. Hope you find a solution soon.

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Thanks. You haven't really overlapped too much, and I've got a few more ideas now.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

Ross is correct.

I would suggest going to a good gym and using the correct equipment to build the appropriate muscles.

I joined a gym 2 1/2 months ago and was surprised how many different machines there are to bulid individual muscles. Front and rear deltoids are built up by using different lifting apparatus, for example.

You should also swim. I started at the gym and I struggled to achieve 2 consecutive lengths (front crawl). Now I do 60 and I only stop because I want to do a 4 mile run on the treadmill. I feel looser and my boby is building up. If you swim you will also increase the chances of relieving any trapped nerves.

You should not build up the same muscle on consecutive days. You need to rest the said muscle after activity.

Most physios are a waste of time.

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Originally posted by Mike Hanson:

As I mentioned earlier, it has to be quick, fun and/or inevitable.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Mike

Morphine.

You are too lazy to take any other option.

Regards

Mike

Spending money I don't have on things I don't need.

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Originally posted by Mike Hanson:
That's an interesting question. I've no idea why, but I remember that, as a child, I didn't have much respect for the concept of physiotherapy. I hadn't had a personal experience with it, nor was I acquainted with anyone who had. I can remember thinking that physiotherapy "treatments" didn't seem to treat anything; they were merely basic exercises that should be obvious to anyone. I now know that this was a misconception, but I guess the preconception hasn't fully dislodged itself from my psyche.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

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Mike,

thanks for taking the time to answer my question. My line of research is into exercise for people with back problems. The question whether exercises need to be specific and prescribed according to an individual's needs or should be simple and general is actually quite a thorny one. I think I've made my views fairly clear but I'm always interested in other people's perceptions of this issue.

duncan

Email: djcritchley at hotmail.com