New Riders cleared for take off in Farnborough – another 250 crashes and burns
Posted by: David Hobbs-Mallyon on 30 March 2004
Following Tom Alves’ move northwards it was time for the New Riders to get on the road to hear some new tunes. After a kind invitation from Seagull, first stop was to be to this forum’s most popular tourist attraction, and symbol of paradise, Eden Project II in deepest Farnborough.
Somehow, I’d got it into my head that Seagull, was based in Brighton, so the only downside to the day, was me having to trudge my normal 75 mile M25/M3 commute route on a Saturday. Fortunately, Mr Lees came to the rescue, and volunteered to do the driving. The upside of this was apparent when we arrived as Seagull had laid on an excellent selection of beer and wine. So cracking open a bottle of Summer Lightning, I headed for the Eden Project II.
Already arrived, Dave J and Alex S had settled in nicely, both looking very pleased with themselves, the former currently in 52 upgrade euphoria, the latter from having picked his jaw off the floor after consigning the Smashy Pods to the scrap heap and acquiring a pair of Neat Ultimatums. Arriving at various other times were Malcolm Davey, Alex Gerrard and Mike Lacey – fortunately the EPII was more than capable of accommodating such a crowd. I’d guess it measures something like 30ft, by 9 or 10 ft wide – probably not the ideal geometry for a listening room, but good for a party.
Seagulls’ system resides in the room next door to EPII – it consists of
Sources: Two sources – for vinyl - LP12/Valhalla/Ittok lv2/Goldring 1042, and for CD - CD5/HiCap.
Amplification: The classic combination of 72/HiCap/250
Speakers: Kef Q5 speakers – usually placed in the adjacent room, but moved into the EPII for the day
Stands: Sound Organisation for the LP12, and Quadraspire for the rest.
Cables/Mains – Standard Naim Interconnects, NAC A5. Separate spurs for equipment.
On to some initial listening at reasonable levels, first impressions were of the room. I guess I expected that a large glass house was going to be a very bright listening environment – personally I didn’t find this to be the case. It seems to me that rooms are the most unpredictable element in the chain, and certainly one of those fundamental things that it’s worth getting right. Anyway, on the whole, apart from what sounded like the odd room resonance at the bottom end the room seemed fine, and certainly a nice place to be listening to music.
On to the sound of the system – well for me this is a classic Naim system combination. I lived with 72/HiCap/250 for a long time, and it’s one of the most enjoyable systems, excelling on PRaT and dynamics. On the day, the LP12 performed consistently well, which from my limited experience, seems to be reasonably rare. In general, I found the jump from vinyl to the poised presentation of the CD5/Hi to be surprisingly similar sonically, although not as musically engaging. Of the nerdy comparison stuff (which was kept to a minimum), perhaps the biggest difference on the day was between two different Beatles pressings that Mike Lacey brought along – I’m sure someone else will provide more details.
For me personally there’s one element of the system that I personally didn’t much care for and that was the Kef Q5 speakers. I’ve never been much of a fan of Kefs, and the Q5s sounded a bit woolly to me, robbing some of the music of detail and subtlety. On the day this was exemplified by George Crumb’s ‘Black Angels’ which is undoubtedly in the ‘musically challenging’ category. I thought the Kef’s made this pretty hard work, which led to a stampede for the door for a fag break outside, even for the non smokers. OK, it’s that or my musical taste is suspect.
As is fairly usual for these events, as the day progressed, the volume started to creep up, and for whatever reason the 250 decided to surrender. In the nerve-wracking moments whilst the 250 cooled down, a 140 was put into the system. It has to be said, the 140 coped pretty well, whilst not having the power, control and headroom of the 250 it more than matched it for sparkle. As the volume started to go up further, the 140 started to show it’s limitations, and the 250 was brought back into service. It’s usually at this point that a system gets the Rammstein treatment. Unfortunately, everyone thought that someone else was bringing a copy. Fortunately, Alex Gerrard came to the rescue with a Deftones track that matched the Rammstein for general brutality – good stuff, and straight on to the required purchase list. From some of the looks of shock around the room, I think it’s fair to say the system gave an excellent rendition.
Summing up, I think Seagull has the makings of an excellent system – if I’d change one thing it would be the speakers. If it was my choice, I would want a pair of speakers that worked in the Eden Project, rather than the adjacent room – certainly a nice place to be sitting listening to music.
I’ve also got to say a big thank you to Mrs Seagull – we were promised a few snacks on the day, but a whole table of food was laid on for us which was very much appreciated.
An finally, many thanks to Seagull for the invitation. It was good to meet four other forum members on the day, great fun as ever. My only regret was I had to leave early, as I was picking up a pair of new speakers for demo, but that story will be for another thread.
David
Somehow, I’d got it into my head that Seagull, was based in Brighton, so the only downside to the day, was me having to trudge my normal 75 mile M25/M3 commute route on a Saturday. Fortunately, Mr Lees came to the rescue, and volunteered to do the driving. The upside of this was apparent when we arrived as Seagull had laid on an excellent selection of beer and wine. So cracking open a bottle of Summer Lightning, I headed for the Eden Project II.
Already arrived, Dave J and Alex S had settled in nicely, both looking very pleased with themselves, the former currently in 52 upgrade euphoria, the latter from having picked his jaw off the floor after consigning the Smashy Pods to the scrap heap and acquiring a pair of Neat Ultimatums. Arriving at various other times were Malcolm Davey, Alex Gerrard and Mike Lacey – fortunately the EPII was more than capable of accommodating such a crowd. I’d guess it measures something like 30ft, by 9 or 10 ft wide – probably not the ideal geometry for a listening room, but good for a party.
Seagulls’ system resides in the room next door to EPII – it consists of
Sources: Two sources – for vinyl - LP12/Valhalla/Ittok lv2/Goldring 1042, and for CD - CD5/HiCap.
Amplification: The classic combination of 72/HiCap/250
Speakers: Kef Q5 speakers – usually placed in the adjacent room, but moved into the EPII for the day
Stands: Sound Organisation for the LP12, and Quadraspire for the rest.
Cables/Mains – Standard Naim Interconnects, NAC A5. Separate spurs for equipment.
On to some initial listening at reasonable levels, first impressions were of the room. I guess I expected that a large glass house was going to be a very bright listening environment – personally I didn’t find this to be the case. It seems to me that rooms are the most unpredictable element in the chain, and certainly one of those fundamental things that it’s worth getting right. Anyway, on the whole, apart from what sounded like the odd room resonance at the bottom end the room seemed fine, and certainly a nice place to be listening to music.
On to the sound of the system – well for me this is a classic Naim system combination. I lived with 72/HiCap/250 for a long time, and it’s one of the most enjoyable systems, excelling on PRaT and dynamics. On the day, the LP12 performed consistently well, which from my limited experience, seems to be reasonably rare. In general, I found the jump from vinyl to the poised presentation of the CD5/Hi to be surprisingly similar sonically, although not as musically engaging. Of the nerdy comparison stuff (which was kept to a minimum), perhaps the biggest difference on the day was between two different Beatles pressings that Mike Lacey brought along – I’m sure someone else will provide more details.
For me personally there’s one element of the system that I personally didn’t much care for and that was the Kef Q5 speakers. I’ve never been much of a fan of Kefs, and the Q5s sounded a bit woolly to me, robbing some of the music of detail and subtlety. On the day this was exemplified by George Crumb’s ‘Black Angels’ which is undoubtedly in the ‘musically challenging’ category. I thought the Kef’s made this pretty hard work, which led to a stampede for the door for a fag break outside, even for the non smokers. OK, it’s that or my musical taste is suspect.
As is fairly usual for these events, as the day progressed, the volume started to creep up, and for whatever reason the 250 decided to surrender. In the nerve-wracking moments whilst the 250 cooled down, a 140 was put into the system. It has to be said, the 140 coped pretty well, whilst not having the power, control and headroom of the 250 it more than matched it for sparkle. As the volume started to go up further, the 140 started to show it’s limitations, and the 250 was brought back into service. It’s usually at this point that a system gets the Rammstein treatment. Unfortunately, everyone thought that someone else was bringing a copy. Fortunately, Alex Gerrard came to the rescue with a Deftones track that matched the Rammstein for general brutality – good stuff, and straight on to the required purchase list. From some of the looks of shock around the room, I think it’s fair to say the system gave an excellent rendition.
Summing up, I think Seagull has the makings of an excellent system – if I’d change one thing it would be the speakers. If it was my choice, I would want a pair of speakers that worked in the Eden Project, rather than the adjacent room – certainly a nice place to be sitting listening to music.
I’ve also got to say a big thank you to Mrs Seagull – we were promised a few snacks on the day, but a whole table of food was laid on for us which was very much appreciated.
An finally, many thanks to Seagull for the invitation. It was good to meet four other forum members on the day, great fun as ever. My only regret was I had to leave early, as I was picking up a pair of new speakers for demo, but that story will be for another thread.
David
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Lees:
__The Playlist__
_Me_
Jellyfish – “Spilt Milk” – Glutton Of Sympathy
_Could have picked any of the marvellous tunes off this magnificently underrated album – sort of Queen-meets-the-Beach Boys with the intelligence and humour of XTC thrown in as a trace element. System did this well – especially the glorious harmonies. Not that anyone was listening of course._
Cool. Someone listen to Jellyfish!
Indeed they are underated. I love 'Spilt Milk'.
First of all thanks to everyone for coming, it was a very good afternoon and it was a pleasure to have met you all at last. I would thoroughly recommend 'The Riders Experience' to anyone who hates their neighbours. The original invitation was made to Tom last May but subject to the Eden Project being completed. This took a lot longer than originally planned and Tom had moved to Scotland before we were ready to host The Riders which was a pity because I would have liked to have met Mr Alves.
Dave J and Alex S arrived earlier than expected so we weren't quite ready - the snacks hadn't been distributed and Mrs S was flapping, she was about to take Miss S to a birthday party. Nick and David H-M also turned up early. Nick seemed pleased with himself that he had found the right house - I suspect it was only because Dave's car was parked outside.
The Eden Project was conceived as a very flexible family space (its external measurements are 8.8 m by 4.5m). It normally houses the dining area, a play area for Miss Seagull and a sitting area arranged around the TV in the corner. This was the first time we had used it for one of its alternative uses, i.e. as a party zone. The seating was arranged waiting room style around the perimeter at the end (not shown in Nick's photos - yet).
My sistem
It had remained relatively untouched for many years until the introduction of the CD5. The last two years have also seen the 110 morph into a 140 and later replaced by a 250. My 42 has been retired and replaced by a 72/Hicap and another hi-cap has been added for the CD5. The LP12 was recently serviced by the local LP12 guru Colin Macey with a new motor and the original LVX arm replaced with the Tik tok.
140 vs 250
Hmmmm, the 250 did give up the ghost after a while. What surprised me was that it was running for much longer (and louder - up to 2:30) after it was returned to the sistem. Fortunately the 140 hadn't quite made it into the loft so I was able to bring it in as a blood replacement while the 250 cooled down. We would have either had to resort to Mrs S's system or actually talk to each other for a while! I thought that the 140 acquitted itself quite well but was obviously struggling when cranked up to Rider volume levels. I have only had the 250 for a couple of weeks - it is older than it looks, it had a face lift and a service about 4 years ago so it should be ok, we'll just see how it behaves in the near future. The (chrome bumpered) 140 began life as a 110 but was promoted to a 140 in 2002 so was in reasonable nick but was cold. The return of the 250 showed the difference though, there was much more control to the sound.
In defence of the Q5s
I had never tried the speakers in the Eden Project before. I was not sure how the room would affect the sound, all those hard surfaces and strange angles and the amount of glass and the plastic roofing. I was a little nervous about how they would sound but was pleasantly surprised. This is the third room in the house they have been tried in and they seemed to work reasonably well. There was nothing scientific about their placement, I was more concerned about ensuring that the NACA5 wasn't a trip hazard and the speakers themselves fitted conveniently on a single floor tile (see Nick's picture).
They are not SBL's or Neats but they do a reasonable job of playing 70s and 80s rock music (my main diet) and have benefited from every upgrade I have made upstream since I bought them. They sound a lot better in their natural habitat in my 'Den' and at more sociable volumes than they were generating on Saturday (not that I play music that quietly but they have a lot less air to shift).
I know that they are the weak link in the sistem, but surely that's a good thing, source first and all that. They will probably be the next major thing to be replaced. They will then be available for use either as an AV sistem (with my retired 42/140) in the front room or for seagull junior to have as the basis for his first proper stereo (a damn sight better than my first one at a similar age!)
After thoughts
After the Riders and Alex G departed, the Berkshire Borders Massive members present moved on to some more mainstream tunes. More Porcupine Tree, some band called The Beatles, Pink Floyd, some Sensational Alex Harvey Band and live Wilko Johnson. We stayed on for another hour and a half playing music until the decision was made to retire to the pub. We stopped to inspect the contents of Mike's boot, he did indeed have the said items, well the cardboard boxes anyway. Some fine Tripple FFF and O'Hanlan's beers were then consumed in the peaceful atmosphere of the Local Pub before retuning home to watch England be outplayed by the French.
The next day we spoke to the neighbours who were highly amused that 8 grown men had actually got together for the afternoon to play music at anti-social volumes.
Alex G, at least the Seagulls are still in the play off places
.
The Moment that will live with me forever...
Crumb - Black Angels Departure. If that iswhat is was called...
This was definitely an 'Endurance' moment. Nick and Alex S hastily disappeared for a fag break, soon joined by Dave J who thought it would be a good time to take up smoking. This left Malcolm, Alex G and myself (Mike hadn't arrived at this point) to sit through the most excruciating aural experience any of us had ever had the encountered. I think we were rooted to the spot in utter disbelief at what we were being subjected to. I don't know why but we sat through it to the end. I now know how Ford Prefect and Arthur Dent felt when they had to listen to the Vogon Captain's poetry.
Dave J and Alex S arrived earlier than expected so we weren't quite ready - the snacks hadn't been distributed and Mrs S was flapping, she was about to take Miss S to a birthday party. Nick and David H-M also turned up early. Nick seemed pleased with himself that he had found the right house - I suspect it was only because Dave's car was parked outside.
The Eden Project was conceived as a very flexible family space (its external measurements are 8.8 m by 4.5m). It normally houses the dining area, a play area for Miss Seagull and a sitting area arranged around the TV in the corner. This was the first time we had used it for one of its alternative uses, i.e. as a party zone. The seating was arranged waiting room style around the perimeter at the end (not shown in Nick's photos - yet).
My sistem
It had remained relatively untouched for many years until the introduction of the CD5. The last two years have also seen the 110 morph into a 140 and later replaced by a 250. My 42 has been retired and replaced by a 72/Hicap and another hi-cap has been added for the CD5. The LP12 was recently serviced by the local LP12 guru Colin Macey with a new motor and the original LVX arm replaced with the Tik tok.
140 vs 250
Hmmmm, the 250 did give up the ghost after a while. What surprised me was that it was running for much longer (and louder - up to 2:30) after it was returned to the sistem. Fortunately the 140 hadn't quite made it into the loft so I was able to bring it in as a blood replacement while the 250 cooled down. We would have either had to resort to Mrs S's system or actually talk to each other for a while! I thought that the 140 acquitted itself quite well but was obviously struggling when cranked up to Rider volume levels. I have only had the 250 for a couple of weeks - it is older than it looks, it had a face lift and a service about 4 years ago so it should be ok, we'll just see how it behaves in the near future. The (chrome bumpered) 140 began life as a 110 but was promoted to a 140 in 2002 so was in reasonable nick but was cold. The return of the 250 showed the difference though, there was much more control to the sound.
In defence of the Q5s
I had never tried the speakers in the Eden Project before. I was not sure how the room would affect the sound, all those hard surfaces and strange angles and the amount of glass and the plastic roofing. I was a little nervous about how they would sound but was pleasantly surprised. This is the third room in the house they have been tried in and they seemed to work reasonably well. There was nothing scientific about their placement, I was more concerned about ensuring that the NACA5 wasn't a trip hazard and the speakers themselves fitted conveniently on a single floor tile (see Nick's picture).
They are not SBL's or Neats but they do a reasonable job of playing 70s and 80s rock music (my main diet) and have benefited from every upgrade I have made upstream since I bought them. They sound a lot better in their natural habitat in my 'Den' and at more sociable volumes than they were generating on Saturday (not that I play music that quietly but they have a lot less air to shift).
I know that they are the weak link in the sistem, but surely that's a good thing, source first and all that. They will probably be the next major thing to be replaced. They will then be available for use either as an AV sistem (with my retired 42/140) in the front room or for seagull junior to have as the basis for his first proper stereo (a damn sight better than my first one at a similar age!)
After thoughts
After the Riders and Alex G departed, the Berkshire Borders Massive members present moved on to some more mainstream tunes. More Porcupine Tree, some band called The Beatles, Pink Floyd, some Sensational Alex Harvey Band and live Wilko Johnson. We stayed on for another hour and a half playing music until the decision was made to retire to the pub. We stopped to inspect the contents of Mike's boot, he did indeed have the said items, well the cardboard boxes anyway. Some fine Tripple FFF and O'Hanlan's beers were then consumed in the peaceful atmosphere of the Local Pub before retuning home to watch England be outplayed by the French.
The next day we spoke to the neighbours who were highly amused that 8 grown men had actually got together for the afternoon to play music at anti-social volumes.
Alex G, at least the Seagulls are still in the play off places
.The Moment that will live with me forever...
Crumb - Black Angels Departure. If that iswhat is was called...
This was definitely an 'Endurance' moment. Nick and Alex S hastily disappeared for a fag break, soon joined by Dave J who thought it would be a good time to take up smoking. This left Malcolm, Alex G and myself (Mike hadn't arrived at this point) to sit through the most excruciating aural experience any of us had ever had the encountered. I think we were rooted to the spot in utter disbelief at what we were being subjected to. I don't know why but we sat through it to the end. I now know how Ford Prefect and Arthur Dent felt when they had to listen to the Vogon Captain's poetry.
Apologies for being early. I'd taken the route time from AA Routemaster and, given the detour to pick up Alex S, I thought we'd be a little late if anything. I must have found a short cut or two.
When we arrived I confess I thought that the decision to move the speakers into EPII was a brave one however the sound we were treated to was very much better than we could have expected. Seagull's is an extremely well integrated and balanced sistem and is quite simply great fun to listen to. Helped in no small measure, I'm sure, by the dedicated mains feed which has not just given it a weight and dynamism that is all too rare but has also helped clean up treble response and provide bags of detail (nick's OTT sounded particularly good). It would have been interesting to have heard how it sounds in its more usual setting however, the conservatory was fine.
I think it's time to differentiate "Riders' volume levels" from "volume levels during the Rides". My normal listening level is way below what they were on Saturday and I suspect that the 10+ level is a David H-M/Tom Alves thing. It's no surprise then that the 250 decided to have a rest at one point (yes, it happened to me too) although it was odd that it was more robust second time around. As everyone else has said, the 140 put in an excellent performance - obviously entirely down to it's placement on my Audiotech table which I'd lent Seagull.
Many thanks for such extreme hospitality - particularly to Mrs S who prepared a remarkable feast - and it was really good to meet Alex, Malcolm, Mike and, of course, Seagull.
Dave
When we arrived I confess I thought that the decision to move the speakers into EPII was a brave one however the sound we were treated to was very much better than we could have expected. Seagull's is an extremely well integrated and balanced sistem and is quite simply great fun to listen to. Helped in no small measure, I'm sure, by the dedicated mains feed which has not just given it a weight and dynamism that is all too rare but has also helped clean up treble response and provide bags of detail (nick's OTT sounded particularly good). It would have been interesting to have heard how it sounds in its more usual setting however, the conservatory was fine.
I think it's time to differentiate "Riders' volume levels" from "volume levels during the Rides". My normal listening level is way below what they were on Saturday and I suspect that the 10+ level is a David H-M/Tom Alves thing. It's no surprise then that the 250 decided to have a rest at one point (yes, it happened to me too) although it was odd that it was more robust second time around. As everyone else has said, the 140 put in an excellent performance - obviously entirely down to it's placement on my Audiotech table which I'd lent Seagull
.Many thanks for such extreme hospitality - particularly to Mrs S who prepared a remarkable feast - and it was really good to meet Alex, Malcolm, Mike and, of course, Seagull.
Dave