Flatcap/Hicap for CD3.5 vs CDX

I've auditioned the 3.5 with hicap, and found the 3.5 to be much improved with the added PS. At the time, I was listening to the 3.5/HC combo through a Nait3, so it didn't take one of the more advanced pre/power combos to demonstrate the difference.

Note, however, that a 3.5/HC costs nearly as much as a CDX, and the CDX is even better. Plus the CDX will play HDCD.

-PL-

[This message was edited by Patrick Leary on THURSDAY 02 November 2000 at 03:22.]

Edwin,

My current setup is CDX>hicap+nait3>Epos14.I started with a bare 3.5, then added a flat cap, then a hi-cap instead. Every upgrade was an upgrade but in retrospect the hi-cap on the 3.5 was not cost effective.

My Naim dealer persuaded me to trust in the hicap+nait3>Epos14 back end, and encouraged me to upgrade only at the source, until I get to the CDS2.

Following this advice, I traded the Hicap and CD3.5 in on a CDX. The difference is night and day in terms of musicality. For the first time since giving up on vinyl, I really love what I hear from the CD. (I'm not claiming the CDX is vinyl, just damn enjoyable) The 3.5 is pleasing but not quite THERE and power supply upgrades do not change its fundamental character-- They don't get you THERE. The CDX is just a quantum step up and it may be close to being THERE. I highly recommend it. Be patient if you can't afford it.

I also have the CDX leveled on a homebrewed suspension of an inch thick glass base which sits on a very firm inflated innertube. This makes a huge difference in performance.

Good luck,

Eric

(Man, the Hi-capped Nait3 can really boogie for a little guy! I'll never secretly aspire to be a mullet again!)

code:

---

---

code:

---

---

********************************************
I also have the CDX leveled on a homebrewed suspension of an inch thick glass base which sits on a very firm inflated innertube. This makes a huge difference in performance.
********************************************

Can you amplify on this a bit please Eric.
Don't want to hijack the thread so can you e-mail be directly please?

Is this your first effort? Have you tried anything else other than an inner tube? I'm just starting another home build rack project, which, if it fails, I will have to try a 'professional', very expensive rack. Any tips?

Brian

your email address doesn't seem to show up in your profile.

i'll be quick. i tried the glass plate (4mm) blu-tak sandwich as attempt to fully damp the box vibration and this killed the fine dynamics.

then i tried to emmulate mana, just from descriptions. i now suspect i have not mimicked mana at all, but have done something else entirely.

i got two Naim box sized slabs of 1/2 inch glass and stuck them together with a thin film of gooey silicone vaccuum grease to make a 1 inch slab. when this sits on top of a very well inflated bicycle innertube, on the floor, shimmed to level with styrofoam, it does not vibrate detectably at loud volumes when i set my hand on it. thus, it appears to be an isolation platform. i then used large ball bearings as points under the component feet (CDX, Nait3 and hicap). They are placed directly under the cabinet screws.

i know this next step is nuts but it worked. I superglued large washers to the glass to keep the ball bearing feet positioned but not adding any more coupling to the glass surface. Basically, things are sitting on points on this very vibrationless surface but not fixed to it. doing this for the Nait required supergluing the bearings to the bottom of the case (delicately and reversibly) then positioning those points within the fixed washers.

the effects are astonishing to me. the Naim boxes vibrate like crazy from the moving air but they seem to like it that way. fixing them with rubber feet to something more massive,like the glass base, kills the speed and articulation. admittedly, a low-budget hack-job and tweakers nightmare, but it works for me. i set it up for a party on cabinets and it worked there. i suspect you could use this base on any shelving and have the same result. cost is $35 per component for the materials.

when i taught neurophysiology labs in graduate school we used a similar platform to do intracellular recordings with glass microelectrodes. i thought i'd try it on the electronics and see what they'd do. not bad...

sorry to hijack the thread. hope this is helpful...

eric

may i add that my design principle while tweaking the bases/platforms was "can i follow the bass line melody?" when i tuned it for melody, everthing else fell in place. ridicuous as it seems, the air pressure in the innertubes is key. the higher the pressure the better the bass line. go figure...

eric

That's some impressive tooltime Eric!

I find you approach and results particularly interesting as they are much more in line with the basics of physics and acoustics as, dare I say it, Ma..

I am convinced that preventing and/or eliminating vibrations all together is the only right approach contrary to M racks & tables who vibrate and resonate as if their live is depending on it (and call it 'sing along'... ahem...).

Keep us (or me at least) posted on your further developments!

richard,

thanks for the validation. i would love to know if someone else out there on the forum can get the same results. then maybe i could fully appreciate the eargasms i am having..

eric

Edwin

I have a 3.5 and Hi-cap. I auditioned both the flat-cap and high-cap back-to-back through a Nait 3 and some c£1-2K floorstanders (can't remember what - but I remember being impressed.)

The flatcap improved rythmic stuff, slam etc - I I felt it also led to an overly dry / analytical presentation. Sucked all the warmth out. The high-cap did all the good bits and didn't kill the rest of the presentation. I was very disappointed with the 3.5 and flatcap, but I was over the proverbial moon with the results of the hi-cap.

When I bought the 3.5, I was expecting to spend c1K GBP on a source and leave it at that. Having now 'got the bug' big time and heard the CDX (with the benefit of that wonderful hindsight tool) I should have just bought the CDX. The highcap bring the 3.5 into region of being able to be compared with the CDX - but only to see how big the gap is. And, of course, you can XPS the CDX.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but I think until I had the 3.5 and had listened to it for some time I could not really appreciate what the other sources could do. It helped me 'get my ear in' as it were.

Having said all that - I have now decided that the best way to Nirvana is to just save up for a CDSII/XPS and have done with it.

Hope this helps
Jonathan

For Edwin

Sorry about this. I just had to ask Eric for more info and this was the only way without starting a new thread.

Now that I can concentrate having woken up properly. I had a CD3.5 and a Hicap on home loan probably about 6 or 7 months ago. I used the CD3.5 with and without the Hicap and frankly didn't think it worth the money. For me the Hicap made no improvement to the CD3.5. I haven't tried a Flatcap. I posted about this on the old forum. The opinion from contributors to the forum was that these things 'grow on you' over time. You would notice an improvement existed after REMOVING the power supply had you been using it long enough. I did try this concept by removing my power supply from the pre-amp (which I've used for years) and I must admit, I noticed a huge drop in performance so perhaps the notion is valid. Problem was that I could only have the gear on loan for 3 days. I didn't pursue it because I didn't think it was good enough value for money.

I think the CDX is a huge jump over a CD3.5. If you can afford the 3.5/hicap, wait a bit longer and go for the CDX.

Eric

Thanks for the clarificiation. I thought my e-mail address could be accessed by using the icon in the bottom right of my post. It's there for me and I haven't made any effort to remove it. I may try your idea, it sounds interesting.

Brian

[This message was edited by Brian on THURSDAY 02 November 2000 at 13:03.]

Eric,

Don't let the appreciation of your results depend on the opinions of others. The most common 'mistake' among audiophiles in my opinion.

Last year we did an experiment of this nature. At the time I had a Marantz CD17. A fine sounding and heavy build player. We wanted to know if preventing all kinds of vibration or resonance was the best route to follow. We dragged a nearly 400 KG (!) block of armoured concrete into the listening room. We used an small hydraulic lorry(?) to move the thing. Yes I know this is very silly but it was only for the sake of the experiment. We levelled the player with three thread-adjustable cones.

What da ya think? The player sounded like never before. Regardless of the rack, shelf, spikes or cones used. Now even this concrete block wasn't completely resonance free but it did had VEEEERY low resonance point. The player couldn't pass its own generated vibrations on to the concrete either. The sheer mass and density is too high. The sound quality improved so much in every aspect that it was almost scary.

So for me it's quite obvious, get rid of every single vibration you can. I leave the wizardry of singing racks and "we really don't know how it works" remarks up to others to put their money on.

Richard

I have the CD 3.5 hooked up to a used hicap which I bought for a mere $200, so the new CD3.5/used hicap combo was much cheaper than a CDX. I heard a CDX at a dealer and it certainly had a lot of drive and weight compared to a straight CD3.5.

Has anyone demo'd a CD 3.5 against a CD5? Is it worth the change? A Naim guy was talking to says the feedback he's getting is that the CD5 is better than a CD3.5/Flatcap.

got it. i think we are on the same plane.

thanks,

eric

write to me for anymore clarification and let me know your results.

eric

rulifson@cmgm.stanford.edu

Edwin

my take on the 3.5 with flat or Hi question is this. Yes, the Hi improved the naked 3.5 to a greater degree than the flatcap, but the difference to my ears was not as great. The overriding impression was that it was still a loooo-ong way (as in much further than £500-odd) behind a CDX. Whether a HiCap represents good vaule is down to your wallet, and your ears. I eventually voted with mine and purchased the CDX.

Rico - musichead