Did Thatcher kill the Tories? Will Blair kill socialism?
Posted by: Kevin-W on 04 October 2004
On Radio 4 on Saturday mornings, there is an eexcellent programme in which right-wing hack Simon Heffer interviews left winger veterans. The first one featured Dennis Healey, the most recent had the great political journalist Geoffrey Goodman, in his 80s but as astute as ever.
In the course of the interview, he said that the Tories' current woes were due to Thatcher, whose success in the late 70s and throughout the 1980s sowed the seeds of their ddestruction. Unfortunately Heffer didn't press him or get him to elaborate, but I think the gist of what Goodman was saying
was as follows:
Thatcher (and the Right's) triumph in the 1980s forced all major political parties to the right. While the Tories weren't looking, in the mid 1990s, New Labour stole (or were forced to steal) much of their old ground. THe Tories were forced so far to the right that they became unelectable, plus the fact they were tainted with the less pleasant aspects of Thatch's legacy and hence deeply unpopular with large sections of society. Now they find that they can't move - a drift to the left is out of the question, as is a move rightwards. The fact that recapturing the "glory years" of the Thatcher era is impossible adds to the Tories' confusion and psychological trauma, creating a vicious (although for British society, perhaps a virtuous) circle.
He [Goodman] hinted that Blair will probably do the same to the Labour Party, which isn't a completely improbable thesis.
Discuss
Kevin (Who: The Who By Numbers)
Posted on: 04 October 2004 by Geoff P
There are a couple of significant reasons IMO.
1) Thatcher had ample opportunty to demonstrate powerfull statesmanship and her strength of personality. The Falkland's was an "heroic" example of an opportunity to do this and the coining of the phrase the "Iron Maiden" did her no harm at all. She also had ample chance to reinforce this with the ongoing "Democracy against Communism" baqckground to her era.
2) Her own party ousted her and at the time there was some public acceptance that she was becoming too powerfull and dictatorial. However she was replaced by a succession of colorless non-personalities and the public began to recognise that Thatcher in spite of her domination of the party had shown drive and in general benefitted the economy of the country by her hardline approach to unionism etc.
Basically the Tories have lost the "glory days" by their own actions and in the process lost any confidence they might have held onto if they had managed to find a leader who could at least be strong and have chracter.
Blair certainly appears to be going down the same road and needs to watch out for Gordon, especially after his sidelining talk of the last few days
regards
GEOFF
The boring old fart
Posted on: 04 October 2004 by BigH47
Iron Maiden yes but on the back of a induced war. Still a re-election is worth a few hundred British lives and X thousands of Argentinians.
Wouldn't happen now ............doh!
Think its backfired(NPI) this time.
Howard
Posted on: 04 October 2004 by Geoff P
quote:
Iron Maiden yes but on the back of a induced war. Still a re-election is worth a few hundred British lives and X thousands of Argentinians.
Howard
You're being ironic ... right??
It's Deja -vu time but in a bad way right now. Err...I seem to remember slightly different circumstances with the Argentinians, who where presumably your "ïnducers", than Iraq.
regards
GEOFF
The boring old fart
Posted on: 04 October 2004 by JeremyD
I wonder if it's not perhaps a good idea to look at actual policies and the objectives behind those policies rather than speaking only in generalisations?
For example, it will take a lot to convince me that the minimum wage and the rearrangements of the tax/benefits system so that the families of the working poor are far better off than ever before are signs of Blair being a Tory rather than the exact opposite...
Re the Falklands: previous governments ensured that the navy kept the Falklands under guard. Thatcher's failed to do so. Deliberate? I like to think not. Incompetent? Definitely...
Posted on: 04 October 2004 by Bhoyo
The Argentine "invasion" of South Georgia was either a colossal failure of British intelligence, or a feint that succesfully suckered the Argentines into the bigger invasion. At the very least, it was a happy day for Th**cher, who vaulted from being the most unpopular prime minister in British history to a war heroine who, for some sad inadequates, can still do no wrong.
Regards,
Davie
Posted on: 04 October 2004 by oldie
Kevin,
The short answer to your question is yes, but iirc he never claimed to be a socialist.Politics in this country has always been a strange animal with historically the three main partys ie Torys, Labour, Liberals each taking their turn actully that should have been Liberals, Torys and then Labour the only thing then was , that there was actully a great differance between them all, now things have blended and become so homogeneous that it's very difficult to tell the differance between them, what with labour carring out Tory polices and getting through acts that Thatcher would have sacrificed Dennis for.
Now the Torys are trying to occupy the ground that the labour used to hold. But if you look at the past you will see its all about Buggins turn.
Sorry to be so cynical about it, but thats how it seems to go
oldie.
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by HTK
I think it was the Tories who killed Thatcher, as opposed to her killing them! Eighteen years is a long time under one party and if my memory serves correctly they changed the political and social landscape at a very high turnover rate from day one to year eighteen, never pausing and hardly ever failing to get policies through. It's left us in a post Tory state which can never be the same again no matter how long Labour have to 'fix' it.
I think some of us who were rooting for labour to win were overly optomistic about what could be achieved in a house which had not so much been redecorated as pulled down and rebuilt. And as pointed out already, it's all McPolitics nowadays - national governments make less of a difference. There's a giant void on the Left - which is in any case less releavent now than it's ever been.
If Labour policy looks like Tory policy rebranded it's got more to do with how far we've shifted since 1979 than labour trying to emulate the Tories. She really did a number on us. I believe that, to take one example, the changes made to the NHS are radical compared to what existed under the Tories. It's much closer to Bevan's origional templete and IMO was saved in the nick of time - but the end output hardly ever changes. And for all it's fairness and integraty, if the knock on result is poorer service to the voters (perceived or real) then it's not working.
Just for the record - I hate the Tories for what they did to us and how they hounded sectors of society, Demonising anyone who they believed was 'wrong' with the zeal of a Fleet Street hack with nothing on file and a deadline looming. We need to remember just how shitty it got - unless you were lucky enough to be white, rich and upwardly mobile.
All IMO. It's as subjective as Hi Fi!
Cheers
Harry
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by Dev B
The Tories have made three serious mistakes
1. Major did not discipline or boot ouut teh Euro Sceptics
2. The party did not vote for Ken Clarke or Portillo
3. They shoudl have nicked the Lib Dems Social agenda.
They are doomed, the Lib Dems or some dressed up anti-Euro, immigrant party will rise in it's place. The Lib Dems need to boot out that alkie Charles Kennedy and get a more progressive leader and they'll have a very good chance.
ps. I don't support any of the above
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by pingu
quote:
Originally posted by Dev B:
The Lib Dems need to boot out that alkie Charles Kennedy and get a more progressive leader and they'll have a very good chance.
Not sure if liking a drink is a reason not to vote for someone. I'd prefer Kennedy as PM to Blair any day.
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by Mekon
Has there ever been a ginger prime minister?
FWIW my scottish genetic inheritance has put me on the list for gene therapy when stem cell research comes up with a cure for the recessive ginger allele; I've always assumed it excluded me from high office.
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by reductionist
Thatcher was a Tory and may have killed the Toies. Blair is no socialist, he may mange to kill New Labour though.
