How much is enough?

Hi Ludwig
I'm going to have to think about this for a while, but on the spur of the moment a few thoughts come to mind. In the past 2 years I've lost two family members and they're greatly missed, on Boxing Day just gone I lost my closest and very best friend suddenly – I am still gutted. Clichés abound, but I've learned at close hand that life is very short, if someone values wine, art, music, people, travel, friends, family, food, or whatever, then that is their choice to enjoy for the short time we're around. This is not a pessimistic statement, but a statement of the fact. How much is enough – I don’t know the answer to that but its made me want to make the most of everything, and everyone should, whatever the monetary value.
Martin

I just watched the (extraordinarily good) film "The Life and Death of Peter Sellers".


A very lucky, talented and wealthy, exceptionally sad man.

Ludwig

For me it is simple. I want to be mortgage free and have enough return on any investment to replace my existing income and also allow for reinvestment to compensate for inflation.

That would allow me to give up work and provide an enhancement to my spending power to compensate for the additional free time I have (i.e my current mortgage payment)

At 4% nett this figure would be around £750k

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Originally posted by Ludwig:

Why does a sense of guilt escape the wealthy, when they know others can't afford the basics?

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I don't know whether I will still feel guilty about those afflicted by poverty if ever I become wealthy. As it stands, every time I dream about a 552/active 500 /DBL system the thought of spending that much money makes me a little queasy.

Poverty is politics, not scarcity. P.J. O'Rourke said it well when he observed that it is parodoxical ie: you can't solve poverty by giving people money.

Politics is everybody's problem. We may not get what we ask for from our politicians but we certainly keep what we tolerate.

I don't know what is enough. What I am aiming for, in terms of Naim, is still a lot of money.

A good question Ludwig.

Deane

I'm not familiar with the story of Peter Sellers.

Ludwig,
There is a old socialist saying that covers your question adequately and that is
"TO EACH ACCORDING TO HIS NEEDS"
oldie.

Ludwig,
I can only recommend that you go see the movie (assuming it gets released in the States). I'm not a great fan of so-called "bio-pics", but this is excellent, and was recommended by some critics I trust in the UK.
The central role (Geoffrey Rush) is uncanny and beautifully performed (Rush is Australian), and Charlize Theron as Britt Eckland is, er, satisfying on every front, so to speak. The real joy is that the script is genuinely funny in its own right, without only recourse to second-hand Sellers performance recreations (which it also does very well).

I cannot attest to its accuracy but it paints a picture of a bastard, but from the bastard's point of view. It is sympathetic and at the same time damning. A real tour de force. I should think Rush (and frankly Miriam Margoyles and John Lithgow as Seller's mother and Blake Edwards respectively) deserve nominations for acting awards.

Go see...

Rod

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Originally posted by Ludwig:
Why does a sense of guilt escape the wealthy, when they know others can't afford the basics?

What's the point of spending one's life buying expensive objects?

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Nobody comes closer, in my experience, to answering these questions than does Thorstein Veblen in his "Theory of the Leisure Class". Is the answer simple? No - nor is Veblen's treatment particularly accessible. It's a masterful work, though, if you can wade your way through.

Available to read or download online (!!) here:

Theory of the Leisure Class

I'll never have enough, but if I can be (for the most part) debt free and comfortable that'll do me.

Cheers

Harry

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you can't solve poverty by giving people money.

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If you repeat that quote to a wealthy industrialist, politician or land owner he may well agree, but the people that don’t know where there next meal is coming from may differ. It always seems the wealthy know what the less well off need.

As for the question of how much is enough, well IMO it depends where you are starting from. If you ask the people mentioned before i.e. the starving homeless they would likely be happy with regular guaranteed food and shelter in a safe environment, ask “Long time Dead” and it would be “around £750k” (I use this as an example not to imply that there is anything wrong in his assessment) the answer is that there is never enough, every one thinks they would be happier with a little bit more.

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Why does a sense of guilt escape the wealthy, when they know others can't afford the basics?

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People distort social realities in ways that suit there situations, this is true of all people. Just as criminals often justify there crimes by saying they did not believe it was hurting the victims because the insurance would pick up the costs, I believe that the wealthy legitimise wealth by convincing themselves that it does not make any difference to the poor. They say things like the former P.J. O'Rourke quote, and “you can’t solve there problems by just throwing money at them” of course giving to charity’s is an excellent way to press the reset button on consciences.

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What's the point of spending one's life buying expensive objects?

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Because it makes you feel good, but only for a relatively short time, then you need your next “retail fix” this is because it does not give any psychological or spiritual fulfillment.

"It is impossible to escape the impression that people commonly use false standards of measurement -- that they seek power, success and wealth for themselves and admire them in others, and that they underestimate what is of true value in life." (Sigmund Freud)

whilst this is a statement most (I think) would agree with, society has taught us that status matters. In the motoring section of a Sundays newspaper this weekend, Jeramy clarkson was taking a tongue in cheek look at the most acceptable car to be seen in at your childs public school. In the article he reveiled that during a speech day at one such school the local bobby did a reg. check on the cars in the car park , 25% were hired by the parents feeling that there regular cars didnt give the right impression. How insecure they must all feel, it is ironic that they are all probably trying to keep up with each other.

I am not saying I am immune from all this superficial consumerism, and I would like a pay rise, but sometimes it is good to look at if it is adding something to you happiness or well being, or is it just gorging on material things,

John.

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Originally posted by rodwsmith:
Ludwig,
I can only recommend that you go see the movie (assuming it gets released in the States).
Rod

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Unfortunately, HBO has got its mitts on this, and says the movie won't get a theatrical release here. Maybe that means it'll be seen on the telly eventually. It is being shown at the Aspen Film Festival, but that's a bit far from Seattle - even for a man of Ludwig's means.

Regards,
Davie

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Originally posted by John K R:

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you can't solve poverty by giving people money.

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If you repeat that quote to a wealthy industrialist, politician or land owner he may well agree, but the people that don’t know where there next meal is coming from may differ. It always seems the wealthy know what the less well off need.John.

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To be fair, O'Rourke (IIRC) made his statement based on the observation that, in the US, poverty rates seem to keep increasing even as spending on welfare programs increases. At the individual level, he may, of course, have been wrong - giving this or that poor person money can make them no longer poor. But as regards welfare ridding society of the scourge of poverty, he seems to have drawn a valid conclusion.

Again, that's just how I remember the spirit of his statement. It's been a number of years since I read O'Rourke. Really, really funny guy.

(edited for typo)

[This message was edited by jayd on Tue 05 October 2004 at 0:24.]

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Originally posted by Ludwig:
What's the point of spending one's life buying expensive objects?

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Spending one's life buying expensive objects - or buying expensive objects during one's life? It is a matter of measure and importance surely. To be able to buy expensive stuff is one thing, but for it to be everything is deluded. Different thing.
Fortunately I don't have such worries - I have children that fill me up with so much love that I don't have room for material desires - although material wealth just happens on its own somehow. If I do consider such things, it is to set up their lives as best I can - not because I feel they need to have it (and a part of me says they would be better off finding it themselves) but because I just can't help myself but do it for them.

The one thing missing from all the above is the impact on the planet when everybody's buying lots of "stuff".

Aldo Ludwig

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Originally posted by Bhoyo:
It is being shown at the Aspen Film Festival, but that's a bit far from Seattle - even for a man of Ludwig's means.

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You're right- I'd be out of breath and my legs would be jello after the first 50 miles.

We live in a cynical age when politicians (rich men who, sub rosa, represent a rich class) argue to re-election about who best will uplift the struggling poor, or at best help keep the middle class afloat; when TV and magazines devote an ever-increasing % of their capacity to revealing how many $millions CEOs or movie stars spend on a house or even a party; adverts push material solutions to our existential angst 24/7. It's no surprise, therefore, that we of the developed West should feel a little queasy, and confused.

Irony: I am aware that the salary I earn puts me in the top 5-10% of the worlds' earners; yet, in the social milieu in which I swim, I'd be considered (by some) a loser. I literally have everything I need; a modest paid-up flat, a running car, access to health care; a wonderful extended family & friends, opportunities to travel (when I can afford it); memories of a miss-spent youth trying to become a rock star (now THAT's something that only happens in rich countries)...but unless you're visibly making a succesful grab at the brass ring, you're below consideration.

I have a (distant) acquiantance who was one of the original 50 or so MicroSoft employees, now retired, who is so riddled with guilt as a result of his good fortune that he agonizes about buying anything for himself; his 1st wife divorced him because he wouldn't spend much on her, either (good riddance, I say!). He now lives in a modest split-level home in a down-market neighborhood, has remarried someone who runs charities in the Third World. I think he's given over $50,000,000 away...and is still haunted. But, he sticks to the idea that, well, enough is enough; if there were more people like him, maybe the awful state of U.S. karma might be assuaged...but then, I think good & evil in the world is a zero-sum game, and there will always be those who suffer, and always those who do try to good works, occasionally, to relieve the suffering. The trick is to be one of the latter, at least once in awhile, no matter what ones' station is.

Ludwig, I've got more than enough, and this thread has reminded me to be thankful.

Buying decent hifi kit, however, has a special exemption from the Dalai Lama.

For me, "enough" is more or less as bhazen's defined it: food when needed, clean water, health insurance, comfortable home, transportation, clothing, and a few luxuries based on interests and staying sane- my hifi and music collection, occassional nights out and vacations abroad, and my bicycle. It's the excess that concerns me, and I define that as the point where one is voraciously consuming goods just for the sake of consuming goods- replacing goods not out of necessity but out of uncontrollable want, and keeping pace with peers. It's at this point where I get very uncomfortable WRT environmental consequences and WRT comparing to living standards in other countries I've visited, and very conscious of what I could do instead to make someone else's life easier while maintaining my own very comfortably. I think I once said something similar in a "downgrading" thread.

I hope it's understood that my intention isn't to criticize individuals' lifestyles but to provide just a wee bit of food for thought. I think people wrapped up their own professions' and/or economic niches sometimes lose touch. I know I do.

[This message was edited by Ludwig on Tue 05 October 2004 at 7:06.]

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Irony: I am aware that the salary I earn puts me in the top 5-10% of the worlds' earners

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I have no idea what that amount is, but I also have a sneaking suspicion that being in the top 5-10% doesn't necessarily mean riches if you take into account the majority of the world who live below what the US and UK might deem 'the poverty line' - insofar as income is concerned.

I earn fairly indifferent money for my skills and experience, working as I do for a greedy corporate, but did spend several years doing fairly lucrative contract work. Compared to the likes of many on this forum, it's still probably relative peanuts, but if I look to others I know or see around me I realise that my position is not so bad. To someone in many other countries I would seem extravagantly wealthy, but compared to most people here I am at best of average- or slightly-under-average means.

I think that having enough is simply a state of mind; I suspect most people here will never have enough as it's an attitude and a lifestyle thing. If we were the sorts of people who could 'have enough' of a thing, I suspect far less of us would have climbed quite as high up the Naim ladder.

Personally, I want to be entirely mortgage free before I hit 40 (I have time, thankfully) and living comfortably within my means. Once the mortgage is paid off, that basically amounts to 'food, heating, occasional socialising, the odd holiday'; if need be, hifi doesn't really matter to that end. It's a 'nice to have, no problem if I have to stick with the Nait'...

John

An overdeveloped bank balance and an underdeveloped moral and or spiritual side to your character may often lead to problems.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AlexG:
To put a quantum on this....a million squid would probably do it.

Sounds a bit fishey to me
Sorry!!I couldn't resist it
oldie, who has no money now so "enough" is just what Iv'e got

On average I get the urge to buy new Naim gear to the tune of £19,000 every four years (great product lifecycle chaps), plus I like a new car every 18 months (typically another £10K in depreciation loss). Add to that normal beer consumption expenses of £40 per day plus home expenses of £2K a month gives me the need for ... £50K per annum after tax. Assuming an investment return of 4% and inflation at 5% and tax at 40%, I make that a bit over £2.8million

shit, better start buying sony gear.

cj

pingu

keep with Naim - drink less beer

Naim - £19k every 4 years
Beer - £58k every 4 years

So doing a recalculation you could easily afford to send me the £ 750k I need !!

(If anybody would like to give me a cheque so I can conduct my life experiment - PM me. I am sure some of the seriously good accountants can manage to find that much in tax-deductables for those with serious incomes to relieve their guilt)

Ok, begging over - back to work......

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Originally posted by Top Cat:

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Irony: I am aware that the salary I earn puts me in the top 5-10% of the worlds' earners

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I have no idea what that amount is, but I also have a sneaking suspicion that being in the top 5-10% doesn't necessarily mean riches if you take into account the majority of the world who live below what the US and UK might deem 'the poverty line' - insofar as income is concerned.

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I'm a van driver; earn a couple bucks over the minimum wage. To the beautiful & powerful in Hollywood, Manhattan or D.C., I'm invisible. Still, I feel quite wealthy when I visit somewhere like India or Mexico. I think the global perspective is essential, in part because I think the U.S. is heading for some sort of enormous comeuppance, political and economic. I see very humble people in those countries living fulfilled lives with a fraction of what I've got.

Off topic slightly, are you all serious about having 1-2 million whatevers to retire? I know that me and most of my boomer friends, even those more well-heeled than I, aren't even close to that kind of savings; admittedly, my peer group put more emphasis on livin' large now (then) vs. saving for retirement, kid's college, unexpected health issues etc. To even attain $1 million, I'll be working until age 90, probably. I also think that the U.S. stock/bond/real estate market has passed its golden age, and boomers cannot expect that inflation of their financial assets will carry them out to pasture.

[This message was edited by bhazen on Tue 05 October 2004 at 18:52.]

[This message was edited by bhazen on Tue 05 October 2004 at 18:54.]

Ludwig,

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The one thing missing from all the above is the impact on the planet when everybody's buying lots of "stuff".

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I try to minimize my footprint on the planet. And my use of resources is fairly low by U.S. standards –

* my wife, daughter and I are all vegetarians
* we live in a ~1000 square foot townhouse, within a few miles of work
* we share one car (a Corolla)
* we buy at least half of our produce locally from a food co-op
* we walk as much as we can
* we haven't, for example, replaced the 14-year-old 20-inch TV just because newer and better models are available
* and so on and so on...

Suffice it to say that although I have a nice hi-fi, camera, and (recently) computer, I don't spend like a drunken sailor at every opportunity just to keep up with the Smiths and Joneses.

Admittedly, when I buy something that matters to me -- hi-fi, camera, computer -- I do a "Mick Parry" and buy quality, since buying on the cheap often costs more in the long run. (A good example is the G5 Mac I bought the other month. An iMac would have been more than adequate, but I'm hoping that by spending roughly $1k more I'll get a few more years out of it, so in the long run I'll save money and use fewer resources.)

All the same, I was rather shocked to find out that if every person on the planet lived the way I do, we would need 2.2 earth's to support my level of consumption and absorb my level of waste.

(If you're interested in estimating your own "ecological footprint," the amount of environment needed to produce the goods and services necessary to support a particular lifestyle, click on this link and work through the questions.)

Back to your original question -- How much personal wealth and how many personal assets are enough? I don’t know, but it's clear that even modest, so-called environmentally friendly lifestyles in the developed world are unsustainable over the long haul.

Joe