How much is enough?

Posted by: ErikL on 03 October 2004

The fortress thread had me thinking of something I often discuss with friends and family-

How much personal wealth and how many personal assets are enough?

Why does a sense of guilt escape the wealthy, when they know others can't afford the basics?

What's the point of spending one's life buying expensive objects?

I'm being serious here.

Frugal Ludwig
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by bhazen
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Petrik:
Back to your original question -- "How much personal wealth and how many personal assets are enough?" I don’t know, but it's clear that even modest, so-called environmentally friendly lifestyles in the developed world are unsustainable over the long haul.



Joe, I think what you're doing is admirable...

Back in the 70's, the Club of Rome (a sort of early environmental think-tank) worked out that the Earth could only sustain 100 million people indefinitely in the average Western style of consumption. I think the Greeny sort of people are dreaming if they think they can persuade many people in the West to downsize their lifestyles, let alone those in developing Asia. So, time is running out. I'll admit to being selfish enough to hope that we've got another half-century at my rate of consumption...

[This message was edited by bhazen on Tue 05 October 2004 at 19:44.]
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by Joe Petrik
bhazen,

quote:
I think the Greeny sort of people are dreaming if they think they can persuade many people in the West to downsize their lifestyles, let alone those in developing Asia. So, time is running out.


Cheers.

I recall reading somewhere -- but I can't remember the source -- that the middle class in China and India are much greater in number than the middle class are in the U.S. So even if they consume at one-quarter the U.S. rate for a give standard of living, it's clear we had all better figure out how to live sustainably real soon.

Joe
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by Martin D
Mud hut® - isn’t that the new Naim listening room they’re about to launch Big Grin
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by Joe Petrik
Tom,

quote:
I now have an image of us sitting in a mud hut with no furniture but a fully stacked Naim rig in the corner.


Guess Mana is out, then. I mean, how do you spike mud?

Joe
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by Roy T
quote:
I recall reading somewhere -- but I can't remember the source -- that the middle class in China and India are much greater in number than the middle class are in the U.S. So even if they consume at one-quarter the U.S. rate for a give standard of living, it's clear we had all better figure out how to live sustainably real soon.



Quite right, in both countries you have a drift to the cities which tends to divide both countries and fuel a growing middle class. You only have to look at China and the amount of raw materials (internal and external) plus recycled junk from the West that is being drawn inwards to feed the growing economy. If only 1% of China's population were to lust after a new car do you think the World's capacty for making cars could keep up with the demand? Do you think China could control all the people who could not get a nice new car when the want one?

I reckon the answer to both questions is a big fat NO.
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by ErikL
Joe,

I admire the things you do to minimize impact. I aspire to some of those, but also share a few- vegetarian, supporting organic co-ops and public markets (a great thing about Seattle), minimal fancy purchases, and drive a '91 Accord. My friends think I'm a freak for being so excited about the free 2-zone bus pass in my new job. My car will rot. Its fun to me trying to figure out how to live simply but comfortably, how to support sustainable businesses, how not to be a suburban sprawler, etc.

Greeny Ludwig
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by ErikL
Eh?
Posted on: 05 October 2004 by Clay Bingham
Friends

I have to say, this is one of two recent discussion threads that have made me feel good about belonging to this forum. This past few days I have been quite impressed by the many public expressions of affection from husbands and boyfriends in the "Wives and Girlfriends" thread. Far different subject here, but the same thoughtfulness. Many great comments.

Thanks
Clay
Posted on: 06 October 2004 by Nigel Cavendish
While I, on the other hand, wonder why you are all so smug and self-righteous.

Everybody who posts here is materially wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice of your average guy in the "developing" world - but I don't see any of you actually doing much about it.

"I could retire on £2mill" - jeez!

cheers

Nigel

Posted on: 06 October 2004 by matthewr
There all a bunch of cheapskates Nigel. I'm absolutely fucking loaded but choose to keep working as frankly £2m wouldn't keep me in Bollinger and diamonds beyond the end of next week.

Matthew

PS I feel this is a thread that only a certain former member could do full justice to. I think we'd have been treated to a full on "Do you realise I am considerably richer than you?" outburst.
Posted on: 06 October 2004 by Joe Petrik
Nigel,

quote:
Everybody who posts here is materially wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice of your average guy in the "developing" world - but I don't see any of you actually doing much about it.


Just curious, how do you know what I or anyone else has done about poverty in the developing world.

Joe
Posted on: 06 October 2004 by pingu
quote:
Originally posted by long-time-dead:
pingu

keep with Naim - drink less beer

.


What else should I do whilst listening to my Naim gear?

PS for beer, read beer, wine or whatever

[This message was edited by pingu on Wed 06 October 2004 at 11:58.]
Posted on: 06 October 2004 by reductionist
quote:
Originally posted by pingu:
quote:
Originally posted by long-time-dead:
pingu

keep with Naim - drink less beer

.


What else should I do whilst listening to my Naim gear?

PS for beer, read beer, wine or whatever

[This message was edited by pingu on Wed 06 October 2004 at 11:58.]


whu do you need to do anything other than listen to it?
Posted on: 06 October 2004 by ejl
Joe, thanks for that environmental footprint link -- cool.

One of the maddening things about the U.S. cities that have grown dramatically in recent decades (i.e., those in the south and west) is that they have been so completely designed around the car that alternative modes of transportation (public or bicycle) have been made difficult to impossible.

When we moved to our current location, my wife and I were forced by this kind of non-planning into a difficult decision; live in a bad neighborhood and continue to go without owning a car, or live in a nicer area and be forced to drive.* We chose the latter, and now live the "commuter lifestyle" that neither of us particularly wanted.


* I know it may seem like you can bicycle anywhere, but trust me, if I tried to ride to work from where I live now, I would be killed.
Posted on: 06 October 2004 by Nigel Cavendish
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Petrik:
Nigel,

quote:
Everybody who posts here is materially wealthy beyond the dreams of avarice of your average guy in the "developing" world - but I don't see any of you actually doing much about it.


Just curious, how do you know what I or anyone else has done about poverty in the developing world.

Joe

Hey Joe,
I don't know what you or anyone else is doing about it. There is nothing in this thread apart from fair words. Perhaps you are all too modest?

O.K. so what are you doing about it?

cheers

Nigel

Posted on: 06 October 2004 by Berlin Fritz
Tesco reported record half year profits of £822m last week, and Chief Executive
Terry Leahy, a dour former shelf-stacker got the usual plaudits from the City
moneymen. Leahy puts his success down to giving the public what it wants; and in
recent weeks has invested millions of pounds of shareholders money in an
advertising campaign which purports to show that Tesco offers consistently low
prices "every little helps", as the jingle says. The facts, however, seem to
suggest quite the opposite. Two weeks ago the Sunday Times business section led
on a story showing that Tesco had raised its prices on hundreds of items while
at the same time claiming in its ad campaign that it was slashing prices by more
than £30m. This is a confidence trick that the store has used to brilliant
effect over the years.
The price-cuts on low-volume items - 2p off L'Oreal ginger
hair colouring, for instance - are paid for by hikes on best selling staples.
Although a Tesco spokesman insisted that some of the price rises were on
"seasonal products", The Sunday Times pointed out that this hardly applies to
Heinz baked beans (up from 69p to 78p for a four-pack) or McVities chocolate
digestives (up 6p) or indeed boxes of Tetley tea-bags (up 8p). Needless to say
Tesco was furious at the coverage. But the story was not new. It followed a
Spectator article earler this summer in which former City hack Dominic Prince
did a price comparison between shopping locally at a fruit and veg market at a
farmers shop and at a local Tesco. He found that Tesco charged an astonishing 40
percent more for the equivalent goods. "We are all being done", he concluded.
"We are being misled, brainwashed cheated and we don't even know that it's
happening. The trick has yet to be exposed, but there is nevertheless a very
clever marketing trick being perpetrated and we are all the victims of the
rip-off". Surprisingly Tesco did not react to this assault. A spokesman claimed
that he hadn't even seen the piece. But that was certainly not the case several
weeks later when Prince wrote a similar article for the London Evening Standard
demanding copies of reciepts and verification of the purchases made. She warned
that "in the absence of a satisfactory response" the store would sue. The
Standard was having none of it (not least because Prince had indeed kept all the
receipts, which proved beyond doubt that Tesco was overcharging)and sent the
retailing Goliath a swift rebuff in the style of Arkell v's. Pressdram, Tesco
immediately instructed the Mayfair solicitors M Law to sue for libel. On 6
August the firm sent off a fiery missive to the Standard claiming that "your
allegations about price amount to a very serious libel of our client". For the
appalling slur on Tesco's "honesty and business ethics", the company was
entitled "to seek very sunstantial damages". The Standard sent another letter
telling Tesco to bugger off, offering again to do the cost comparison with Terry
Leahy present. It also wondered why the company was not threatening to sue the
Spectator. Since then the Standard has heard nothing and the Sunday Times has
heard nothing, even though all three papers have stated unequivocally that Tesco
is ripping off its customers.
Tesco has wrought revenge on the Sunday Times by
refusing to let the business section interview Leahy, instead offering the
great man to the rival Sunday Telegraph instead. It will be interesting to see
how much of the lucrative Tesco advertising ends up in the pages of the Sunday
Times in future. Meanwhile, there have been several complaints to the
advertising standards authority (ASA) about the misleading nature of Tesco
adverts, particularly one that appeared ironically enough in the Sunday Times.
The ad boldly stated that "for eleven years now we've been adding more and more
products (to the value range) in a concerted effort to help our customers spend
less." But he ASA decided that "readers are likely to understand that the claim
is a reference to their 'Value' product only and not a definative comparitive
claim." This is doubly absurd since Tesco does indeed make "definitive
comparative claims" and has itself complained to the ASA and Ofcom over an
advert from Asda claiming that it is the cheapest supermarket. Having drawn
attention to its pricing policy, Tesco must now put up and risk getting into a
McLibel situation, or shut up and effectively admit that it does indeed charge
too much. How else do you make £822m profit in six months?

Taken from Guess where (issue 1116 Octoger 2004)

N.B.
By putting this story here, I obviously feel that it belongs here showing
that greed can be so very back-firing sometimes. A certain purchase manager (or
ex), as well as possibly quite a few others will not see, nor understand why
I've bothered to put this here either, seeing Tesco's practice as pure
marketing & business savvy, and nobody's forcing anybody to shop there, no more
than anybody has to read certain thread they don't find funny or interesting
(Tony's Choice Innit) and why the fuck does Fritz persist with all these
rantings (or rantins as Mr Anan would say). A large percentage of folk in this
cell are, I suspect although careful with their spending in respect of not going
daft too often, probably don't worry much about a few pence here and there on
Beans etc, and wouldn't shop somewhere else just for a small saving, though a
few less sovs on a naim set up is a different ball game no doubt, I concur.


Graham George Von Foundermemberoftheskynewsbillyconnollyappreciationsociety²

Woosh: Micky the fish reckons that the sale of nails should be banned to all
people under the age of 50 in case they're missused in the use of terrorist
explosive devices for evil porpoises. Razz
Posted on: 06 October 2004 by Joe Petrik
Nigel,

quote:
O.K. so what are you doing about it?


Apart from what I already mentioned -- trying to live lightly off the land -- my wife and I also give to several organizations. Admittedly, we're not poster children for charitable giving, but we do give regularly to the following organizations:

* Foster Parents Plan
* The United Way, through monthly paycheque deductions at work
* Dian Fossey Gorilla Fund
* WWF

We also ask relatives, if they are inclined to give gifts for birthdays and Christmas, to take what they would have spent and contribute to one of the above organizations instead.

I haven't offered my services (writing, editing, photography, layout and design) to an organization since moving to the U.S., but I used to volunteer for a local environmental group in London, Canada -- which reminds me that I should get off my lazy arse and start doing that again. My wife is currently a mentor with Girls in Science, a program that encourages girls in Kentucky to pursue careers in science.

Joe
Posted on: 07 October 2004 by Alex S.
Joe, please excuse the flippancy but what careers are girls from Kentucky presently pursuing?

Berlin, thanks for that, I've been following the story too. Another Tesco trick just now is to emblazon price slashes of 1p or 2p on everything so we get the impression they're really trying to do their little bit to help. Also, in every price comparison I've ever seen them do they have yet to charge less than ASDA but somehow rejoice in the fact that they charge the same.

Perhaps I should take my custom to the bargain basement of M&S.
Posted on: 07 October 2004 by domfjbrown
At the risk of derailing this thread, I think personally that Nature WILL find a way to solve the overpopulation of earth from the "virus" that is man (as called in The Matrix).

It failed with HIV/AIDS, but it WILL find another way of wiping us out - I'm sure of it.

That aside, how CAN people in Britain live properly WRT sustainable farming etc? My housemate was saying just recently that a hell of a lot of our produce is now imported (much more than I realised anyway!), and due to the overpopulation here, there will never be the means to produce enough food for the numbers of people already here.

Also - I'm sure I read somewhere that at the current rate of population expansion, the WORLD will see 1984-Etheopia style drought and starvation by 2023 - due to food and water supplies simply being overstretched.

This is assuming that the torpedo warheads on the sunk Russion sub Consomolets (sp?) don't rust through first - there's enough radiotion on board to permanently kill all living life on earth, once that leaks into the sea water.

BTW - it would take 2.1 earths to support a person like me. That's quite scary, since I don't drive, walk everywhere etc. It has to be the meat thing, and electricity.

__________________________
Don't wanna be cremated or buried in a grave
Just dump me in a plastic bag and leave me on the pavement
A tribute to your modern world, your great society
I'm just another victim of your highrise fantasy!
Posted on: 07 October 2004 by Berlin Fritz
Good health is ample innit.

Enuff is Enuff.
Posted on: 07 October 2004 by Joe Petrik
Alex,

quote:
Joe, please excuse the flippancy but what careers are girls from Kentucky presently pursuing?

Soap makin', cloth weavin', critter wrestlin', bourbon distillin'... you know, stuff Ellie Mae did on the Beverly Hillbillies.

_________________________________________



Dom,

quote:
At the risk of derailing this thread, I think personally that Nature WILL find a way to solve the overpopulation of earth from the "virus" that is man (as called in The Matrix).

It failed with HIV/AIDS, but it WILL find another way of wiping us out - I'm sure of it.


You've mentioned something like this before in a similar thread. I asked you then to elaborate but you seemed to have missed it. Would you please explain how the earth knows it's overpopulated and, having that knowledge, does something about it. At the very least, it assumes the planet has some sort of global sentience and consciousness and, using that awareness and intelligence, the ability to act -- all which would be news to me, not to mention scientists throughout the world.

Joe
Posted on: 07 October 2004 by bjorne
Joe, not awareness or intelligence, but nature is normally trying to keep a "balance". For example, to many predators- to little prey-not enough food- number of predators goes down etc. Simplistic yes but there is no denying that overpopulation has a severe negative impact which leads to starvation, pollution and so on.

And viruses and bacterias are becoming a bigger threat to us.
Posted on: 07 October 2004 by Joe Petrik
quote:
For example, to many predators- to little prey-not enough food- number of predators goes down etc. Simplistic yes but there is no denying that overpopulation has a severe negative impact which leads to starvation, pollution and so on.


I understand what you're saying, Bjorne. But Dom wasn't talking about straightforward predator-prey dynamics, shitting ourselves out of house and home, or anthropogenic activities destroying and simplifying ecosystems so that bacteria and viruses gain the advantage. He was suggesting that Nature -- the one with a big N -- has it out for Homo sapiens because we're prolific consumers and breeders. For that kind of planetary feedback system to work, it presupposes certain properties that the planet and its collective biota simply do not have. That was my point.


quote:
And viruses and bacterias are becoming a bigger threat to us.

Indeed. If this subject interests anyone, this book is a great place to start.

Joe
Posted on: 07 October 2004 by Alex S.
quote:
Soap makin', cloth weavin', critter wrestlin', bourbon distillin'... you know, stuff Ellie Mae did on the Beverly Hillbillies.


Phew. I thought they were all frying chicken.
Posted on: 07 October 2004 by ErikL
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Petrik:
...my wife and I also give to several organizations. Admittedly, we're not poster children for charitable giving...

I haven't offered my services... which reminds me that I should get off my lazy arse and start doing that again.

I do a bit of giving $, but have found that organizations are more in need of people's time than money. Unfortunately I often have less time than is required.

As an aside, a few months ago I watched an interview of Bill Gates (discussing the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation) and I was pleasantly surprised, given his wealth and potential of living in the clouds, by how knowledgeable he is of the world's health and educations issues and by the size of his heart*. I had a similar feeling listening to Andy Grove a few years ago.

* Then I cruised by his place on a booze cruise only to learn he has a private salmon hatchery, but no big boats. His 29,000 sq ft (or whatever) home is also constructed of recycled lumber.

[This message was edited by Ludwig on Thu 07 October 2004 at 20:01.]